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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3039471 times)
mwizard
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March 08, 2015, 10:22:32 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2015, 10:32:35 PM by mwizard
 #39881


Quote

Since I’m confident in the possibilities to win a litigation against KnC (albeit, there are no guarantees in this business), I like to investigate if you would be interested to participate in a new class action lawsuit, based on the following deal:
 
   • You pay no initial retainer or any other legal fees, such as court fees.
   • If you win, your retainer will be 30 % of what’s reclaimed in the lawsuit.
   • Payment of possible KnC legal fees (in case of a loss) will be split in the group, thus minimizing the individual risk and financial exposure.

So you are saying if you win you keep 30% of what is reclaimed from KNC,  but if KNC wins we, as individuals, are legally committed to pay any possible KnC legal fees.  

You need to explain your proposal in more detail for it to be taken seriously, in particular what individual legal obligations would be in the case of a loss.  I suspect any KNC legal bill would not be small.
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March 08, 2015, 10:57:07 PM
 #39882

A miner is not a consumer product.

Male bovine feces and everyone knows it.

http://youtu.be/bxOHAha7MAk?t=45s
"So, ok, KnCMiner as the name implies is making mining equipment, is that right?" Sam Cole: "Yeah, sure, we're making ASIC mining equipment and we're selling to the general public. We're selling fully functional devices that anyone can come and buy."

KnCMiner Firmware - Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Neptune/Titan
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March 08, 2015, 11:28:21 PM
 #39883

The lawyer is most likely a scammer just hoping to make money from individuals because the case most likely will be a loss.

If the lawyer is confident then he will work for free and if he wins he gets to keep 30%.

If the lawyer isn't confident then he should just charge an hourly fee and if he wins, he just gets his hourly rate. And the clients get to keep 100%.

This litigation makes no sense in my opinion.

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Zelek Uther
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March 08, 2015, 11:41:17 PM
 #39884

Looks like it's mostly the new Bonus Miners selling for that price. They intentionally come without thermal pads on the VRMs, plus a 2pin fan jammed onto the 4pin header. So the VRMs cook nicely between 95-110C in a cool environment. Then maybe you'll get "lucky" and that rigged fan connector will pop off unexpectedly and the thing will really burn up. I was posting updates daily about it on the forum, which is now mysteriously offline, lol.

They even cheaped out on the paint job. It used to be silver painted with the black logo, now it's just bare metal with the black logo. The paint was cheap before anyways, even some goo gone would take it off.
Is anyone running a bonus 2-for-1 Neptune? I got mine a week ago, but haven't taken it out of the box yet. I'm planning to run it, I just don't have the Power Supplies yet.

Has anyone technical done a tear-down evaluation of the bonus Neppys? The quote above makes me worry about running it in my home...

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March 08, 2015, 11:58:27 PM
 #39885

A miner is not a consumer product.

Male bovine feces and everyone knows it.

http://youtu.be/bxOHAha7MAk?t=45s
"So, ok, KnCMiner as the name implies is making mining equipment, is that right?" Sam Cole: "Yeah, sure, we're making ASIC mining equipment and we're selling to the general public. We're selling fully functional devices that anyone can come and buy."

Bothem line is that they deliver a product , we al remember butterfly do we? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB55EIEEeqI
If you want to just cale do that in your own country , the only effect will be that KNC will no longer ship to US customers , same way US customers can not get a european bnk account not verry usfull to anybody is it Wink
for those with a more constructive state of mind this the the fan
"Noctua NF-A14 industrialPPC 3000 PWM" you need to use as replacement in your bonus miner.
Iam sorry for the haters but KNC is not a scam.




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March 09, 2015, 12:01:08 AM
 #39886

Electricity is more expensive from mining

notthematrix
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March 09, 2015, 12:12:42 AM
 #39887

Looks like it's mostly the new Bonus Miners selling for that price. They intentionally come without thermal pads on the VRMs, plus a 2pin fan jammed onto the 4pin header. So the VRMs cook nicely between 95-110C in a cool environment. Then maybe you'll get "lucky" and that rigged fan connector will pop off unexpectedly and the thing will really burn up. I was posting updates daily about it on the forum, which is now mysteriously offline, lol.

They even cheaped out on the paint job. It used to be silver painted with the black logo, now it's just bare metal with the black logo. The paint was cheap before anyways, even some goo gone would take it off.
Is anyone running a bonus 2-for-1 Neptune? I got mine a week ago, but haven't taken it out of the box yet. I'm planning to run it, I just don't have the Power Supplies yet.

Has anyone technical done a tear-down evaluation of the bonus Neppys? The quote above makes me worry about running it in my home...

Yes I am!
works great ,,, get a proper power supply I used 2x the EVGA 1300 G2  supernova.
Use the connectors KNC provided to connect it to the Nova.

The bones neppys have a weaker 2 wire fan.
replace theese with the Noctua NF-A14 industrialPPC 3000 PWM http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en
theese fans cost about Eu26 a peace , you need 5 one for every cube.
Replacement is easy and strait foreward.

Beagle advice , if you upgrade or downgrade firmware always disconnect al the cubes!
this will save the live of the beagle.
if you have questions you can PM me... as you can see Iam running all miners on 500MHZ ,,, first you test the cores on 475 MHZ
see what core gets relativly hot , if core is > 85c lower volatge 2 steps fe -0.0539v , hot cores do need less voltage.
if core starts up properly tweak it to 500 with same lower Voltage,
Have questions? let me know.




 

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teslaman
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March 09, 2015, 12:47:03 AM
 #39888

Iam sorry for the haters but KNC is not a scam.
They aren't a scam, they are just lying crooks who deliver crap 7 months late, because they loathe their customers, just like BFL, actually. You know, the KnC customers who paid for KnC's massive mining farm that they promised they would never build to more than 5% of sold hardware.

Is anyone running a bonus 2-for-1 Neptune? I got mine a week ago, but haven't taken it out of the box yet. I'm planning to run it, I just don't have the Power Supplies yet.

Has anyone technical done a tear-down evaluation of the bonus Neppys? The quote above makes me worry about running it in my home...
I finally got mine up and running after replacing/re-flashing the BBB that they delivered to me in a physically broken state. I'm not leaving it running though until my heatsink order arrives. I typically post on the KnC forum, but I might add the info here too, since it looks like KnC is playing damage control atm.

The 2pin fans are indeed slower than the KnC branded fans, but probably close to the speed of the original BitFenix. The Noctuas are a decent substitute, but they are just too expensive for the marginal cooling difference that they made. I had a Delta 92mm, 160CFM rigged on one Cube as a test and it actually cooled much better than the Noctua, which is above 159CFM. The Delta is a very loud fan though, vacuum cleaner level of noise. I haven't tried it, but I wondered if funneling the 140mm down to 92mm would have the same effect.

I've also trimmed the now pointless E heatsinks down to a fat T, to make room for the heatsinks I ordered. If it works well, I'll post the details for everyone. If the KnC forum comes back up before I get around to posting more, the "Bonus Neptune - Formula 1 Pinto" thread is where I have all the pictures posted.

KnCMiner Firmware - Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Neptune/Titan
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March 09, 2015, 01:36:11 AM
Last edit: March 09, 2015, 01:46:30 AM by notthematrix
 #39889

Iam sorry for the haters but KNC is not a scam.
They aren't a scam, they are just lying crooks who deliver crap 7 months late, because they loathe their customers, just like BFL, actually. You know, the KnC customers who paid for KnC's massive mining farm that they promised they would never build to more than 5% of sold hardware.

Is anyone running a bonus 2-for-1 Neptune? I got mine a week ago, but haven't taken it out of the box yet. I'm planning to run it, I just don't have the Power Supplies yet.

Has anyone technical done a tear-down evaluation of the bonus Neppys? The quote above makes me worry about running it in my home...
I finally got mine up and running after replacing/re-flashing the BBB that they delivered to me in a physically broken state. I'm not leaving it running though until my heatsink order arrives. I typically post on the KnC forum, but I might add the info here too, since it looks like KnC is playing damage control atm.

The 2pin fans are indeed slower than the KnC branded fans, but probably close to the speed of the original BitFenix. The Noctuas are a decent substitute, but they are just too expensive for the marginal cooling difference that they made. I had a Delta 92mm, 160CFM rigged on one Cube as a test and it actually cooled much better than the Noctua, which is above 159CFM. The Delta is a very loud fan though, vacuum cleaner level of noise. I haven't tried it, but I wondered if funneling the 140mm down to 92mm would have the same effect.

I've also trimmed the now pointless E heatsinks down to a fat T, to make room for the heatsinks I ordered. If it works well, I'll post the details for everyone. If the KnC forum comes back up before I get around to posting more, the "Bonus Neptune - Formula 1 Pinto" thread is where I have all the pictures posted.
KNC offerd you a new BBB+controller!
I saw the treath on the knc forum...
The only thing you needed to do is replace the fans with this moddel! http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=84&lng=en&set=1


Size      140x140x25 mm
Connector      4-pin PWM
Bearing      SSO2
Blade Geometry      A series with Flow Acceleration Channels
Frame Technology      AAO
Rotational Speed (+/- 10%)      3000 RPM
Min. Rotational Speed (PWM, +/-20%)      800 RPM
Airflow      269,3 m³/h
Acoustical Noise      41,3 dB(A)
Static Pressure      10,52 mm H2O
Max. Input Power      6,6 W
Max. Input Current      0,55 A
Voltage      12 V
MTBF      > 150.000 hr
Warranty      6 years
Ingress Protection      IP52
Material      Fibre-glass reinforced polyamide
Motor type      Three-phase

You do NOT need to modify the cooling in any orther way!

you don't NEED to temps are fine , if you tweak voltage properly.
Proof 2 miners running full speed.

But in your case hope your plan works.



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March 09, 2015, 02:05:18 AM
 #39890

A miner is not a consumer product.

Male bovine feces and everyone knows it.

http://youtu.be/bxOHAha7MAk?t=45s
"So, ok, KnCMiner as the name implies is making mining equipment, is that right?" Sam Cole: "Yeah, sure, we're making ASIC mining equipment and we're selling to the general public. We're selling fully functional devices that anyone can come and buy."


rant below (feel free to skip or put me on /ignore)

well what i find confusing is on KNC's main page...if you go to btc miners it says 'sold out' if you go to scrypt miners 'sold out' as expected...no drama there..

but

when you go to 'cloud mining' it also says 'sold out' ....no frigging way could there be enough 'newbies' buy GH at the prices they were offering
so the only conclusion is they are mining 'most' of their data hall to $$$ as fast as possible to usd for themselves. but that 'flumoxed' me big time...

I suppose they simply are like other cloud mining operations and simply 'suspended' such because of the price
for now.....but imho....from the way they are acting...they may imho never offer even 'cloud mining' again ...just keep all this new 16nm chips
for themselves and whatever newbie (does not know about knc's real reputation) IPO $$$ to themselves

whatever.....their forum has also been down for 3 days or more wonder if that is toast.....likely that will be the next step....I've never
quite figured out why they have kept it up ...much easier to isolate customer complaints if you make them go thru email and they no
longer have a 'working voice phone line' that has been mysteriously broken ...for a while i guess......always 'trust' a
multi-million dollar operation that does not answer its 'voice line' because it is 'broken' lol Smiley....jeez they are not even 'trying' to keep
up appearances to the consumer...

them IPO boys are gonna get played as suckers like the consumer purchasers....wait for it...

anyway my 2c worth


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March 09, 2015, 04:07:31 AM
 #39891

Btw, the room temp/intake air on those 95-110C temps was 75F/24C. Imagine how hot that thing would get in a hot room! Smmmoookin'!

KNC offerd you a new BBB+controller!
I saw the treath on the knc forum...
The only thing you needed to do is replace the fans with this moddel!
They shipped a BBB with a chip dangling from its traces, it wasn't broken in shipping. Typical zero quality control. Yep, they did offer, after I posted about it and mentioned them having no warranty. Anyone familiar with their typical RMA process knows what a nightmare that is. Some people get lucky, a lot don't. As usual, I would have had to pay the shipping, about $25-30 minimum and had to wait about 2-3 weeks. Instead, I spent $45 on a NIB BBB RevB6, got it in a couple of days and had it flashed and working in no time. Well worth the cost to avoid dealing with them.

As I have told you several times, I already bought 5 of those fans for my first Neptune back in July 2014. I personally don't want to buy more, they don't do enough for the cost IMO. They are frankly overkill too. The waterproofing is totally unnecessary in this application except to add expense. If the heatsinks work out, they are like $10-15 cheaper per Cube than those Noctuas and they are premium quality.

All that said, the entire point is, we shouldn't have to do a thing. I didn't for the original Neptune. But, in typical KnC fashion, trying to pay tribute to the FrankenJup fiasco I guess, they cheaped out and delivered a miner that will likely brick itself with heat if people run it as is. Then people like you and Diskdoc come along, spewing KnC's criminal line about the miners suddenly being "business miners", when everyone except a n00b knows that they sold them as consumer miners. Makes me wonder if you both are shills for KnC, or employees. Others posted about it on their forum too, but I really hammered the point home with pictures and screenshots, so it doesn't surprise me that cheerleaders suddenly came out of the woodwork. All it does is energize me that much more to fight back, so keep it up, you fuel my fire, lol.

rant below (feel free to skip or put me on /ignore)
No worries, I tend to type a lot with an inability to keep it short, so I'm used to people complaining too, lol.  Tongue KnC is all about their own greed at the expense of customers, so you can bet that nothing will be selling until it is an opportune time to suck more money from uninformed people, or the mentally insane, lol.

KnCMiner Firmware - Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Neptune/Titan
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March 09, 2015, 07:41:39 AM
 #39892

A miner is not a consumer product.

Male bovine feces and everyone knows it.

http://youtu.be/bxOHAha7MAk?t=45s
"So, ok, KnCMiner as the name implies is making mining equipment, is that right?" Sam Cole: "Yeah, sure, we're making ASIC mining equipment and we're selling to the general public. We're selling fully functional devices that anyone can come and buy."

Thank you for this.  Wink
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March 09, 2015, 08:56:19 AM
Last edit: March 09, 2015, 09:11:02 AM by notthematrix
 #39893

Quote
No worries, I tend to type a lot with an inability to keep it short, so I'm used to people complaining too, lol.  Tongue KnC is all about their own greed at the expense of customers, so you can bet that nothing will be selling until it is an opportune time to suck more money from uninformed people, or the mentally insane, lol.

To start with a thing as btc you need to be a bit crazy Wink
Yes knc cheaped out on the fan , its called planned obsolescence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfbbF3oxf-E (watch video for what is planned obsolescence)
its the known fight between the developers and the CEO.
All consumer products are shortened in live.
I would not be supprised if they were forced to do so by investors.
You see it with all products phoneś etc etc...
all consumer products are timed , printers have a max print counter , DVD writers have them , laptops have them too read here   http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Lockups-Freezes-Hangs/HP-Pavilion-dv5z-1200-wont-start-blinking-LEDs/td-p/451329 so noting new.
A consumer is supposed to waste more and more stuff on borrowed money , this is how the current economy works and how it destroying the planet this is why I give BTC a chance.
and the good news is   "yes you can reset those counters!"
so your printer , DVD writer  or laptop or miner comes back to live or live can be extended its "magic" LOL
.



 

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March 09, 2015, 03:23:44 PM
 #39894

Got this email..

Quote
I sincerely hope that you have come to a satisfactory conclusion in your dealings with KnC. If not, you may be interested to read further.
 
I’m currently working full time in Sweden pursuing 15 individual litigation's against KnC. In this matter, I collaborate with Magnus Daar, who is, as you may know, pursuing a class action lawsuit against the company.
 
It has come to my attention that many dissatisfied KnC customers, who would like to pursue legal actions against the company, refrain from doing this, simply because they find the costs prohibiting.
 
Since I’m confident in the possibilities to win a litigation against KnC (albeit, there are no guarantees in this business), I like to investigate if you would be interested to participate in a new class action lawsuit, based on the following deal:
 
   • You pay no initial retainer or any other legal fees, such as court fees.
   • If you win, your retainer will be 30 % of what’s reclaimed in the lawsuit.
   • Payment of possible KnC legal fees (in case of a loss) will be split in the group, thus minimizing the individual risk and financial exposure.
 
The main focus in the lawsuit will be on Titan 14L (batch 1) and Titan 16L (batch 2), including KnCs refusal to comply with mandatory Swedish consumer protection laws (the right to cancel an order and to get a refund for any reason whatsoever), marketing of unrealistic ”false” delivery dates and late delivery of products, shipping of products against customer wishes, selling dangerous (fire hazard) and non certified products, selling faulty and non performing products vs advertised, e.g less hash rate and higher power consumption than advertised.
 
Please let me know if you have a Neptune. I may pursue a separate class action lawsuit for this machine, if enough interest.
 
To get as far ahead in the litigation ”race" against KnC as possible, I like to go as fast on this one. Please let me know if you are interested ASAP… and/or if I can be of any other assistance.
 

From?
If he wants I can refer someone to him.

Joakim Strignert / Grundare, Jur kand, Civ ek
+46 (0)708 19 88 91 / joakim.strignert@dinratt.se

7 people out of 15 people showed serious interest, including me. He needs 10-15 people.
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March 09, 2015, 04:19:58 PM
Last edit: March 09, 2015, 05:24:13 PM by teslaman
 #39895

All consumer products are shortened in live.
Kudos for finally admitting that it is indeed a consumer product. Smiley

A little crazy is a good thing, but as they say, doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome, is the definition of insanity. KnC screws their customers time after time. Giving them more money shows a desire for masochism, lol. Cheers, yeah, I know about planned obsolesce, only immoral companies use it. I have lots of tech that is 10-20 years old, or more, and it still works great, because the companies cared about quality and their customers. If a company uses PO, then people should rightly boycott them into the ground. But, you have to be vocal in your opposition to do so. Many people incorrectly label that as "whining", because they think they have no power, that they must just accept the droppings that are given to them. Common in countries that have little freedom. To that I quote, "Will you bite the hand that feeds you? Will you stay down on your knees?"

Frankly, I don't care if the CEO is the one messing things up, it doesn't excuse their actions. I would rather starve on the streets than work for such a shady, immoral person, but that's just me.

Like you say, it's destroying the planet and it will also destroy Bitcoin if we keep letting miner companies get away with it.

The forum is still down btw, so I'll get things organized and post them here. It seems way too arrogant to think, but could my thread have really scared them so? lol Maybe it's just freak coincidence, but it makes you wonder. I wonder because normally they just censor people on there, but for some reason, they have let me say a lot of critical things and even let me successfully destroy the rhetoric of their replies. Apparently, me suddenly dialing things up was too dangerous for just censorship, lol. Tongue

Edit: Here, let me first re-share the email from KnC that notthematrix kindly shared on KnC's forum:
Quote
Hi,
Apologies for the delay in reply. The bonus miners were shipped out without the thermal pads, as we found through further testing that there wasn't much of a difference between the miners with pads and without.
However due to the large amount of miners we produce and ship, we are not always able to source the same type and brand of cooling fan, it may be that the fans slightly different than before and do not have the same cooling capacity.
You can try to reduce the heat produced by the miner by setting the voltage of each die to a slightly lower value. In the drop down menu for voltage a higher negative value is a lower voltage.
As the miners being sent now are bonus, free miners there is no warranty and we are not able to supply spare or replacement parts.
If you have any further questions or doubts please do not hesitate in contacting us.
--
Now to break that down into what is likely obvious to many...

Apparently, they completely ignored what others pointed out on here a long time ago, that even a slight gap between that E heatsink and the thermal pad would cause the VRMs to get much hotter. No surprise there, add it to the list of ignored things.

They knew that they would need more parts nearly a year ago when they announced the 2-for-1: https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-87 yet they couldn't source proper parts in all of that time? Ridiculous.

By their full "no warranty" statement, it's easy to see why I reacted the way I did to my BBB being broken. Also, no warranty? They doubled our orders, which obviously means that whatever applied to our original order, applies to the Bonuses, unless it's specifically said otherwise. Even if there is no law protecting that, I think most honest people would agree that it is shady, immoral behavior, as usual and just adds to the legal defenses against them.

KnCMiner Firmware - Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Neptune/Titan
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March 09, 2015, 06:46:23 PM
 #39896

any news for TITAN Batch 2 delivery date?

any update regarding legal action against this company?
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March 09, 2015, 07:48:54 PM
 #39897

any news for TITAN Batch 2 delivery date?

any update regarding legal action against this company?

Info is few posts above.
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March 09, 2015, 09:07:04 PM
Last edit: March 09, 2015, 09:43:17 PM by notthematrix
 #39898

Quote
Frankly, I don't care if the CEO is the one messing things up, it doesn't excuse their actions. I would rather starve on the streets than work for such a shady, immoral person, but that's just me.
If they go bankrupt nobody will have anything expect for the lawyer Smiley
if they are scanners you wont get anything because they use this trick https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/bankruptcy_fraud in swedisch law  (f.e Hiding assets in bitcoin.)
and they are to small and in truble lawyers will only destroy them , so not very usefull in any way.
A good lawyer knows this and will offer no cure no pay if they were confident for a case.
so the best chance is wait and see , I had my bonus miner in the end it works quite well.


scammers will not deliver at all.





 



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teslaman
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March 09, 2015, 11:30:26 PM
 #39899

A miner is not a consumer product.

Male bovine feces and everyone knows it.

http://youtu.be/bxOHAha7MAk?t=45s
"So, ok, KnCMiner as the name implies is making mining equipment, is that right?" Sam Cole: "Yeah, sure, we're making ASIC mining equipment and we're selling to the general public. We're selling fully functional devices that anyone can come and buy."

Thank you for this.  Wink
My pleasure.  Grin

If they go bankrupt nobody will have anything expect for the lawyer Smiley
...etc....
I support pretty much any justifiable action people take against crooks, including that "punching Cole in the dick" bit, lol. We need to get back to the old days, when companies were put out of business for being crooks, not bailed out, or given a pass. We especially need to do this in the Bitcoin world, otherwise it is really no different than the current failing system.

Ok, here's all of the pictures in an album, breakdown to follow below: http://imgur.com/a/zQDSa

Here is how my controller arrived:

The box was fine, as you can see in another picture. It is in a static bag and under that cheapo plastic cover. No way that gets ripped off in transit. That did not stop KnC from claiming I was making a conspiracy out of it, since they "test everything before shipping".  Roll Eyes

Here is the inside of these Bonus Cubes. I had some fun with this one to keep from screaming:


This is the latest fan, looks like some unknown brand from China:

No idea what the CFM specs are on this thing. It is definitely not as good as the KnC branded one, whatever it is.

This is how I have modified the now mostly pointless E heatsink, to make room for some quality heatsinks:

I just marked it with a sharpie, stuck it in a bench vice, had at it with my RotoZip and sanded the edges. x5 Tongue

Here it is installed and tightened properly, with the VRM stickers removed:

In that Cube, I also swapped the fan out for a KnC branded one that I had laying around from my other Neptune's Noctua upgrade.

All five finished, waiting for their heatsinks.

I slightly messed up the one in the upper left corner, cutting it a bit too close to the one screw hole. No biggie, just annoys my perfectionism, lol. The heatsinks should be arriving tomorrow (Tuesday). I will post back with more pictures and updates on how that works out. In any case, I would have done these modifications even if I was only planning to upgrade the fan, since it means better airflow. Not to mention how slanted that E heatsink was put on there, causing a gap between the processor and cooler. Not. Good.

I added my initial temp tests to the album too, the ones I posted on KnC's forum, but I am going to skip those on here for the more recent ones. These are all after my modifications, so it could have run even hotter with the plate and stickers in the way.

Here is the stock temps of 3 of the Bonus Cubes, intake air temp at the time was 75F (24C):

I did not connect all 5 at once, since it would mean having to shutdown my other miner to connect them to the PSU. Fortunately though, all of my Bonus Cubes tested good, with decent undervolting capabilities.

Second temp test at -0.0586V undervolt:


Third temp test at -0.732V undervolt:


Final temp test at the maximum stable undervolting I could get with 500Mhz overclocking:


Eat your heart out, KnC. Tongue

KnCMiner Firmware - Mercury/Saturn/Jupiter/Neptune/Titan
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March 10, 2015, 12:39:07 AM
 #39900

fair deal ,, this are my results , did only undervolt the hottest dies.

only mod is the fan replacement to a NF-A14 industrialPPC-3000 PWM  at room temp ~20c fan speed ~75 %















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