[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[IPO Magic]

^Besides, Danny Brewster vouched for him, and Danny's word is good enough for me.
*Just for lulz, what would you consider proof?

Proof is proof. Believe is believe. Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak... look at ken slaughter. He doesnt speak anymore now. (Not that he was a good speaker before... )

Not following your logic.  Ken Slaughter is not speaking now and never spoke more than he had to because he was/is scamming.  Now you have the legal opinion of MSD as supplemental "evidence."
That said, I refuse to believe he's as stupid and verbally inept as he appears to be.  He managed to bilk this "community" for millions.  That requires some intelligence, though granted, not much.

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[thehun]

Well, in strictly legal terms SebastianJu is right. It might have a tail, whiskers and purr but if you can't prove with 100% certainty that it's a cat you can't pursue a legal case. I bet any lawyer will tell you that and it's probably the reason why nobody has taken him (or for that case almost any other BTC scammer) to court.

I, as most of you, am sure it was a scam. But no, I have no way of proving it to a judge.

[NotLambchop]

^
What judge?
The rigor of proof in tort cases is not "beyond a reasonable doubt," you are thinking criminal law.

As far as being found guilty?
Jon has run an unlicensed securities exchange selling unregistered securities to American persons.  From American soil.
He ran an unlicensed and unregistered money services operation.  From American soil.
He circumvented every KYC/money laundering regulation on the books while running both.
I'm pretty sure his taxes are a mess.

This is just off the top of my head, you want more?

[thehun]

As far as being found guilty?
Jon has run an unlicensed securities exchange selling unregistered securities to American persons.  From American soil.
He ran an unlicensed and unregistered money services operation.  From American soil.
He circumvented every KYC/money laundering regulation on the books while running both.
I'm pretty sure his taxes are a mess.

This is just off the top of my head, you want more?

Yes, he could and should be processed for all that and more. But IMHO he can't be processed for the actual STEALING of people's coins as there is no way to prove that.

[NotLambchop]

As far as being found guilty?
Jon has run an unlicensed securities exchange selling unregistered securities to American persons.  From American soil.
He ran an unlicensed and unregistered money services operation.  From American soil.
He circumvented every KYC/money laundering regulation on the books while running both.
I'm pretty sure his taxes are a mess.

This is just off the top of my head, you want more?

Yes, he could and should be processed for all that and more. But IMHO he can't be processed for the actual STEALING of people's coins as there is no way to prove that.

Apologies in advance for playing intertubes lawyer, but cases like this seldom start with all the evidence in your hands.  That's why we have discovery, allowing your lawyer access to relevant documents...
...and not allowing Jon to say "sry bro, NDA/gag order!"

[jbreher]

All evidence says ukyo stole our coins. All. Available. Evidence.

Wheres the evidence? I doubt you cant back your claim but just in case let me know.

Coins are gone and he dont talk isnt enough for claiming a proof that he stole, so owns, the coins.

It would be enough evidence to convict him by a jury of his peers.

[jbreher]

Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak...

Bullshit.

[jbreher]

and of course lost coins in weex and maybe other places.

You don't quite yet understand. Weex was another of ukyo's sham businesses.

[SebastianJu]

@SebastianJu:  You can't be serious?  Are you keeping in touch with Danny, too?  How is it that you still aren't living in the street, Sebastian?
Mammoth trust fund?

Why should i ask if he ran when i would be in contact with Danny? I didnt lose coins with Danny so i dont need to speak with him.

^Besides, Danny Brewster vouched for him, and Danny's word is good enough for me.
*Just for lulz, what would you consider proof?

Proof is proof. Believe is believe. Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak... look at ken slaughter. He doesnt speak anymore now. (Not that he was a good speaker before... )

Not following your logic.  Ken Slaughter is not speaking now and never spoke more than he had to because he was/is scamming.  Now you have the legal opinion of MSD as supplemental "evidence."
That said, I refuse to believe he's as stupid and verbally inept as he appears to be.  He managed to bilk this "community" for millions.  That requires some intelligence, though granted, not much.

Youre right. It should have been a warning how ken slaughter handled informations. Though he blocked trading for a long time.
I think he was simply incompetent and that he cant be charged for running a scam. Only for running an unregistered security.

^
What judge?
The rigor of proof in tort cases is not "beyond a reasonable doubt," you are thinking criminal law.

As far as being found guilty?
Jon has run an unlicensed securities exchange selling unregistered securities to American persons.  From American soil.
He ran an unlicensed and unregistered money services operation.  From American soil.
He circumvented every KYC/money laundering regulation on the books while running both.
I'm pretty sure his taxes are a mess.

This is just off the top of my head, you want more?

Right... he might be sued for it. But stealing coins is a different matter you cant proof.

Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak...

Bullshit.

Right... you would be one of the smart guys that talk to the police before your lawyer checked what you could say. Its not known what happened to weex. Not even Danny knew what happened exactly.

and of course lost coins in weex and maybe other places.

You don't quite yet understand. Weex was another of ukyo's sham businesses.

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

[JorgeStolfi]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

[jbreher]

Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak...

Bullshit.

Right... you would be one of the smart guys that talk to the police before your lawyer checked what you could say. Its not known what happened to weex. Not even Danny knew what happened exactly.

"Can't speak" and "won't speak" are two decidedly different concepts. The notion that he can't speak is laughable. We know he won't speak. Most likely reason for "won't speak" is guilt.

[SebastianJu]

Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak...

Bullshit.

Right... you would be one of the smart guys that talk to the police before your lawyer checked what you could say. Its not known what happened to weex. Not even Danny knew what happened exactly.

"Can't speak" and "won't speak" are two decidedly different concepts. The notion that he can't speak is laughable. We know he won't speak. Most likely reason for "won't speak" is guilt.

Won't speak can be the following of can't speak too. Depending on what happened really "won't speak" might mean that its the better choice to have the chance to get the coins back. Though its not justifyable as long as no one knows anything.

I didnt reach him the last days but still trying.

[SebastianJu]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

As far as i remember NEOBEE went down because they didnt have money anymore. They lost coins in weex and mtgox and danny claimed he already put all his own coins in NEOBEE too. So at the end it looks to me that the coins lost in weex are a reason for NEOBEE going down too.

[JorgeStolfi]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

As far as i remember NEOBEE went down because they didnt have money anymore. They lost coins in weex and mtgox and danny claimed he already put all his own coins in NEOBEE too. So at the end it looks to me that the coins lost in weex are a reason for NEOBEE going down too.

Neo & Bee went down when their CEO ran away after they failed to get Central Bank authorization for their bank, and he realized that his castle of cards was about to collapse.  He allegedly took the remaining company's coins (and, according to police charges, money that he got from other people in exchange for bitcoins that he did not deliver), leaving behind debts and unpaid salaries.

Only then did investors bother to read the Neo & Bee prospectus and noticed that it did not contain a viable business plan.

Only then did investors bother to check Danny's background, and found that he had no background in finance at all, and he ad pulled a similar stunt in the UK before moving to Cyprus.  He had announced he was going to organize a big music festival in Lincolnshire, sold tickets, got advance license money from food vendors, etc; but then cancelled the event, and said that the debts were not made by his person but by his company, that he had sold, so he owed nothing.

AFAIK he is still hiding, somewhere in the world.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529946.msg6500610#msg6500610

[NotLambchop]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

As far as i remember NEOBEE went down because they didnt have money anymore...

NeoBee went down 'coz Danny ran away
Just out of curiosity, do you think something like this?

“And now tell me, why is it that you use the words "good people" all the time? Do you call everyone that, or what?
- Everyone, - the prisoner replied. - There are no evil people in the world." --M. Bulgakov, Master and Margarita

[jbreher]

Especially when legal things are involved its quite understandable that ukyo cant speak...

Bullshit.

Right... you would be one of the smart guys that talk to the police before your lawyer checked what you could say. Its not known what happened to weex. Not even Danny knew what happened exactly.

"Can't speak" and "won't speak" are two decidedly different concepts. The notion that he can't speak is laughable. We know he won't speak. Most likely reason for "won't speak" is guilt.

Depending on what happened really "won't speak" might mean that its the better choice to have the chance to get the coins back.

A presumption for which there is No Available Evidence.

Though its not justifyable as long as no one knows anything.

Exactly. You can have all the faith you want. I'll cue up some old Journey for your soundtrack:

        Don't stop... believin'... Hold on to that feeeeee lin'


Edit: typo

[Phildo]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

As far as i remember NEOBEE went down because they didnt have money anymore. They lost coins in weex and mtgox and danny claimed he already put all his own coins in NEOBEE too. So at the end it looks to me that the coins lost in weex are a reason for NEOBEE going down too.

Neobee went down because the guy was a scammer and stole all the coins. they lost some coins to weex, but if they weren't full of shit they wouldn't have lost any there. Why would you leave the coins you raised to start your business on WEEX instead of taking them out and using them to start the business.

 the guy that was smart enough to not lose any company coins on Gox lost a bunch of company coins on Weex and then lost the personal coins that could have saved the day on Gox. in reality they spent a bunch of money and never made any and then the owner ran away with what was left.

[SebastianJu]

You should read the context. Danny lost coins in weex which led to the bankruptcy of neobee.

Where did you get that idea? Have you checked Danny's curriculum in the UK?

As far as i remember NEOBEE went down because they didnt have money anymore. They lost coins in weex and mtgox and danny claimed he already put all his own coins in NEOBEE too. So at the end it looks to me that the coins lost in weex are a reason for NEOBEE going down too.

Neo & Bee went down when their CEO ran away after they failed to get Central Bank authorization for their bank, and he realized that his castle of cards was about to collapse.  He allegedly took the remaining company's coins (and, according to police charges, money that he got from other people in exchange for bitcoins that he did not deliver), leaving behind debts and unpaid salaries.

Only then did investors bother to read the Neo & Bee prospectus and noticed that it did not contain a viable business plan.

Only then did investors bother to check Danny's background, and found that he had no background in finance at all, and he ad pulled a similar stunt in the UK before moving to Cyprus.  He had announced he was going to organize a big music festival in Lincolnshire, sold tickets, got advance license money from food vendors, etc; but then cancelled the event, and said that the debts were not made by his person but by his company, that he had sold, so he owed nothing.

AFAIK he is still hiding, somewhere in the world.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529946.msg6500610#msg6500610

Didnt know that... its really a pain how most of these entrepreneurs turn out to be at the end. I wonder if this changes one time...

[redmetal]

Scam after Scam, I would like just one bitcoin company to produce something good, and kick off on this front

[Rannasha]

Scam after Scam, I would like just one bitcoin company to produce something good, and kick off on this front

There are plenty of good Bitcoin companies. The difference is that they don't sell their shares on unregistered exchanges to make money. If a business plan is solid and the management has a good background, then VC investors will gladly invest as there are several VCs focused primarily on Bitcoin.

Selling shares publicly before the company has even started simply doesn't happen on regular stock exchanges. The company first has to show their worth and then will be allowed to be listed to acquire additional capital, not their initial capital. Initial capital comes from the founders or VC / Angel investors. The concept used by most Bitcoin stock exchanges to accept IPOs for "just an idea" is silly.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule (very few). Asicminer is the most prominent. They started their ASIC business from an IPO and have paid back dividends far above the IPO price (and the current price also exceeds IPO price). But when Asicminer started, there was very little in terms of VC funding for Bitcoin companies, so they didn't really have another way to collect money.