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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007349 times)
erk
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July 20, 2013, 01:15:19 PM
 #3981

Wasn't the original device supposed to be water-cooled? Would that make a difference?
Water cooling is not anymore efficient, unless the radiator is passive convection cooled. Most setups have pump and fans which consume power, and kind of spoil the efficiency. Good for tight areas though. I can see why WC would be handy on a GPU mining rig where the cards obstruct airflow from each other. The KNCminer drawings show it's definitely air cooling with a large fan on each ASIC heat sink, plenty of room for fans, and the ASIC modules seem to be placed so they don't block each others airflow.


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July 20, 2013, 01:21:44 PM
 #3982

Mars

This device will be the first mass produced product and is available for purchase in the next few days. The key details around this device are as follows:

    Over 6GH/s
    48x IC CYCLONE IV FPGA 115K on board chips  See the sites below for more details on the chips we will be using in our Mars product.
    30% Improvement in hashing rate over standard Implementation
    Fan cooled with 48 heat sync’s and fans plus two case fans producing a cooling tunnel across the chips
    Modular design (we will carry this design throughout all of our products)
    USB attachment (software will be provided)
    Shipment begins on mass in just over 2 months.
    Earn coins while you are waiting in the queue for Jupiter
    External ATX power will be required (we will provide a recommended list)
    Upgrade protection built in to any Mars purchase with vouchers for up to $2000 off of any Jupiter purchase.
    Last but not least, any purchase of the Mars product automatically reserves you the same place in the order queue for the Jupiter product. The queue reservation will last 30 days.
    For more information about the chips used you can use the following links
        http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=544-1468-ND
        http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=18&y=12&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=EP4CE115F23C8N


Jupiter

This device is being designed in parallel by the OrSoC engineers. It will offer industry leading performance and power consumption per GH. The final specifications for this device are being ironed out now but we can confirm the following:

    Minimum 250GH/s per device
    7000-8000 USD predicted price
    48 Chips (which are being designed exclusively for KnCMiner by ORSoC).
    An additional gain of 30% more hashing when the advanced algorithms provided by ORSoC are applied.
    Water cooled setup.
    Modular Design allowing for expansion at a later date.
    Embedded Linux device to allow for standalone mining.
    Shipment begins in early autumn.

Kuroth
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July 20, 2013, 01:23:05 PM
 #3983

5 Month old Artical....   Silly Trolls..


I too was looking at the simulation.. Looks more like 125 than 150 but yea, still way too high.

KnC =BFL_ng  Grin
Armchair experts again.
I am quite sure the foundry and chip makers will tell KNCminer what is too hot based on the properties of the materials they are using.
my armchair expertise is indeed expecting some bad news from chip makers Grin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=259319.msg2766019#msg2766019

SirWizz
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July 20, 2013, 01:29:55 PM
 #3984

More dog poo... I think some of the folks here can not interpret the graphics correctly. I can not either because I don't know if it shows a single core simulation or the whole chip and frankly it is not my current area of expertise however, I highly doubt KNC would release an OrSoc simulation that shows they are unable to understand basic thermal chip simulation and therefore properly account for the heat that needs to be dissipated.

Based on the 4-core design and depending on how many engines are running in each core I would expect the chip thermals to be spread fairly evenly across the chip. Also, this being a big chip you get more real estate for dissipating the heat. So, let's dumb it down for the rest of us, if you partition this chip into four sections and assume 60W of heat needs to be dissipated on an area of 765 mm^2, I would not think that is outrageous at all, in fact it is quite reasonable (I remember that some of the old Thunderbird AMD chips had a die size of around 120 mm^2 and were dissipating 60-70W of heat).
erk
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July 20, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
 #3985

Mars

This device will be the first mass produced product and is available for purchase in the next few days. The key details around this device are as follows:

    Over 6GH/s
    48x IC CYCLONE IV FPGA 115K on board chips  See the sites below for more details on the chips we will be using in our Mars product.
    30% Improvement in hashing rate over standard Implementation
    Fan cooled with 48 heat sync’s and fans plus two case fans producing a cooling tunnel across the chips
    Modular design (we will carry this design throughout all of our products)
    USB attachment (software will be provided)
    Shipment begins on mass in just over 2 months.
    Earn coins while you are waiting in the queue for Jupiter
    External ATX power will be required (we will provide a recommended list)
    Upgrade protection built in to any Mars purchase with vouchers for up to $2000 off of any Jupiter purchase.
    Last but not least, any purchase of the Mars product automatically reserves you the same place in the order queue for the Jupiter product. The queue reservation will last 30 days.
    For more information about the chips used you can use the following links
        http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll?Detail&name=544-1468-ND
        http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=18&y=12&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=EP4CE115F23C8N


Jupiter

This device is being designed in parallel by the OrSoC engineers. It will offer industry leading performance and power consumption per GH. The final specifications for this device are being ironed out now but we can confirm the following:

    Minimum 250GH/s per device
    7000-8000 USD predicted price
    48 Chips (which are being designed exclusively for KnCMiner by ORSoC).
    An additional gain of 30% more hashing when the advanced algorithms provided by ORSoC are applied.
    Water cooled setup.
    Modular Design allowing for expansion at a later date.
    Embedded Linux device to allow for standalone mining.
    Shipment begins in early autumn.

Those specs are nothing like what you can order, so I would disregard them totally. For starters the Jupiter is 400GH/s not 250GH/s. Secondly it's 4 chips not 48.



ujka
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July 20, 2013, 01:38:08 PM
 #3986

Sorry, that was an answer to the guy asking about water cooling in 'original design'. And yes, first published spec. were with water cooling.
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July 20, 2013, 02:10:13 PM
 #3987

*note disclaimer, I own no hardware (other than temporary stock), have no preorders and no affiliation*

Something is wrong here with this simulation. Its a side view of the board at the bottom, with package and chip slightly above, with a 4 heatpipe heatsink. The left, blue side is showing an ambient intake of 25C, exhausting at ~50C.

Now, look at the chip area; its deep oranges at best. Their own simulation is telling us the chip's heatspreader [not even the chip itself] is somewhere between 125-150C. I don't know a consumer grade chip that gets even close to these temps, nor materials creating using conventional techniques that would withstand 24/7 at these temperates.

Its hard to tell without a larger image but it looks like an auto scaled legend, so its reporting a spot temperature somewhere on the chip of 223C. I am not aware of the limitations of the exact simulations they ran, but if mine came back and showed that I would be weeing myself.

tldr: Either that simulation is made up, fake, wrong, set up horrifically - or the chips are running @150C+.

I think
223 isnt Centigrade are Fahrenheit . 

   223F are 106C.

^What he said. But seriously, It's a 28nm Chip, they run pretty low temperature-wise. AND you can pretty much figure it's Fahrenheit since max. temp. is at over 200 degree; at that point the soldering would melt in Celsius...

Its not Fahreneit, who on earth would simulate room temp at -4C. Yes that is the point, the simulation is telling them the chip will overburn.... that is that the heatsink and airflow is unable to remove the heat being produced, hence reaching ridiculous temps.

Just looking at the design of their heatsink, that's something that could get rid of 90-120W depending on the airflow and ambient temps. If you look at the heatsinks designed for 100-140W, they weight approaching 2kg of pure metal, have 4-8 heatpipes, have a heat-sink, and a hell of a lot more fins.

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July 20, 2013, 02:39:28 PM
 #3988

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-24

That's great news for fans of KNC.  Meaning they will release a competitive product in Sept, sell it until the ROI drops and then design and release a new competitive product according to the network hash rate in 2014.   We all know these units will not be worth the current price in 6-8 months so what KNC is saying is really good for the customers.

Just remember to save enough BTC to get the next version and you will continue to thrive.

It also provides some information for non customers who feel it is too late to purchase.  You can save up and purchase a Gen2 device which should be profitable.  Just get in early next time.




It sounds like KNC is thinking they are the only ones making miners and will be the only ones shipping. Having them take a three month break without shipping is nice for them....but other companies will take advantage of that and use that against them, no?



Jesus your IQ is under 100.  Just. Stop. Posting.

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July 20, 2013, 04:36:11 PM
 #3989

...Watercooled options will be developed for consumers at a later date if you want less heat and noise....

Oh god that physics...

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July 20, 2013, 04:39:33 PM
 #3990

More dog poo... I think some of the folks here can not interpret the graphics correctly. I can not either because I don't know if it shows a single core simulation or the whole chip and frankly it is not my current area of expertise however, I highly doubt KNC would release an OrSoc simulation that shows they are unable to understand basic thermal chip simulation and therefore properly account for the heat that needs to be dissipated.

Based on the 4-core design and depending on how many engines are running in each core I would expect the chip thermals to be spread fairly evenly across the chip. Also, this being a big chip you get more real estate for dissipating the heat. So, let's dumb it down for the rest of us, if you partition this chip into four sections and assume 60W of heat needs to be dissipated on an area of 765 mm^2, I would not think that is outrageous at all, in fact it is quite reasonable (I remember that some of the old Thunderbird AMD chips had a die size of around 120 mm^2 and were dissipating 60-70W of heat).

Yes what they've done doesn't make sense, and I'm pretty sure I'm interpreting right. I'm still yet to see another interpretation (other than saying its in fahrenheit, which its not) or even how you could attempt to interpret it any other way.

Either they've uploaded the wrong slide, or they dont understand it, or something else is seriously wrong.

ujka
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July 20, 2013, 04:57:57 PM
 #3991

Now that there is new data on die size, I updated the GH/wafer table:
Code:
wafer(mm)   chip         process(nm)  die(mm^2)   GH/s(per die)      DpW   GH/s(per wafer)
300         KnC              28        441,00          25            128          3200,00
300         bitfury          55         14,44           2           4717          9434,00
300         bfl              65         56,25           4           1167          4668,00
300         asciminer(?)    130         17,50           0,333       3877          1291,04
300         avalon          110         16,13           0,282       4214          1188,35
300         asciminer(?)    130         21,7            0,333       3112          1036,30
(DpW, die per wafer; yield percentage not taken into account)
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July 20, 2013, 05:11:27 PM
 #3992

Still, please continue. Observation of sudden negative armchair 'experts' with 'professional' insight makes for an interesting take as to why you prowl upon a thread you have no vested interest in...or do you?? (Note: none of this is directed at nightingale or nemo1024)

Roll Eyes

I call this, wisdom Smiley
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July 20, 2013, 05:18:36 PM
 #3993

More dog poo... I think some of the folks here can not interpret the graphics correctly. I can not either because I don't know if it shows a single core simulation or the whole chip and frankly it is not my current area of expertise however, I highly doubt KNC would release an OrSoc simulation that shows they are unable to understand basic thermal chip simulation and therefore properly account for the heat that needs to be dissipated.

Based on the 4-core design and depending on how many engines are running in each core I would expect the chip thermals to be spread fairly evenly across the chip. Also, this being a big chip you get more real estate for dissipating the heat. So, let's dumb it down for the rest of us, if you partition this chip into four sections and assume 60W of heat needs to be dissipated on an area of 765 mm^2, I would not think that is outrageous at all, in fact it is quite reasonable (I remember that some of the old Thunderbird AMD chips had a die size of around 120 mm^2 and were dissipating 60-70W of heat).

Yes what they've done doesn't make sense, and I'm pretty sure I'm interpreting right. I'm still yet to see another interpretation (other than saying its in fahrenheit, which its not) or even how you could attempt to interpret it any other way.

Either they've uploaded the wrong slide, or they dont understand it, or something else is seriously wrong.

If you are correct and make this seem as bad as it really is (I unfortunately do not know enough) - are you going to contact KnC directly with your concerns? I know that a lot of issues brought up in this thread get lost in the dust.

I don't have a vested interest, so I don't particularly care. If someone wants to forward my raised points to them and let me know their response (PM me, I'm not watching a 200 page thread Tongue) then I can comment again. There is something seriously wrong there though.

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July 20, 2013, 06:09:30 PM
 #3994

Sorry, that was an answer to the guy asking about water cooling in 'original design'. And yes, first published spec. were with water cooling.

Yes, but if you read anything subsequent to when they changed the specs, or even in the report I wrote up, you would have seen that Sam's hands were tied; data centres will not host water cooled set-ups. They just don't want to know. KnC still aim to design a block so you can add such cooling subsequent if running at home, but they see most peeps choosing hosting in the long run. This is also why there has been a dimensional change to fit standard 19" rack mount format...

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July 20, 2013, 06:11:32 PM
 #3995

...Watercooled options will be developed for consumers at a later date if you want less heat and noise....

Oh god that physics...

Ambient heat.

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July 20, 2013, 06:49:13 PM
 #3996

...Watercooled options will be developed for consumers at a later date if you want less heat and noise....

Oh god that physics...

Ambient heat.

'If you want less ambient heat'... that still isn't close to making sense.

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July 20, 2013, 07:48:56 PM
 #3997

I think
223 isnt Centigrade are Fahrenheit .  

   223F are 106C.
Thought about that but it's really doubtful. Freezing air coming in at 25F? Nah. We could use an explanation from Knc on what this represents and what's being assumed in this simulation, but I doubt it's that.

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July 20, 2013, 07:55:10 PM
 #3998

On a slightly different track: What about KnC making second generation USB miners? USB 3.0 specs, 0.9A, 1+GHs, priced at around 50-80 dollars. Would it be feasible with regard to production costs, power consumption, heat dissipation?
If yes, that would be a nice entry-level alternative miner to Erupter and K1, which would still be useful at higher difficulties, while promoting decentralisation of hashing. And a great gifting gadget. Smiley

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July 20, 2013, 08:08:12 PM
 #3999

On a slightly different track: What about KnC making second generation USB miners? USB 3.0 specs, 0.9A, 1+GHs, priced at around 50-80 dollars. Would it be feasible with regard to production costs, power consumption, heat dissipation?
If yes, that would be a nice entry-level alternative miner to Erupter and K1, which would still be useful at higher difficulties, while promoting decentralisation of hashing. And a great gifting gadget. Smiley
Won't happen for a couple reasons. One, they don't want the shipping and support headache of having thousands of customers buying a cheap device. Secondly, their chip isn't conducive to USB mining--it's large, huge power draw and heat-spreading needs. The two philosophies go hand in hand.

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July 20, 2013, 08:12:47 PM
 #4000

On a slightly different track: What about KnC making second generation USB miners? USB 3.0 specs, 0.9A, 1+GHs, priced at around 50-80 dollars. Would it be feasible with regard to production costs, power consumption, heat dissipation?
If yes, that would be a nice entry-level alternative miner to Erupter and K1, which would still be useful at higher difficulties, while promoting decentralisation of hashing. And a great gifting gadget. Smiley
Won't happen for a couple reasons. One, they don't want the shipping and support headache of having thousands of customers buying a cheap device. Secondly, their chip isn't conducive to USB mining--it's large, huge power draw and heat-spreading needs. The two philosophies go hand in hand.

I did not mean the chip that they are currently developing, but another one, which they could develop in parallel, but still on 26nm process.

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“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
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“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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