[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[lg15x]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

[Rannasha]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

[lg15x]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

Mining is too cheap, this is good time for people to buy. But, if BTCT shut down and we have not migrated shares to other platform, then how do holders get dividends?

[Deprived]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

Mining is too cheap, this is good time for people to buy. But, if BTCT shut down and we have not migrated shares to other platform, then how do holders get dividends?

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

[Rannasha]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

Mining is too cheap, this is good time for people to buy. But, if BTCT shut down and we have not migrated shares to other platform, then how do holders get dividends?

BTCT sends out daily emails to asset issuers containing shareholders email address, public BTC address and share count.

Asset issuers have everything they need to carry on with paying dividends as well as to communicate with shareholders (even though it's a considerable amount of work).

[baloo_kiev]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

Man, you've been handling the whole thing like a pro so far. But this particular plan of paying out immediately based on market price at whatever moment really sucks. Even if you shut down DMS, why not paying dividends (bi-weekly or monthly) to the holders so everyone receives fair amount?

[Progressive]

It seems that more DMS holders are in favor of relisting:
MINING 94:35
SELLING 104:23

BTW, looking at just-dice now (profit -5440 BTC) I'm glad Deprived divested at -1500 BTC

@baloo_kiev: This is just the worst possible scenario. Deprived indicated that relisting at BF/HVL is more probable.

[Deprived]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

Man, you've been handling the whole thing like a pro so far. But this particular plan of paying out immediately based on market price at whatever moment really sucks. Even if you shut down DMS, why not paying dividends (bi-weekly or monthly) to the holders so everyone receives fair amount?

Well unless there's a sudden change in the voting my plan is definitely to relist.

Why wouldn't I carry on off-exchange if we couldn't relist?

1.  It's a lot of work - with no management fee payable for it.
2.  It wouldn't be practical with the current contract anyway - think of things like transaction fees on sending all the tiny little MINING dividends.
3.  Noone who held mainly only ONE of MINING/SELLING would have any liquidity.  Ever.  As there'd be no way to trade shares.
4.  How would I know when to close it down?  At present it's done by me raising a vote.  On an exchange without a voting system I could decide anyway based on traded price.  With no trading and no easy way to run votes it would be pure guesswork.

etc.

In short the contract, operational details and management fee were all designed based on it being run on an exchange.  And I'm sure most investors invested on the assumption that would be the case.

[BitThink]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

Mining is too cheap, this is good time for people to buy. But, if BTCT shut down and we have not migrated shares to other platform, then how do holders get dividends?

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

I was too late to grap all those cheap DMS.MINING after your announcement. That means DMS.MINING will get 365 * the daily dividend at the last day, am I right? Without the voting of DMS.SELLING holders?

That means, there's no any reason for DMS.SELLING to have a lower price than the one of the moment when burnside announce the closing.

[BitThink]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

Man, you've been handling the whole thing like a pro so far. But this particular plan of paying out immediately based on market price at whatever moment really sucks. Even if you shut down DMS, why not paying dividends (bi-weekly or monthly) to the holders so everyone receives fair amount?

Well unless there's a sudden change in the voting my plan is definitely to relist.

Why wouldn't I carry on off-exchange if we couldn't relist?

1.  It's a lot of work - with no management fee payable for it.
2.  It wouldn't be practical with the current contract anyway - think of things like transaction fees on sending all the tiny little MINING dividends.
3.  Noone who held mainly only ONE of MINING/SELLING would have any liquidity.  Ever.  As there'd be no way to trade shares.
4.  How would I know when to close it down?  At present it's done by me raising a vote.  On an exchange without a voting system I could decide anyway based on traded price.  With no trading and no easy way to run votes it would be pure guesswork.

etc.

In short the contract, operational details and management fee were all designed based on it being run on an exchange.  And I'm sure most investors invested on the assumption that would be the case.

But in this case, according to your reallocation plan. All MINING holders will choose close, and all SELLING holders will choose relisting, cause otherwise all SELLING holders will lose a lot.

So now voting has no meaning at all, there's only one fair option, that is relisting.

[SleepyRhino]

If this does move to another exchange (which is looking he most likely outcome) can we transfer all shares or only MINING+SELLING pairs?

[baloo_kiev]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

Man, you've been handling the whole thing like a pro so far. But this particular plan of paying out immediately based on market price at whatever moment really sucks. Even if you shut down DMS, why not paying dividends (bi-weekly or monthly) to the holders so everyone receives fair amount?

Well unless there's a sudden change in the voting my plan is definitely to relist.

Why wouldn't I carry on off-exchange if we couldn't relist?

1.  It's a lot of work - with no management fee payable for it.
2.  It wouldn't be practical with the current contract anyway - think of things like transaction fees on sending all the tiny little MINING dividends.
3.  Noone who held mainly only ONE of MINING/SELLING would have any liquidity.  Ever.  As there'd be no way to trade shares.
4.  How would I know when to close it down?  At present it's done by me raising a vote.  On an exchange without a voting system I could decide anyway based on traded price.  With no trading and no easy way to run votes it would be pure guesswork.

etc.

In short the contract, operational details and management fee were all designed based on it being run on an exchange.  And I'm sure most investors invested on the assumption that would be the case.

I'd rather receive my dividends once in three months and pay additional fee. And for me, fair distribution between S and M is more important than liquidity. But I understand that the reasons you have listed make it practically impossible. So let's hope for relisting.

[Deprived]

Although I prefer re-listing, but it's not easy to change the contract and transfer to another platform. So maybe we have to close DMS.

Deprived, you mention you'll use the market price at your post time to give to Mining and Selling holders. Could you please figure out the number?

I think he will only provide that number is if it is deciede that DMS will close and only at that time. Otherwise it may affect the free market trading that is essential for this security. If DMS moves to another platform, there will probably be a redemption of pairs of M+S.

Mining is too cheap, this is good time for people to buy. But, if BTCT shut down and we have not migrated shares to other platform, then how do holders get dividends?

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

I was too late to grap all those cheap DMS.MINING after your announcement. That means DMS.MINING will get 365 * the daily dividend at the last day, am I right? Without the voting of DMS.SELLING holders?

That means, there's no any reason for DMS.SELLING to have a lower price than the one of the moment when burnside announce the closing.

No.  If DMS was closed now then MINING/SELLING would receive dividends based on market prices.

The 365-day payout to MINING is if SELLING vote to close - which isn't going to happen unless/until difficulty stops rising fast.

[Rannasha]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

Man, you've been handling the whole thing like a pro so far. But this particular plan of paying out immediately based on market price at whatever moment really sucks. Even if you shut down DMS, why not paying dividends (bi-weekly or monthly) to the holders so everyone receives fair amount?

Well unless there's a sudden change in the voting my plan is definitely to relist.

Why wouldn't I carry on off-exchange if we couldn't relist?

1.  It's a lot of work - with no management fee payable for it.
2.  It wouldn't be practical with the current contract anyway - think of things like transaction fees on sending all the tiny little MINING dividends.
3.  Noone who held mainly only ONE of MINING/SELLING would have any liquidity.  Ever.  As there'd be no way to trade shares.
4.  How would I know when to close it down?  At present it's done by me raising a vote.  On an exchange without a voting system I could decide anyway based on traded price.  With no trading and no easy way to run votes it would be pure guesswork.

etc.

In short the contract, operational details and management fee were all designed based on it being run on an exchange.  And I'm sure most investors invested on the assumption that would be the case.

But in this case, according to your reallocation plan. All MINING holders will choose close, and all SELLING holders will choose relisting. There should be no exception, otherwise all SELLING holders will lose a lot.

So now voting has no meaning at all, there's only one fair option, that is relisting.

According to the contract, a vote to close under the "Buy Back Terms" paragraph of the contract requires a SELLING majority vote, while MINING doesn't get a vote. I believe that the current vote offers an option between relisting and closure under the terms of the "Unforseen Circumstances" paragraph, where the manager (Deprived) proposes a split, but that won't be the 365*Dividends for MINING split that would've occurred under normal closing circumstances.

Additionally, the current motions are explicitely only advisory, they're meant to poll interest not effect a binding change to the operation of the security.

[Deprived]

If this does move to another exchange (which is looking he most likely outcome) can we transfer all shares or only MINING+SELLING pairs?

All of MINING/SELLING would be transferred exactly as they are.

Pairs of MINING/SELLING and PURCHASE would be able to be cashed out before the move (either all in cash or in cash + CIPHERMINE.B1).

PURCHASE may or may not get transferred - depending on what support the new exchange has.  If there's no way to automate transfers then its likely the new PURCHASE would be at a multiple (so 1 PURCHASE might equal 500 MINING + 500 SELLING) to get the manual swap level down to a managable level.  If that happened then all PURCHASE that weren't a multiple of that new value would be transferred over split into MINING + SELLING already (I'd edit the export file from BTC-TC to do it - so new exchange could just import it).

[BitThink]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

But Deprived has clearly said mining would be paid their amount in full immediately.

[Rannasha]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

But Deprived has clearly said mining would be paid their amount in full immediately.

In case of a split of the asset funds, the amount that MINING has been assigned would be paid immediately from BTC being held. Since part of the funds are still tied up in Ciphermine bonds, SELLING would only receive their full amount once those have been liquidated. In his post Deprived makes no statements on what "their amount" would be for MINING, only that it would be paid immediately.

Which by the way makes it contradict with the assumption that MINING gets 365 of days of dividend, since Ciphermine makes up ~20% of the funds capital, while 365 days of dividend is close to 90% of the NAV. So there isn't enough BTC to pay MINING in full if they receive 365 dividend days.

[BitThink]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

But Deprived has clearly said mining would be paid their amount in full immediately.

In case of a split of the asset funds, the amount that MINING has been assigned would be paid immediately from BTC being held. Since part of the funds are still tied up in Ciphermine bonds, SELLING would only receive their full amount once those have been liquidated. In his post Deprived makes no statements on what "their amount" would be for MINING, only that it would be paid immediately.

Which by the way makes it contradict with the assumption that MINING gets 365 of days of dividend, since Ciphermine makes up ~20% of the funds capital, while 365 days of dividend is close to 90% of the NAV. So there isn't enough BTC to pay MINING in full if they receive 365 dividend days.

Ok, fair enough. So how to split between Selling and Mining remains a secret, right? But anyway, I think most likely it will be relisted, so it does not matter.

[Deprived]

If we haven't managed to move by the end of October when BTC-TC closes then we'd shut down.  At that stage mining would be paid thier amount in full immediately, SELLING would get whatever was left.  If there was still CIPHERMINE.B1 not sold then I'd have to do a final dividend manually when we sold them.

But Deprived has clearly said mining would be paid their amount in full immediately.

Right - but you seem confused over what "their amount" is.

As Rannasha pointed out, any closure would be because DMS can't  continue - not because of a vote by SELLING.  Under the contract the option I have (ignoring finding a new manager which obviously isn't practical) is to put up a vote with a proposed split and try to get both MINING and SELLING to agree it.

But if I do that, then I also have to stop paying dividends - as I can't have a 7 day long vote up with proposals that may not even be relevant a week later (if difficulty rises or falls by a lot).  And I can't even propose a split until I know what's happening with CL and CIPHERMINE.B1 - as I don't know how much there is to be split (though in theory I could get around that one by proposing an amount for MINING with SELLING getting the rest).

So at present we end up falling back on the final clause - that I have to decide the split myself.  Because the problem is that if I put up a proposal and it fails there won't be time to do a second one anyway.  So I'd end up having to decide myself - at which point I'd likely go with what I proposed (but was voted down on) anyway.  Which makes the vote pointless - as there's no way to act on (and get approval for) any revision to it.

IF the vote had indiciated most wanted to close then I MAY have considered halting all dividends and putting up a proposal for vote.  But as a clear majority wants to relist it seems rather silly to screw the market up and cause confusion when most likely we'll just be moving anyway.

EDIT: Just to be asolutely clear, no split I proposed or unilaterally imposed would be giving MINING anywhere NEAR 365 days of dividends.  And it won't be susceptible to market manipulation (by someone trying to move the price on low volume) either.  Once we've relisted (if we do) someone feel free to ask me how I was going to do it - and I'll explain it in detail.

[SleepyRhino]

If this does move to another exchange (which is looking he most likely outcome) can we transfer all shares or only MINING+SELLING pairs?

All of MINING/SELLING would be transferred exactly as they are.

Pairs of MINING/SELLING and PURCHASE would be able to be cashed out before the move (either all in cash or in cash + CIPHERMINE.B1).

PURCHASE may or may not get transferred - depending on what support the new exchange has.  If there's no way to automate transfers then its likely the new PURCHASE would be at a multiple (so 1 PURCHASE might equal 500 MINING + 500 SELLING) to get the manual swap level down to a managable level.  If that happened then all PURCHASE that weren't a multiple of that new value would be transferred over split into MINING + SELLING already (I'd edit the export file from BTC-TC to do it - so new exchange could just import it).

Thanks for the clarification will leave my MINING and SELLING alone and not sell anything.