[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[SebastianJu]

After speaking to someone in the know but who wouldn't divulge much, I am now convinced that Ukyo is being investigated along with others by the U.S. SEC and was forced to withhold people's funds and not talk about it until the investigation is complete. I further speculate that it is the same investigation into Satoshi Dice that is coming to light.

I dont see why a gag order would be needed in place then. A gag order normally only is used when a investigation runs and the culprit shouldnt be noticed about his steps being noticed. Thats not the case here since everyone knows something is fundamentally wrong.
So i think thats not the problem.

[1714468971]

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[1714468971]

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[equipoise]

2^ I'm still logging without problems. "Balance Stuck" still shows the correct value for my account.

[KS]

2^ I'm still logging without problems. "Balance Stuck" still shows the correct value for my account.

aaaand it's back.

Sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it shows zero balance, sometimes it shows the correct amount. 

[SOSLOVE868]

Just for a update, I have talked to a lawyer who specialize dealing with debt collection.
He said ,that if UKYO has really taken user's fund and not intend to return, he will going to jail because this is a criminal behavior.  

and he can't hide any fund, because all BTC transaction is traceable ,right now, the only things concern me is the cost legal fee.

If going to sue him alone, it going to cost me 20-30K dollars, so I still looking for more people to join me ,become a group people against UKYO.

If anyone interest on this you can PM me ,with how much he owes you.

all cost relate to this lawsuit we be shared proportionally by joint people.

Thanks  

[SebastianJu]

Just for a update, I have talked to a lawyer who specialize dealing with debt collection.
He said ,that if UKYO has really taken user's fund and not intend to return, he will going to jail because this is a criminal behavior.  

and he can't hide any fund, because all BTC transaction is traceable ,right now, the only things concern me is the cost legal fee.

If going to sue him alone, it going to cost me 20-30K dollars, so I still looking for more people to join me ,become a group people against UKYO.

If anyone interest on this you can PM me ,with how much he owes you.

all cost relate to this lawsuit we be shared proportionally by joint people.

Thanks  

20-30k for sueing him? Sounds like american lawyer prices after they heard what he owes you. If you pay that amount you take a high risk. I mean you not even know yet what happened. If he claims its stolen and he only can seize his personal belongings you can have a hard time getting your lawyer costs back only.

I think the lawyer sounds a bit strange. It sounds like he let you think that ukyo still owns the money but only dont want to give it back. I think the problem isnt that easy.

Of course he cant hide funds. Nobody knows whats the owner of a particular address. So when ukyo sent the coins to a address he silently owns and claims it was a hacker then you cant proof that he is wrong.

[tuudle]

Did Ukyo said what was the problem?
Is this the way to try: https://bitcoinfoundation.org/blog/?p=541

[kano]

After speaking to someone in the know but who wouldn't divulge much, I am now convinced that Ukyo is being investigated along with others by the U.S. SEC and was forced to withhold people's funds and not talk about it until the investigation is complete. I further speculate that it is the same investigation into Satoshi Dice that is coming to light.

I dont see why a gag order would be needed in place then. A gag order normally only is used when a investigation runs and the culprit shouldnt be noticed about his steps being noticed. Thats not the case here since everyone knows something is fundamentally wrong.
So i think thats not the problem.

As I pointed out in the other thread ...

A gag order that has been stated publicly to have been broken ... from the start by informing that bunch of crooks who were hoping to make a profit out of this situation
... so sounds like a load of rubbish that such a gag order even exists.

[glendall]

Once again, I'm 99% sure that SEC and other agencies do not use gag orders like that. Especially when public funds are involved. If there is a gag order for this kind of thing, the business owner would be able to say that the SEC or whoever was involved, but they would not be able to divulge the details.  There would be NO CASE where a gag order would be given and a proprietor of a business would be allowed to accept deposits from the public with no chance of them getting them back, that would make the gov' agency culpable in the crime of thievery that has happened.

You are only looking at 'secret, can't talk about it gag orders' if an intelligence agency is involved or an undercover criminal investigation is going on, and this is not the case. Even if it is criminal investigation, the FBI or whatever would not give a gag order that would not allow the public to not know they were investigating -- the gag order would only prevent any details of coming out.


Regarding moving forward / progress, perhaps instead of a civil lawsuit it would be more efficacious to press criminal charges here.  As it stands now Ukyo took roughly 8000 bitcoins from the community, in either deposits that should have been protected or safe, or a loan, that he was defaulted on.  The missing money is $5 mill by today's rate.  For him to not comment on what happened, for (I even forget how long it has been now -- ) 3, 4 months, is beyond any reasonable consideration that he should be given.  

Do we know what country he is in?

[thy]

Once again, I'm 99% sure that SEC and other agencies do not use gag orders like that. Especially when public funds are involved. If there is a gag order for this kind of thing, the business owner would be able to say that the SEC or whoever was involved, but they would not be able to divulge the details.  There would be NO CASE where a gag order would be given and a proprietor of a business would be allowed to accept deposits from the public with no chance of them getting them back, that would make the gov' agency culpable in the crime of thievery that has happened.

You are only looking at 'secret, can't talk about it gag orders' if an intelligence agency is involved or an undercover criminal investigation is going on, and this is not the case. Even if it is criminal investigation, the FBI or whatever would not give a gag order that would not allow the public to not know they were investigating -- the gag order would only prevent any details of coming out.


Regarding moving forward / progress, perhaps instead of a civil lawsuit it would be more efficacious to press criminal charges here.  As it stands now Ukyo took roughly 8000 bitcoins from the community, in either deposits that should have been protected or safe, or a loan, that he was defaulted on.  The missing money is $5 mill by today's rate.  For him to not comment on what happened, for (I even forget how long it has been now -- ) 3, 4 months, is beyond any reasonable consideration that he should be given. 

Do we know what country he is in?

I pressume Ukyo's still in Dallas, USA as SOSLOVE868 just traveled to Dallas from China a few days ago to talk to lawyer(s) there and possibly go further with a case against Ukyo.

[jbreher]

Do we know what country he is in?

I pressume Ukyo's still in Dallas, USA as SOSLOVE868 just traveled to Dallas from China a few days ago to talk to lawyer(s) there and possibly go further with a case against Ukyo.

Why would the fact that someone went to Dallas to talk to a lawyer lead you to presume that Ukyo is in the USA? B does not follow A in any stretch of logic.

[jbreher]

I made this account because I didn't see anyone (at that point) reporting having as many btc stuck as I do. Ukyo currently owe me more than 100btc.

There are others that lost way more. I wonder why the thread with the list of claims doesnt contain the list anymore...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aja0Sx1iSRWqdHVMOVI2NlE1azQzbHNGdlUzVmJVVmc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Jeebus.. what a clusterfrick.

I just finished reading all 68 pages of this sorry rodeo. Took a couple of sittings.

Somehow, notice of this implosion flew completely under my radar. I'd heard stuff about bitfinder, and about Asicminer, and about... but nothing about WeExchange itself.

While it is not a lot, I had (have?) 2.5 BTC deposited at WeExchange.

So why would my not noticing this surprise me? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because non-fraudulent exchanges typically notify their depositors when their solvency is in jeopardy.

I understand that we do not know what has happened. However, the preponderance of evidence clearly shows the most likely case is that Ukyo has merely absconded with our funds. The only evidence to the contrary is empty assurances by unkown people that they 'know he didn't'. Well sorry to publicly contradict you, but lacking actual evidence, your unverifiable assurances amount to nothing larger than fly farts.

OK, perhaps there is a gag order in place. Let us posit this. However, in the US, the only gag orders where the target cannot divulge the existence of a gag order (at least to my knowledge) is an NSL. OK, let's posit there is an NSL in place. If so, do you really think DHS would allow the target of an NSL -- known to have access to $Millions -- to travel unchaperoned to Cyprus? Really? Can you say flight risk? Sure. I knew you could. Throw that red herring out.

So with that venting out of the way, is this the definitive thread on the topic?
If not, where is the best summation of events and status?
I'll chip in to sic a lawyer on his sorry ass - who's coordinating?
Why can I not even access my 6.175%? (I can log in, I can see my balance, can't get to it)
Is the google doc spreadsheet (linked above) of any use? If so, how do I add my loss?
Edit: when I signed up for WeExchange, the website seemed unambiguous that WeExchange was Graet. What is his role in this, and why is he silent in this thread?

[sangaman]

I don't have funds personally at stake here, but I agree that a criminal investigation seems to be appropriate here.

As for a civil case, I wonder if there are lawyers who would take the case and only charge a fee if they win a decision in court?

[SebastianJu]

I don't have funds personally at stake here, but I agree that a criminal investigation seems to be appropriate here.

As for a civil case, I wonder if there are lawyers who would take the case and only charge a fee if they win a decision in court?

It wouldnt be a good thing to hire such a lawyer. They usually take a big chunk of anything that you would get back. So if at all one should pay the price for a lawyer simply and find out if you get something back. The lawyer would work for you anyway only when he debts are high.

[WeexUser]

So with that venting out of the way, is this the definitive thread on the topic?
If not, where is the best summation of events and status?
I'll chip in to sic a lawyer on his sorry ass - who's coordinating?
Why can I not even access my 6.175%? (I can log in, I can see my balance, can't get to it)
Is the google doc spreadsheet (linked above) of any use? If so, how do I add my loss?
Edit: when I signed up for WeExchange, the website seemed unambiguous that WeExchange was Graet. What is his role in this, and why is he silent in this thread?

There are many threads but this one is probably the best to follow.

Timeline: (fixed)

• 2013-10-08 Bitfunder closed for us-residents and verification needed
• 2013-10-17 Weexchange withdraw problems was first reported. Withdraws remained "processing" / "Could not connect to 2nd stage server" errors. Bitcoind kept crashing, according to Ukyo. Withdraws occasionally worked but the error appeared more often.
• 2013-11-14 Bitfunder closed
• 2013-11-12 Ukyo claims he still does manual withdraws from Weexchange funds though its probably the last time.
• 2013-11-?? Legal issue started around here, according to Ukyo.
• 2013-11-16 Ukyo removed the deposit address from Weexchange.
• 2013-11-?? Danny from NeoBee got involved in fixing the issue.
• 2013-12-17 Weexchange claim portal opens, allowing users to withdraw 6.175%.
• 2013-12-29 Weexchange's bitcoind client is affected by the "block 277596" issue.
• 2013-12-30 Ukyo opens the ASICMiner claim portal.
• 2014-01-22 ActiveMining's CEO starts selling Ukyo's personal ActiveMining shares to recover what he is owed.

SOSLOVE868 is currently talking to lawyers about a case against Ukyo.

The spreadsheet was created to figure out how much btc was stuck in weex. The spreadsheet is not of much use now because Ukyo said how much btc weex had available in December (the 6.17%) which makes us able to calculate how much is still stuck in weex. This number turned out to be much larger than what was accumulated in the spreadsheet.

Graet is the Director of Weexchange. He is probably needed, since Weex an Australian company and Ukyo (the owner) lives in the US.

Ukyo was active on IRC yesterday. AFAIK it had been weeks since his last message. Nothing more than a sign of life though, just a "hi" and some guidance to someone who needed a reset of his 2FA.

[jbreher]

Thanks, WeexUser, for that concise summary. Much appreciated.

[WeexUser]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> hi
<nsa_> hello
<Syloq> Shhh.
* nsa_ whispers
<nsa_> any progress?
<Sebastan> i have to second that question. ukyo?
<Ukyo> for loan stuff? lots of stuff moving forward
<Sebastan> im interested into weexchange...
<Ukyo> sigh. I could say "Yeah, things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything"
<Ukyo> but thats not exactly how it is
<Ukyo> I wish there was some movement on things
<Ukyo> I would love a chance to say that there has been something
<Sebastan> what about telling us what happened...
<Ukyo> thats kind of wrapped into things
<Ukyo> And to be honest, no matter what I say, unless I can provide proof backing it, will be refuted
<Sebastan> i mean you probably can see that its a bit strange not getting told what happened with ones own bitcoins. i cant imagine a situation where it would hurt to tell the truth. i mean the hacker (or whatever) already knows what happened.
<Ukyo> I was actually hoping that by now most people would have somewhat of an idea of whats going on
<nsa_> Can you say whether the situation at gox is related to weex?
<Sebastan> i cant believe in a gag order since i dont see a sense in it. they are used for catching criminals. stopping a service would stop that purpose.
<Ukyo> nsa_: for all intensive purposes i am only saying that I did not steal the bitcoins
<Ukyo> Sebastan: So many responses I wish I could make. :)
<Sebastan> anyway... i think the letter to you should be on the way already... or is it with you already?
<Ukyo> ?
<Sebastan> from my lawyer
<Ukyo> I havent seen anything ?
<Sebastan> ok... then i have to check back with my lawyer...
<Ukyo> what country did you send it to ?
<Ukyo> heh
<Sebastan> i gave them the weexchange address in australia
<Sebastan> its an australian lawyer
<Ukyo> ah yeah, that would take some extra time to get to me

[KS]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> hi
<nsa_> hello
<Syloq> Shhh.
* nsa_ whispers
<nsa_> any progress?
<Sebastan> i have to second that question. ukyo?
<Ukyo> for loan stuff? lots of stuff moving forward
<Sebastan> im interested into weexchange...
<Ukyo> sigh. I could say "Yeah, things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything"
<Ukyo> but thats not exactly how it is
<Ukyo> I wish there was some movement on things
<Ukyo> I would love a chance to say that there has been something
<Sebastan> what about telling us what happened...
<Ukyo> thats kind of wrapped into things
<Ukyo> And to be honest, no matter what I say, unless I can provide proof backing it, will be refuted
<Sebastan> i mean you probably can see that its a bit strange not getting told what happened with ones own bitcoins. i cant imagine a situation where it would hurt to tell the truth. i mean the hacker (or whatever) already knows what happened.
<Ukyo> I was actually hoping that by now most people would have somewhat of an idea of whats going on
<nsa_> Can you say whether the situation at gox is related to weex?
<Sebastan> i cant believe in a gag order since i dont see a sense in it. they are used for catching criminals. stopping a service would stop that purpose.
<Ukyo> nsa_: for all intensive purposes i am only saying that I did not steal the bitcoins
<Ukyo> Sebastan: So many responses I wish I could make. :)
<Sebastan> anyway... i think the letter to you should be on the way already... or is it with you already?
<Ukyo> ?
<Sebastan> from my lawyer
<Ukyo> I havent seen anything ?
<Sebastan> ok... then i have to check back with my lawyer...
<Ukyo> what country did you send it to ?
<Ukyo> heh
<Sebastan> i gave them the weexchange address in australia
<Sebastan> its an australian lawyer
<Ukyo> ah yeah, that would take some extra time to get to me

That mostly sums up the 68 previous pages.

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

[thy]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> hi
<nsa_> hello
<Syloq> Shhh.
* nsa_ whispers
<nsa_> any progress?
<Sebastan> i have to second that question. ukyo?
<Ukyo> for loan stuff? lots of stuff moving forward
<Sebastan> im interested into weexchange...
<Ukyo> sigh. I could say "Yeah, things are moving forward, but I can't tell you anything"
<Ukyo> but thats not exactly how it is
<Ukyo> I wish there was some movement on things
<Ukyo> I would love a chance to say that there has been something
<Sebastan> what about telling us what happened...
<Ukyo> thats kind of wrapped into things
<Ukyo> And to be honest, no matter what I say, unless I can provide proof backing it, will be refuted
<Sebastan> i mean you probably can see that its a bit strange not getting told what happened with ones own bitcoins. i cant imagine a situation where it would hurt to tell the truth. i mean the hacker (or whatever) already knows what happened.
<Ukyo> I was actually hoping that by now most people would have somewhat of an idea of whats going on
<nsa_> Can you say whether the situation at gox is related to weex?
<Sebastan> i cant believe in a gag order since i dont see a sense in it. they are used for catching criminals. stopping a service would stop that purpose.
<Ukyo> nsa_: for all intensive purposes i am only saying that I did not steal the bitcoins
<Ukyo> Sebastan: So many responses I wish I could make. :)
<Sebastan> anyway... i think the letter to you should be on the way already... or is it with you already?
<Ukyo> ?
<Sebastan> from my lawyer
<Ukyo> I havent seen anything ?
<Sebastan> ok... then i have to check back with my lawyer...
<Ukyo> what country did you send it to ?
<Ukyo> heh
<Sebastan> i gave them the weexchange address in australia
<Sebastan> its an australian lawyer
<Ukyo> ah yeah, that would take some extra time to get to me

That mostly sums up the 68 previous pages.

@Seb: why send a letter to Oz and not the States?

If Sebastian only had funds stuck in Weexchange(or if he is mostly interested in what happened to the rest(5870? BTC) of the  ~6256?(386/0,0617) BTC in weexchange) and not in Ukyo loan, with Weexchange beeing registered(?) in Australia the logical would be to send the letter to the Weexchange's adress in Australia and not directly to Ukyo even if Ukyo that has handled most of Weexchanges business is in the Usa and it's Graet that is in Australia.
Or maby it's just because it's simpler to handle a process within the same country as he's using an Australian lawyer.

[thy]

So with that venting out of the way, is this the definitive thread on the topic?
If not, where is the best summation of events and status?
I'll chip in to sic a lawyer on his sorry ass - who's coordinating?
Why can I not even access my 6.175%? (I can log in, I can see my balance, can't get to it)
Is the google doc spreadsheet (linked above) of any use? If so, how do I add my loss?
Edit: when I signed up for WeExchange, the website seemed unambiguous that WeExchange was Graet. What is his role in this, and why is he silent in this thread?

There are many threads but this one is probably the best to follow.

Timeline:

• 2013-07-08 Bitfunder closed for us-residents and verification needed
• 2013-10-17 Weexchange withdraw problems was first reported. Withdraws remained "processing" / "Could not connect to 2nd stage server" errors. Bitcoind kept crashing, according to Ukyo. Withdraws occasionally worked but the error appeared more often.
• 2013-11-04 Bitfunder closed
• 2013-11-12 Ukyo claims he still does manual withdraws from Weexchange funds though its probably the last time.
• 2013-11-?? Legal issue started around here, according to Ukyo.
• 2013-11-16 Ukyo removed the deposit address from Weexchange.
• 2013-11-?? Danny from NeoBee got involved in fixing the issue.
• 2013-12-17 Weexchange claim portal opens, allowing users to withdraw 6.175%.
• 2013-12-29 Weexchange's bitcoind client is affected by the "block 277596" issue.
• 2013-12-30 Ukyo opens the ASICMiner claim portal.
• 2014-01-22 ActiveMining's CEO starts selling Ukyo's personal ActiveMining shares to recover what he is owed.

SOSLOVE868 is currently talking to lawyers about a case against Ukyo.

The spreadsheet was created to figure out how much btc was stuck in weex. The spreadsheet is not of much use now because Ukyo said how much btc weex had available in December (the 6.17%) which makes us able to calculate how much is still stuck in weex. This number turned out to be much larger than what was accumulated in the spreadsheet.

Graet is the Director of Weexchange. He is probably needed, since Weex an Australian company and Ukyo (the owner) lives in the US.

Ukyo was active on IRC yesterday. AFAIK it had been weeks since his last message. Nothing more than a sign of life though, just a "hi" and some guidance to someone who needed a reset of his 2FA.

Thats a good summary of things, I think you got that a few date's wrong thou:

from Ukyo's post the 4 nov
"In connection with BitFunder’s shut-down, please note the following points, which supplement the points outlined in BitFunder’s October 8, and October 11, 2013 notices:
* As of November 14, 2013, no BitFunder user will be able to enter into any new positions or sell positions on the BitFunder website.
* On December 2, 2013, bitcoin balances in the accounts of all users will be transferred to their WeExchange accounts."

I think 8 Oct not 8 July was when us-citizens needed to get verified but they were still allowed to keep trading for a while after that if they got verified and the final trade stop for all users on Bitfunder was the 14 Nov not the 4 Nov.

[jbreher]

Ukyo have been writing on IRC within the last hour:

Code: (#bitfunder)

<Ukyo> ...

Those of you who we're not around for the pirateat40 implosion might not recognize what is going on here. Those of you who were should be feeling more than a twinge of unease in the pit of your stomach. Textbook scam delay tactic #653.

Or at least indistinguishable from such.