[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[Deprived]

I just did a final full repurchase at face value on LTC-ATF.B1.

DMS held 9071 of them so should, after conversion from LTC receive exactly 90.71 BTC.

For now that 90.71 is reserved in my own wallet - seems unwise right now to transfer it into BTC-TC until we know what we're doing.  It'll stay listed in daily reports as being LTC-ATF.B1 - but is actually cash BTC now (the LTC received are being used to buy out LTC-ATF - seemed pointless for DMS to exchange them into BTC, losing out on fees/spread, when I have plenty of liquid BTC myself and needed to get more LTC onto LTC-Global anyway).

https://blockchain.info/address/1CzJY7pVkCqDjUtycHzFgeTTbbWokqYuXo

Is the address in which I'll hold funds belonging to DMS.  I've transferred the 90.71 BTC into there from one of my own personal addresses.

Will be withdrawing our J-D funds to there now.  If we find a new home I may, of course, reinvest in J-D.  And if we close down then the funds in that BTC address will be sent to BTC-TC and be part of the final distribution.

[Deprived]

Just divested all our funds in J-D - the site took a major kicking last few days and our investment is down to 153.86146722 BTC.

Can't actually withdraw it as hot-wallet there is empty right now.

[Progressive]

What is our profit from the whole time in JD? Is it below 0%?

(I'm glad that only 10% was there and that Deprived didn't follow my suggestion to increas our investment there before)

[Deprived]

What is our profit from the whole time in JD? Is it below 0%?

Yeah it dropped below 0% in the last 24 hours.  We're down just over 5 BTC overall on J-D.

[Deprived]

IF DMS does relist, where would people prefer?

Cryptotrade is run by a scammer.
MPEx isn't a valid option as most investors won't have accounts there - and there'd be no point relisting somewhere that most people couldn't access their shares.

Which leaves Bitfunder and Havelock as the only two real options. 

I have no massive preference between them - I've used both without any problems.  Havelock looks prettier but I find it more a pain to navigate around than Bitfunder (takes too many clicks for the most common transitions) and it seems to grind to a halt under any sort of heavy load - which I've never seen on Bitfunder (which has always seemed to be able to handle load better than BTC-TC could).  Bitfunder has very sporadic customer service (people regularly waiting for support issues to be handled) and you have to move funds in and out through an entirely pointless exchange that only seems to exist to make moving funds in/out of Bitfunder unnecessarily complicated.

We'll see if either offers relocation.

I'm tending more towards relisting now but definitely haven't made a final call on it.

[Rannasha]

IF DMS does relist, where would people prefer?

If you decide on relisting, you can put up a motion for all DMS shareholders. I agree that only Havelock and Bitfunder are viable options.

edit: On another matter: Could you let us know if there is any news regarding the CIPHERMINE bonds that DMS holds? With LTC-ATF.B2 bought back and the JD investment withdrawn, the CIPHERMINE bonds make up the only uncertain factor in the NAV of DMS and it would be good to know how to properly value the shares being traded.

[Progressive]

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock  0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

[guitarplinker]

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock  0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

And BitFunder has a messed up way of crediting your wallet, all the coins have to go through WebEx first. :/

[cw92]

Don't know if this is a legitimate issue, but I'm wondering if any of the other exchanges could have problems handling the extra volume if they accept a lot of new securities from BTCT?  

[Vezunchik]

Also note that this issue still wasn't solved. If DMS will be on site with Ukyo as admin there will be problems again, I am sure.

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock  0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

And BitFunder has a messed up way of crediting your wallet, all the coins have to go through WebEx first. :/

[Deprived]

Also there are different fees:
Bitfunder: 0% for buying, 1% for selling (less if you have turnover 50+ BTC)
Havelock  0% for buying, 0.4% for selling (total is the same as BTCT)

I would prefer Havelock.

I believe Havelock also has a maintenance fee for issuers - based on market-cap of the security.  Not totally sure on that though.

I'll sling up non-binding motions to get a feel for whether there's a very strong preference for either of them.

[Deprived]

MPEx isn't a valid option as most investors won't have accounts there - and there'd be no point relisting somewhere that most people couldn't access their shares.

They can have accounts on CoinBr.

I like CoinBR but there's a few problem with it which mean I can't consider it for this:

1.  Monthly maintenance fee - many investors have tiny holdings which, if they want to sell, would get eaten by the fee.
2.  Large withdrawal fee (0.1 BTC from memory).  If I relist I have a responsibility to ensure ALL my investors can get their cash out fine.
3.  No ability for inter-account transfers on CoinBR - that's the killer as DMS NEEDS that (and for it to be free) to function.

If I decided to move DMS to MPEx then it would have to be a brand new version - not a transfer of the existing one.

[Deprived]

IF DMS does relist, where would people prefer?

If you decide on relisting, you can put up a motion for all DMS shareholders. I agree that only Havelock and Bitfunder are viable options.

edit: On another matter: Could you let us know if there is any news regarding the CIPHERMINE bonds that DMS holds? With LTC-ATF.B2 bought back and the JD investment withdrawn, the CIPHERMINE bonds make up the only uncertain factor in the NAV of DMS and it would be good to know how to properly value the shares being traded.

No news on that yet - believe Kate got married this weekend so not expecting any proper resolution of that immediately.  Would assume she'll sort out what's happening with Ciphermine itself first - then what happens with the bond will naturally follow on from there.  Under the contract I COULD give notice now that I want cash back in 3 months time (and forfeit all interest in the meantime) but I'd prefer to wait a bit and see what happens before doing anything drastic like that.  A more friendly solution would be better for all involved : if Ciphermine and the bonds relist elsewhere then we can probably sell on the market at or above face value faster without causing unnecessary grief for Ciphermine (and collect interest in the interim).

If clear direction is provided and I rate the risk low enough then, if DMS closes rather than moves, I could cash out the last chunk to speed the process up a bit.  But bailing out the whole 360 BTC myself isn't an option.

At present I'm not attempting to sell below face value at all.  I DID sell 9 BTC worth last night/early this morning at a bit over face value:

2013-09-23 06:43:28    Market Sell    200    ฿ 0.01027    ฿ 2.054
2013-09-23 06:43:27    Market Sell    400    ฿ 0.01027    ฿ 4.108
2013-09-23 06:43:26    Market Sell    89    ฿ 0.01028    ฿ 0.91492
2013-09-23 06:43:26    Market Sell    1    ฿ 0.01029    ฿ 0.01029
2013-09-23 06:43:25    Market Sell    200    ฿ 0.0103    ฿ 2.06

Those were our sales - not too long before the announcement it seems : I've been trying to reduce positions where I can since it became apparent last week that this was a significant possibility.  I didn't expect it quite so quickly however - and wasn't sure whether close-down was on the books or just getting rid of US investors/issuers.  I didn't sell any of our LTC-ATF bonds (or my own) as I knew face value was safe on those.

[FloatesMcgoates]

SELLING should bear the brunt of the NAV/u decline as a result of investment losses, correct?

[Ashitank]

I prefer bitfunder over havelock , may be as more securities moves over to bitfunder We-exchange credit time will be reduced in future but I think it is overall a batter trading platform than havelock.

[Lohoris]

I totally don't trust Bitfunder, both for the laughable security bugs found in the past, and for the terribile terrible step of using the horrible weExchange (worse than the inputs.io crap to use coinlenders, lol).

That said, I'm no longer holding DMS shares, simply because I think they matched their real value now, so my opinion in this matter shouldn't have as much weight as that of someone who still has them.

Let's say that if DMS moves to Havelock I might trade it again if in future the price becomes inbalanced again and I see opportunity for profit, while if it moves to Bitfunder I won't touch it no matter what.

[Deprived]

SELLING should bear the brunt of the NAV/u decline as a result of investment losses, correct?

Yes.  Any loss from investments falls on SELLING (unless it zeroed SELLING - which can't possibly be the case at traded prices).

The LTC-ATF.B1 is cashed out and sitting in a wallet controlled by me.
The J-D was divested (and of course the whale then lost some back - but I posted the balance at time of divestment which can be proven from J-D records if necessary) and will be withdrawn as soon as dooglus is around at same time as me.
The last Coinlenders CD runs out in a few days at which point it'll be withdrawn.
It's only really the ~360 BTC of Ciphermine bonds that aren't at present properly determined in terms of status.  And there's no reason to believe those will lose significant value - though I obviously can't rule that out.

Until there's clarity on the status of the Ciphermine bonds I can't reopen sales of PURCHASE or redemptions - as I don't want to allow massive trades in both directions based upon a guess, as that could end up with someone losing out without having done anything wrong.

I WOULD recommend NOT to panic sell - worst case is pretty much that the CIphermine bonds are worth zero (and that's HIGHLY unlikely) so noone should sell at a discount below that.  Once I have the Coinlenders CD cash back as well I'll offer a cashout at that rate if prices on the market have fallen stupidly - as that can't cost anyone else anything and prevents total desperation sales.  Such a buyback would, of course, be for pairs of MINING/SELLING (or PURCHASE).

[FloatesMcgoates]

How will the value of the ciphermine bonds be calculated for the purposes of the upcoming SELLING dividend?

[Deprived]

How will the value of the ciphermine bonds be calculated for the purposes of the upcoming SELLING dividend?

Short answer is it doesn't matter - as difficulty isn't going to stop rising soon.

For now it'll be listed in the books as full value - and dividends paid accordingly.  Those trading SELLING need to apply whatever (if any) discount they believe is appropriate - I won't (and can't) force a market valuation on them, all I can do it do my best to provide as much information as possible for everyone to accurate as best they can.

I won't be personally trading at all for now - as it would be unfair for me to do so given that I may posses slightly more information than the rest of you.  For the record I personally hold something like 15-20K SELLING and 0 MINING right now (can't remember exact numbers but it's in that area).

[baloo_kiev]

For the record I personally hold something like 15-20K SELLING and 0 MINING right now

LOL I had no doubt about it. MINING have always been and are still overpriced like crazy!