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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012805 times)
Mota
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July 20, 2013, 08:51:29 AM
 #3961

*note disclaimer, I own no hardware (other than temporary stock), have no preorders and no affiliation*

Something is wrong here with this simulation. Its a side view of the board at the bottom, with package and chip slightly above, with a 4 heatpipe heatsink. The left, blue side is showing an ambient intake of 25C, exhausting at ~50C.

Now, look at the chip area; its deep oranges at best. Their own simulation is telling us the chip's heatspreader [not even the chip itself] is somewhere between 125-150C. I don't know a consumer grade chip that gets even close to these temps, nor materials creating using conventional techniques that would withstand 24/7 at these temperates.

Its hard to tell without a larger image but it looks like an auto scaled legend, so its reporting a spot temperature somewhere on the chip of 223C. I am not aware of the limitations of the exact simulations they ran, but if mine came back and showed that I would be weeing myself.

tldr: Either that simulation is made up, fake, wrong, set up horrifically - or the chips are running @150C+.

I think
223 isnt Centigrade are Fahrenheit .  

   223F are 106C.

^What he said. But seriously, It's a 28nm Chip, they run pretty low temperature-wise. AND you can pretty much figure it's Fahrenheit since max. temp. is at over 200 degree; at that point the soldering would melt in Celsius...

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bitpop
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July 20, 2013, 08:54:09 AM
 #3962

Maybe it's cold fan air?

I think
223 isnt Centigrade are Fahrenheit . 

   223F are 106C.

Nope. It is centigrade. Note the temperature of the input air: 25C, which is average room temperature. Who on earth would run a consumer device simulation with ambient temps of 25F/-4C ?!

If it was fahrenheit, KnCMiner would be telling us their device requires below zero ambient temperature Smiley


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rangedriver
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July 20, 2013, 08:57:21 AM
 #3963

Cold fan air at -4C??
bitpop
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July 20, 2013, 09:00:05 AM
 #3964

Next to an ac?

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July 20, 2013, 09:02:30 AM
 #3965

Next to an ac?

There is no house A/C that blows air at 25F.
Do you realize how cold 25F is? It turns water into ice!
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July 20, 2013, 09:06:30 AM
 #3966

Lol well they have our money, if it was a scam they'd be gone by now. Only thing I can think of is disinformation ;-)

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mrb
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July 20, 2013, 09:06:58 AM
 #3967

They have *your* money, not mine  Wink
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July 20, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
 #3968

No they have yours too

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Meizirkki
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July 20, 2013, 09:31:28 AM
 #3969

I too was looking at the simulation.. Looks more like 125 than 150 but yea, still way too high.

KnC =BFL_ng  Grin
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July 20, 2013, 10:30:06 AM
 #3970



Exactly.  Even companies like AMD or Nvidia, with the best thermal engineers and ASIC designers on the planet, barely manage to approach 200-250W consumed by the GPU ASIC chip only (even then, a good 50W+ is consumed by the rest of the card, so the GPU ASIC itself is closer to 200W, not 250W).

KnCMiner is so ridiculously underestimating the complexity of their technical choices... There is absolutely no way they will ship a ~250W 100Gh/s chip (their claims) in October 2013. Mark my words.

It is mind-boggling to see the number of people who accept KnCMiner's claims of feasibility without blinking an eye.

KnCMiner will either spectacularly fail to deliver anything. Or they will have to underclock their chips and increase the number of chips per device to match their performance numbers per device (like BFL did with the Single SC).


GPUs have power constraints, look at server grade processors if you want to what's possible. eg. The Intel Itanium (Hondo) CPU is 260watts TDP, a Sun SPARC T4 240watts,  and KNCminer are quoting 250watts for the complete Mercury system not just the CPU.


erk
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July 20, 2013, 11:05:50 AM
 #3971

I too was looking at the simulation.. Looks more like 125 than 150 but yea, still way too high.

KnC =BFL_ng  Grin

Armchair experts again.

I am quite sure the foundry and chip makers will tell KNCminer what is too hot based on the properties of the materials they are using.

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July 20, 2013, 11:06:54 AM
 #3972

GPUs have power constraints, look at server grade processors if you want to what's possible. eg. The Intel Itanium (Hondo) CPU is 260watts TDP, a Sun SPARC T4 240watts,  and KNCminer are quoting 250watts for the complete Mercury system not just the CPU.

Exactly, you need to be Intel or Oracle (or AMD or Nvidia) to be able to design such a high TDP chip, especially in such a short timeframe. By the way Hondo has 2 dies, not 1; not even Intel could manage 260 watt on a single die...

There is a reason neither Intel nor Oracle continued to sell such high TDP chips. They have to bin the top 5% of their CPUs from the foundry, to find the ones that are stable despite the heat, and it's just too expensive and complex to design systems able to power and cool such chips.

And in Mercury, at least 80% of the power will be consumed by the chip alone. 20% will be lost to AC/DC and DC/DC power conversion steps, and maybe 1% in ancillary support components.
Meizirkki
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July 20, 2013, 11:11:42 AM
 #3973

I too was looking at the simulation.. Looks more like 125 than 150 but yea, still way too high.

KnC =BFL_ng  Grin
Armchair experts again.
I am quite sure the foundry and chip makers will tell KNCminer what is too hot based on the properties of the materials they are using.
my armchair expertise is indeed expecting some bad news from chip makers Grin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=259319.msg2766019#msg2766019
erk
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July 20, 2013, 11:21:28 AM
 #3974

GPUs have power constraints, look at server grade processors if you want to what's possible. eg. The Intel Itanium (Hondo) CPU is 260watts TDP, a Sun SPARC T4 240watts,  and KNCminer are quoting 250watts for the complete Mercury system not just the CPU.

Exactly, you need to be Intel or Oracle (or AMD or Nvidia) to be able to design such a high TDP chip, especially in such a short timeframe. By the way Hondo has 2 dies, not 1; not even Intel could manage 260 watt on a single die...

There is a reason neither Intel nor Oracle continued to sell such high TDP chips. They have to bin the top 5% of their CPUs from the foundry, to find the ones that are stable despite the heat, and it's just too expensive and complex to design systems able to power and cool such chips.

And in Mercury, at least 80% of the power will be consumed by the chip alone. 20% will be lost to AC/DC and DC/DC power conversion steps, and maybe 1% in ancillary support components.
The  number of dies is irrelevant, that's just a cost cutting measure to save having to make another type of wafer. What's relevant is the 12 year old PAC611 package could handle a TDP higher than the total KNCminer system is expected to draw, so it's not venturing into the unknown like you are trying to make out with your armchair FUD effort.

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July 20, 2013, 11:46:39 AM
 #3975

The  number of dies is irrelevant, that's just a cost cutting measure to save having to make another type of wafer. What's relevant is the 12 year old PAC611 package could handle a TDP higher than the total KNCminer system is expected to draw, so it's not venturing into the unknown like you are trying to make out with your armchair FUD effort.

Wrong, the PAC611 package cannot handle 260W. (This theoretical number is merely published because Hondo has 2 dies that could in theory draw 130W each.) In practice, Intel had to throttle the dies so that Hondo never draws more than 170W total:

The challenge was to design a dual Madison (Itanium 2) processor module that would use no more then a single madison/power pod reference design provided by Intel (ie, 170W).

The mx2 module is designed to run each processor so that it consumes about 65 percent of the max power that it could theoretically draw.
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July 20, 2013, 12:34:16 PM
 #3976

rangedriver: Please stay in the music industry. Don't buy a KnC miner.
rangedriver
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July 20, 2013, 12:36:13 PM
 #3977

rangedriver: Please stay in the music industry. Don't buy a KnC miner.

You know what guys.. I think you're right.

Moment of revelation. I'm outta.

End.
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July 20, 2013, 12:39:50 PM
 #3978

Wasn't the original device supposed to be water-cooled? Would that make a difference?
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July 20, 2013, 12:40:49 PM
 #3979

People, stay on topic and kindly keep your personal banter to PMs. It's getting tedious receiving new post notifications and opening a topic only to find a completely irrelevant post with some personal insult thrown in someone's direction. Now, where was that Ignore button, I might need to use it more often.

In a way, KnC were right in not releasing too much info. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Wasn't the original device supposed to be water-cooled? Would that make a difference?

I think they always showed air-cooled schematics on their web site.

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July 20, 2013, 01:03:13 PM
 #3980

People, stay on topic and kindly keep your personal banter to PMs. It's getting tedious receiving new post notifications and opening a topic only to find a completely irrelevant post with some personal insult thrown in someone's direction. Now, where was that Ignore button, I might need to use it more often.

In a way, KnC were right in not releasing too much info. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Wasn't the original device supposed to be water-cooled? Would that make a difference?

I think they always showed air-cooled schematics on their web site.

They could never release enough info to keep peeps happy.

They can control what info they keep from competitors.

It's hilarious watching trolls (with alternative vested interests?!) fall to pieces.

Twitchy bums, much?

*I think* with more than a little optimism Marcus and crew are versed and skilled enough to prepare for such eventualities as heat. The huge mf heatsink they are using is overkill. He said this. Also 1000w is max, again, overkill to ensure it works.

There is no watercooling as hosting sites won't permit water cooling in data centres.

Watercooled options will be developed for consumers at a later date if you want less heat and noise.

Still, please continue. Observation of sudden negative armchair 'experts' with 'professional' insight makes for an interesting take as to why you prowl upon a thread you have no vested interest in...or do you?? (Note: none of this is directed at nightingale or nemo1024)

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