[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[Phildo]

I would like to join a lawsuit for weexchange, if there is one, assuming a reasonable cost. I lost most of my BTC,  Please contact me here or via PM.

What do you hope to achieve?

You're kidding right?

No, im fully serious. He sounds like he hopes to get his coins back by doing so. I would like to know where he gets his hopes from that this will work.

If he is out for punishment and gave up on his coins ok. Then it doesnt matter.

What do you hope to achieve by letting the guy who lost/stole the coins work on mythical projects for months with zero progress?

[1714503344]

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[jbreher]

No, im fully serious. He sounds like he hopes to get his coins back by doing so. I would like to know where he gets his hopes from that this will work.

You poor naive soul. You still don't get it, do you? First, they are not his coins. They are the coins of his creditors. Well, by rights, if not by fact of current circumstance.

All evidence available points to the most likely case is that he is in full possession of (what is it - millions of dollars worth?) of other people's bitcoins. Hope, schmope. His hope is that you keep playing the role of apologist, keeping everyone at bay, until he can disappear cleanly.

If he is out for punishment and gave up on his coins ok. Then it doesnt matter.

Again, not -his- coins. And 'out for punishment'? Of course he's not out for punishment - he's all for getting away with the theft of millions.

I'm starting to consider the possibility that you are not just a starry-eyed fool, but perhaps rather a paid shill on the inside of the thief's system. I sure hope not.

[pascal257]

No, im fully serious. He sounds like he hopes to get his coins back by doing so. I would like to know where he gets his hopes from that this will work.

You poor naive soul. You still don't get it, do you? First, they are not his coins. They are the coins of his creditors. Well, by rights, if not by fact of current circumstance.

All evidence available points to the most likely case is that he is in full possession of (what is it - millions of dollars worth?) of other people's bitcoins. Hope, schmope. His hope is that you keep playing the role of apologist, keeping everyone at bay, until he can disappear cleanly.

If he is out for punishment and gave up on his coins ok. Then it doesnt matter.

Again, not -his- coins. And 'out for punishment'? Of course he's not out for punishment - he's all for getting away with the theft of millions.

I'm starting to consider the possibility that you are not just a starry-eyed fool, but perhaps rather a paid shill on the inside of the thief's system. I sure hope not.

I'm sure with "he", he meant ru0chen (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348468.msg8034746#msg8034746)

But you're absolutely right. Aren't there any US citizens also victims of Ukyo who have it easier to sue him? I am sure we could setup a fund for legal fees.

[SebastianJu]

What do you hope to achieve by letting the guy who lost/stole the coins work on mythical projects for months with zero progress?

Its possible that it takes time to reachieve the lost coins. So no need to be hasty. Though in return if sueing really means bankruptcy without the chance to get the original coins back then yes... sueing now would be the most stupid idea. And only because someone thinks he knows what happened and thinks ukyo is lying.

You poor naive soul. You still don't get it, do you? First, they are not his coins. They are the coins of his creditors. Well, by rights, if not by fact of current circumstance.

I spoke about pascal257's coins. And i would appreciate it when you remain factual. Though thats the problem here. Guys getting emotional. Guess there are still persons that didnt learn that emotions are bad advisors for business decisions.

All evidence available points to the most likely case is that he is in full possession of (what is it - millions of dollars worth?) of other people's bitcoins. Hope, schmope. His hope is that you keep playing the role of apologist, keeping everyone at bay, until he can disappear cleanly.

What? Evidence? First time i hear from this. Come clear if you have anything. But i fear you take your "believe" as evidence.

Again, not -his- coins. And 'out for punishment'? Of course he's not out for punishment - he's all for getting away with the theft of millions.

I'm starting to consider the possibility that you are not just a starry-eyed fool, but perhaps rather a paid shill on the inside of the thief's system. I sure hope not.

And i start to believe that your emotions are that high that you cant really read what i wrote. I answered pascal257 and asked if he hopes to get his coins back. How you can get to the idea that i meant ukyos coins seems a bit strange. But then i thought... you have evidence that he stole them so they are his now. So far an insight in your inner working.

Ok, ill wait for your evidence.

[JorgeStolfi]

What do you hope to achieve by letting the guy who lost/stole the coins work on mythical projects for months with zero progress?

Its possible that it takes time to reachieve the lost coins. So no need to be hasty. Though in return if sueing really means bankruptcy without the chance to get the original coins back then yes... sueing now would be the most stupid idea. And only because someone thinks he knows what happened and thinks ukyo is lying.

Is there ANY reason to believe that this 'Ukyo' is genunely trying to return the "lost" coins? 

[NotLambchop]

SebastianJu is a great judge of character and an experienced financier.  There's no known scam he hasn't already fallen for.

[jbreher]

What do you hope to achieve by letting the guy who lost/stole the coins work on mythical projects for months with zero progress?

Its possible that it takes time to reachieve the lost coins. So no need to be hasty. Though in return if sueing really means bankruptcy without the chance to get the original coins back then yes... sueing now would be the most stupid idea. And only because someone thinks he knows what happened and thinks ukyo is lying.

Is there ANY reason to believe that this 'Ukyo' is genunely trying to return the "lost" coins? 

None other than the full faith and credit of SebastianJu, as far as I can discern.

[jbreher]

Ok, ill wait for your evidence.

I'll reply to the rest after this. Here is, AFAICT, the entirety of the evidence available:
- Ukyo ran some number of enterprises that held assets of others
- Those enterprises have folded
- Creditors of these enterprises have not had their assets returned
- Ukyo has not communicated his position, plans, nor intents to these creditors

OK, what am I missing?

Based upon that evidence, the only rational conclusion is that Ukyo has absconded with the assets, and has no plans to return them.

Of course we do have SebastianJu claiming to be in possession of some secret insider knowledge about Ukyo's true heart. Irrelevant. Inadmissable as hearsay.

As I have said before - honorable people who owe creditors do not avoid informing those creditors.

[jbreher]

What do you hope to achieve by letting the guy who lost/stole the coins work on mythical projects for months with zero progress?

Its possible that it takes time to reachieve the lost coins. So no need to be hasty. Though in return if sueing really means bankruptcy without the chance to get the original coins back then yes... sueing now would be the most stupid idea. And only because someone thinks he knows what happened and thinks ukyo is lying.

Ukyo has not been here to face the creditors in months. Lying? I suppose the vague evasions he has uttered may not be precisely lying - I'd have to review the record to make that claim. But he has a fiduciary responsibility that he is evading. He owes us an explanation of his position, plans, and intent (oh yeah - he owes us a lot of money as well). He is not living up to that responsibility. Again, the most likely explanation for this behavior is ...

You poor naive soul. You still don't get it, do you? First, they are not his coins. They are the coins of his creditors. Well, by rights, if not by fact of current circumstance.

I spoke about pascal257's coins.

Sorry - I really read that as if you were talking about 'Ukyo's coins'.

And i would appreciate it when you remain factual.

Factual? Sure. I have always clarified my presumptions with phrases such as 'the most likely explanation is...'. Factual? It is not I who has made claims about Ukyo's so-called "projects".

Do you realize that you are putting yourself in the role of Ukyo's proxy here, by your advocacy? Is this really what you want? You won't tell us what Ukyo has told you - fine. But you can't expect us just to take your word on the matter. I suggest you think long and hard about what others think of your advocacy, and your esteem due to smoothing things over on the behalf of a demonstrably incompetent businessman, if not an outright thief.

[glendall]

You might want to give up jbreher.  I tried for about 6 months  straight to get (minority of) people to open their eyes and see that they have been robbed. For those that still think they did not get robbed, I just don't think they understand logic, or how to rationally understand a situation.  Exactly as you said stating the facts, there is no reason to believe that Jon Montroll did not steal millions of dollars worth of bitcoin.  Anyone who doesn't see that they have been robbed is, in my estimation, a moron; or, they just want to hold on to the idea that they may see their coins again so much that they are capable of deluding themselves.

I also was suspicious of SebastianJu being a paid shill or an account of Jon M. as well, as I just don't see how anyone could have any, any, any faith at all in the Jon Montroll, who thousands of bitcoins from his clients and took out a massive loan and bailed on it.  There is ---ZERO--- explanation why he would not at least be able to tell us what happened, at least in vague terms, many months after the 'loss' of the bitcoins.

Unfortunately I also highly doubt any legal proceedings would be worthwhile. He engineered this scam as to be legally insulated, such as registering the company in Bali etc. If Jon Montroll stole a lot of money from you the best you could possibly to is to track him down in real life. Some of his info is out there. Like what happened to some other folks I'm guessing (who went suddenly silent) if you can put enough pressure on him IRL he'll pay you off what he stole from you. 

[stereotype]

Ukyo has been spinning this 'project' bullshit for 7 months now. Said bullshit, for some inexplicable reason, is why logic and considered reasoning is being suppressed in the minds of people who should have worked out by now, that they are playing to the tune of a liar. Ukyo's ability to raise hope, when reality says there is none to be had, is annoyingly good. But, just how the fuck, people can have faith in a 9+ month running lie, is quite quite baffling.  

FFS creditors. Its now or never......

 

  

[ensurance982]

I don't believe either that Ukyo is going to return any further coins But on the psychological side it is interesting to see how easily people can be tricked to even side with the people that embezzled/stole their money!!!

[SebastianJu]

Guys... im getting tired of this shitstorm. Believe what you want but i think its stupid to not try to inform you first hand and judge without trying to inform.

By the way... tell me that im delusional or whatever but dont say im dishonest. I maybe had more coins in escrow than most other escrows on the board, at one point over 3k Bitcoins at a time and i didnt run with them. So if you want to say something negative about me then that i might be wrong on my judgment with ukyo but not that im dishonest.

Is there ANY reason to believe that this 'Ukyo' is genunely trying to return the "lost" coins? 

No proof available. Only his word. Though it makes sense that the coins cant be retrieved anymore when weexchange has to go bankrupt. Its commons sense that doesnt need ukyo. Weex dont have the coins. If sued and demanding the coins then weex has to go bankrupt otherwise ukyo would take legal risks personally. And if weex is gone then there is no one that could demand the coins back. Simple as that. So the decision is simply to believe ukyo for now or try if he lied and take the risk to kill the chance to get the coins back. I made my decision for the moment but it seems a couple of people think they are way wiser than me. They dont bother to contact ukyo but think they know what happened and will happen anyway. Good luck then i only can say.

SebastianJu is a great judge of character and an experienced financier.  There's no known scam he hasn't already fallen for.

Sadly it involves some truth. Though its hard having invested in the past and NOT losing. The projects that did earn money at the end are only very few. Mostly it would have been wiser not to invest at all. But i think you dont need to speak down on me. As far as i remember you werent wiser than me in the past and you lost your part too.

I'll reply to the rest after this. Here is, AFAICT, the entirety of the evidence available:
- Ukyo ran some number of enterprises that held assets of others
- Those enterprises have folded
- Creditors of these enterprises have not had their assets returned
- Ukyo has not communicated his position, plans, nor intents to these creditors

OK, what am I missing?

Based upon that evidence, the only rational conclusion is that Ukyo has absconded with the assets, and has no plans to return them.

Of course we do have SebastianJu claiming to be in possession of some secret insider knowledge about Ukyo's true heart. Irrelevant. Inadmissable as hearsay.

As I have said before - honorable people who owe creditors do not avoid informing those creditors.

*sigh* Again, you seem to not being able to a bit imagination. You never heard of lawyers that says you should not say anything until things are cleared? Never heard of investigations where you shouldnt say anything to not risk the investigations?

Fine by me. Its proof for you so do what you want. Maybe youre right. But maybe you only kill my chance to get the original coins back. And thats why im against a lawsuit for the moment.

Do you realize that you are putting yourself in the role of Ukyo's proxy here, by your advocacy? Is this really what you want? You won't tell us what Ukyo has told you - fine. But you can't expect us just to take your word on the matter. I suggest you think long and hard about what others think of your advocacy, and your esteem due to smoothing things over on the behalf of a demonstrably incompetent businessman, if not an outright thief.

No. In fact i hate the position im pushed in at the moment. I take the shitstorm that ukyo should take. And only because i believe him for the moment, judging from the chats i did with him and project he showed me. Because i think thats the only chance to get the original coins back. I explained above in this post why i think so.

Anyway... i dont know whats the truth at the end. I only see the options. And sueing doesnt have a chance for succeed in my eyes anyway. At least not when sueing with the intend of getting the coins back. But who knows. I might be wrong.

[NotLambchop]

Let me try again, this time taking both your mental state and capacity into consideration:

[jbreher]

Is there ANY reason to believe that this 'Ukyo' is genunely trying to return the "lost" coins? 

No proof available. Only his word.

Well, not quite. All _we_ have is _your_ word that he has given _his_ word. Except you won't quote to us what his word actually _is_. In clear repudiation of his fiduciary responsibility, Jon Montroll continues to dodge his creditors, choosing instead to release dribbles of vague wishywash through a pliant intermediary (sorry man - just calling it as I see it).

Though it makes sense that the coins cant be retrieved anymore when weexchange has to go bankrupt. Its commons sense that doesnt need ukyo. Weex dont have the coins.

Weex had a pretty simple job. Hold every last one of its creditors' assets, and exchange those assets upon direction from those creditors. So tell me - what happened to those assets?

Here is, AFAICT, the entirety of the evidence available:
- Ukyo ran some number of enterprises that held assets of others
- Those enterprises have folded
- Creditors of these enterprises have not had their assets returned
- Ukyo has not communicated his position, plans, nor intents to these creditors

OK, what am I missing?

*sigh* Again, you seem to not being able to a bit imagination.

I have plenty of imagination. None of your postulated scenarios stand up under scrutiny:

You never heard of lawyers that says you should not say anything until things are cleared?

Yes I have. They say that in order to protect their _client's_ interests _alone_. Such does not absolve Jon Montroll of his fiduciary duty.

Never heard of investigations where you shouldnt say anything to not risk the investigations?

Yes I have. Invariably accompanied by a statement from the relevant law enforcement agency that they will not say anything, in order to not risk the investigations. So where's the statement from the relevant 'authorities'?

Again, based upon all the evidence available to us, the only rational conclusion is that Jon Montroll has absconded with the assets, and has no plans to return them.

[hd060053]

Unfortunately I also highly doubt any legal proceedings would be worthwhile. He engineered this scam as to be legally insulated, such as registering the company in Bali etc. If Jon Montroll stole a lot of money from you the best you could possibly to is to track him down in real life. Some of his info is out there. Like what happened to some other folks I'm guessing (who went suddenly silent) if you can put enough pressure on him IRL he'll pay you off what he stole from you. 

Yes the only chance is to confront him in 'real life'. For example contact Jon Montrol's facebook friends with messages asking them wtf is up with ukyo and how can we contact him.

I will send them another message today.


Ukyo if you want me to stop asking your friends what you have done and how i can contact you, you should explain the situation here public or send my coins back. I know you read this.

If your plan is to stay it out and forget it, it will not work , many of us wont give up.


btw: I dont care here about SebastianJu, his posts are worthless, dont know why he defends Ukyo and replys to every negative/critic post.

[jbreher]

For example contact Jon Montrol's facebook ...

Oops - Did I misspell his name?

How 'bout sharing a link to his FB profile?

[JorgeStolfi]

Is there ANY reason to believe that this 'Ukyo' is genunely trying to return the "lost" coins? 

No proof available. Only his word.

The reason why people may retain different opinions on some issue, no matter how much they debate, is that there are some things that one learns over an entire lifetime, that cannot be easily translated into words.  Because of that sem-conscious and diffuse prior knowledge, two persons can reach categorical but radically different conclusions from the same data, and neither can explain to the other why his conclusions are "obvious" to him.

How to recognize a scammer is an example of such unexplainable prior, it seems.

Obviously anyone who engages that "profession" must be very skilled at convincing targeted victims that he is honest.  Therefore, one cannot tell whether someone is a scammer by paying attention to what he says. One must note what he does (and fails to do), and to what he doesn't say.

I can't hope to convince anyone of my "fuzzy algorithm" for recognizing scammers.  But the first basic principle may be logical enough: If someone has got your money, and does not deliver the goods he promised to, you should assume that he is a scammer, until clear proof to the contrary.  From that point on, you should ignore all his claims, explanations, and excuses, unless they are confirmed by clear evidence or other sources that he cannot have manipulated.  Add more points every time that he refuses to give details or proof of his claims, every time he makes a promise and instead delivers another excuse, every time he avoids dialogue with curtomers or reporters.  There is more, but you get the idea.

Moreover, if a businessman failed his part of a contract and owes you goods or money, you should not waste time learning why he did not do it.  His failure, by itself, entitles you to take legal action against him.  That is why the courts are for.    If he has to borrow money or sell his car to make good on the contract, that is his problem, not yours. "Legal action" may vary depending on the country, e.g. it may be proper to report him first to the Better Business Bureau, or seek a small-claims court.

There are several "tools" that scammers use, like the "be patient, I am working on it, but cannot tell you the details now",  "I am under great distress because of personal/familiar problems", "I have lost a great deal of money with this incident myself", "we will resolve this issue whithin two weeks at most",  etc.  If he owes you 1000$, when you have almost lost the hope of recovering that money, he may tell you that, with much effort and personal sacrifice, he is returning 200$ to you -- betting that you will think "that nice fella rescued 200$ for me" rather than "that scumbag stole 800$ from me".

A scammer cannot be shamed into returning all the money he took from all his victims, no matter how much they complain, in public or in private.  Him doing so would make as much sense as a fisherman dumping all his catch back into the sea for pity of the fish, a gold miner burying back the gold that dug out.  Bad press does not bother a scammer.  He has no reputation to lose: there will always be suckers who will give him money without even googling his name, or who will believe his stories of how he was framed, misunderstood, whatever.  If he has any friends, they must be all amoral scoundrels like him.

If he perceives that some customers are about to sue him, or denounce him for fraud, he may refund them -- but only them. 

Unfortunately, victims of a scammer rarely get all their money back.  Bankruptcy and civil lawsuits will probably find that the business doesn't have any assets left to liquidate.  It may be necessary to criminally prosecute the scammer, for fraud or fraudulent management, in order to seize his personal property.

In order to pursue the legal route, clients must be able to prove their claims; but the scammer may have been careful to withold or invalidate the proofs, e. g. by not using his real name in the transactions.  (In any commercial exchange, the part who delivers first has the right to know the true identity and address of the other part, and should never deliver without that information.) 

Bitcoin payments are especially problematic in that regard, because the "bitcoin bank" does not know its customers' identities.  A minimally competent lawyer could point to a transaction in the blockchain, and convince the court that bitcoins are valuable property and the blockchain (unlike email, screenshots, or PDF files) cannot be tampered with.  However, how could he prove that the sending addres "belonged" to the client at that time,, and the receiving address belonged to the scammer?

In the end, it often boils down to the client's word against the scammer's word. Then the client's chances will be much better if there are many unrelated plaintiffs with similar claims.

[iCEBREAKER]

Good news: the coins I had "stuck" in my WEEX deposit address have been pried lose.  To be clear, these were coins sent to the address AFTER everything stopped working, from some group buy dividends I couldn't change the destination of.

Bad news: instead of giving me access to the coins sent to my unique individual address, the coins were distributed to other people via a "claim form."

Worse news: my Picostocks account is locked to that WEEX deposit address, so unless I can get the private key or some other kind of access, those coins will also be seized and given away.

Is this not robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Reactions? 

Is taking coins which were indisputably mine in order to pay of WEEX's other debts legitimate, criminal, neither, or ambiguous?

[stereotype]

Good news: the coins I had "stuck" in my WEEX deposit address have been pried lose.  To be clear, these were coins sent to the address AFTER everything stopped working, from some group buy dividends I couldn't change the destination of.

Bad news: instead of giving me access to the coins sent to my unique individual address, the coins were distributed to other people via a "claim form."

Worse news: my Picostocks account is locked to that WEEX deposit address, so unless I can get the private key or some other kind of access, those coins will also be seized and given away.

Is this not robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Reactions?  

Is taking coins which were indisputably mine in order to pay of WEEX's other debts legitimate, criminal, neither, or ambiguous?

I would say 'legal', as i dont believe Jon would act without covering his legal arse/taking advice.

I still want to know what happened/has happened, to peoples data.