[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[ru0chen]

ukyo: what about graet.loan ?

[fuckukyo]

The reason why ukyo's trusted feedback is so high is beyond me. He seems deleted(is this possible?) some of the negative feedbacks.

Anyone got robbed by him please give him a negative feedback, this is what scammers like Ukyo and TradeFortress deserve.

[Rannasha]

He seems deleted(is this possible?) some of the negative feedbacks.

Feedback can only be deleted by the person giving the feedback.

[Ukyo]

Jon, you can not afford to let WeEx go into bankruptcy.
It's the only card in your hand that stems the inevitable shitstorm you'll face when people learn they have no chance of seeing their money again.
Bankruptcy is not a choice for you, but you know that yourself.
BTW, it's schizophrenic to call WeEx "it," as if it had a will of it's own.  WeEx is *you*.  If things go badly for "it," things go proportionally badly for you. 

If the company is sued it has no choice but to file bankruptcy. I am not 100% sure about AU law however here (and I have tried) most Judges do not allow an individual to represent a corporation in court. Even if they did allow it, I am not a lawyer nor am I in AU and would not be able to take on such legal matters.

A corporation is it's own entity, which is the reason why most courts require that a lawyer represent a corporation and not an individual.
They have their own individual tax id's and everything.

-Ukyo

[twentyseventy]

Jon, you can not afford to let WeEx go into bankruptcy.
It's the only card in your hand that stems the inevitable shitstorm you'll face when people learn they have no chance of seeing their money again.
Bankruptcy is not a choice for you, but you know that yourself.
BTW, it's schizophrenic to call WeEx "it," as if it had a will of it's own.  WeEx is *you*.  If things go badly for "it," things go proportionally badly for you. 

If the company is sued it has no choice but to file bankruptcy. I am not 100% sure about AU law however here (and I have tried) most Judges do not allow an individual to represent a corporation in court. Even if they did allow it, I am not a lawyer nor am I in AU and would not be able to take on such legal matters.

A corporation is it's own entity, which is the reason why most courts require that a lawyer represent a corporation and not an individual.
They have their own individual tax id's and everything.

-Ukyo

Read: Sue Jon Montroll directly, don't sue Weex.

Even if Weex did file for bankruptcy, they would have to list their assets and liquidate those to creditors. Not that I think that it would help, but it means that bankruptcy is a 'throw up your hands and everything is gone/forgotten'

[Ukyo]

Read: Sue Jon Montroll directly, don't sue Weex.

Even if Weex did file for bankruptcy, they would have to list their assets and liquidate those to creditors. Not that I think that it would help, but it means that bankruptcy is a 'throw up your hands and everything is gone/forgotten'

You can. Anyone can sue anyone for any reason.
Please consult your lawyer if you wish to proceed.

In the meantime, I am favoring "not" filing bankruptcy and continuing to work to make people whole.

-Ukyo

[Puppet]

I used to believe you were acting in good faith, but got "interference" from  authorities who would also have seized assets and apparently gave you a gag order.

Now Im not so sure. Claiming not to have a lawyer when you boasted earlier of having 3 law firms in 3 countries, and trying to scare people from sueing you by saying it would force you in to bankruptcy.. Here is a reminder of what bankruptcy is: "Bankruptcy is a legal status of a person or other entity that cannot repay the debts it owes to creditors." Whats there to be afraid off? By that definition, Weexchange / BF *IS* bankrupt. What more harm could it do for a court to freeze any assets there might still be, if any, so they can be returned to your creditors?  

BTW, if somehow you think avoiding bankruptcy would allow you to repay your creditors over time, make your case for a judge and file for Chapter 11.

[Ukyo]

Nonsense.  Courts do not require companies to be represented by lawyers, don't be absurd.

The US is absurd.
Please use google.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/legalnewsroom/corporate/b/blog/archive/2011/03/16/can-my-corporation-represent-itself-in-a-lawsuit-in-new-york-state-court.aspx
http://www.eanswer.com/law/3z5wx-corporation-represent-itself-court-filed-motion.html
http://www.justanswer.com/law/1755d-understand-corporation-cannot-represent-itself.html

PC's, LLC's, LLP's, Inc's, etc., all have to have attorneys represent them because they are legally unique entities but no ONE person comprises that entity. Thus, to allow a shareholder to act pro se for a corporation would be tantamount to allowing the shareholder to act as an attorney since he would be representing the legal entity. Lawyers and Judges don't want lay people acting like attorneys. When the party is an individual, then it doesn't matter because individuals have the right to represent themselves. Make sense?

The corporation is not an individual. It would be 'absurd' to allow a single person in a company represent any/all shareholders of a corporations interest without bias.

Sure, separation ends when you act illegally. I have not. This is called "breaking the corporate shield."
Trendon Shavers operated a clearly visible ponzy scheme. There was never any intent to withhold funds from WeExchange users and has only worked towards making funds available again.

Please take your trolling elsewhere or learn google before hitting submit.

[Ukyo]

I used to believe you were acting in good faith, but got "interference" from  authorities who would also have seized assets and apparently gave you a gag order.

Now Im not so sure. Claiming not to have a lawyer when you boasted earlier of having 3 law firms in 3 countries, and trying to scare people from sueing you by saying it would force you in to bankruptcy.. Here is a reminder of what bankruptcy is: "Bankruptcy is a legal status of a person or other entity that cannot repay the debts it owes to creditors." Whats there to be afraid off? By that definition, Weexchange / BF *IS* bankrupt. What more harm could it do for a court to freeze any assets there might still be, if any, so they can be returned to your creditors?  

BTW, if somehow you think avoiding bankruptcy would allow you to repay your creditors over time, make your case for a judge and file for Chapter 11.

There is no such thing as "WeExchange / BF".
There are two different things. "WeExchange" and "BitFunder".
I have hired a number of lawyers on behalf of both for legal research and licensing.
Currently WeExchange has no legal representation.
BitFunder had representation in multiple countries for research, not WeExchange.
You seem to keep confusing them.

Yes, you are correct. Currently WeExchange has no funds available to pay out to anyone and is from a point of view bankrupt.
This is why you are 100% correct and if someone sues WeExchange then it has no choice but to file for bankruptcy as you said.
There is no "reorganization" at this point since there is no income currently. There is no "equity". There is only a website that no one likes.
Normally, a judge would rule that there are no funds to disperse to creditors (WeExchange users) and close the company. As for the funds
that are not available, how a judge would proceed is questionable regarding this. It could leave the company stuck in a bankruptcy mode
for a number of years leaving the company without the ability to do anything including payment distributions. Needless to say, the judge
will not have the ability to "make funds available" and would have information showing I did not use/spend/do anything illegal with the funds.

The current status leaves us in control of the corporation and the creditors to use whatever means possible to distribute payments to users.
This will remain the case as long as users allow it. In the end, I am trying to make this all work out for everyone and not get stuck in a situation
where a court takes over and either leaves everything stuck in limbo for who knows how long with us unable to do anything for users or a judge
simply declaring the corporation bankrupt and notifying creditors that the corporation has been forced to close.

You simply cannot squeeze blood from a turnip.

To go into chapter 11, you have to offer a plan to reorganize and how to pay creditors based on what you have. "Rearranging" expenses to drop below income.
There is currently no income.

-Ukyo

[CumpsD]

Just for knowledge's sake, in some countries if a company goes bankrupt, its owners can be held personally liable and personal effects can be seized to settle debt.

This is the case by default for some legal forms, while others have a more strict company/personal seperation, but if it goes bankrupt in the first X years (3 years where I live) an investigation takes place to look into how the owners ran the company, and if they are found of misconduct, they are also personally liable, even if their legal forms seperated private from personal.

Back on topic:
How is work progressing on the portals and getting funds? This seems al more important than having a forum discussion on legalese from different countries, no?

[twentyseventy]

Read: Sue Jon Montroll directly, don't sue Weex.

Even if Weex did file for bankruptcy, they would have to list their assets and liquidate those to creditors. Not that I think that it would help, but it means that bankruptcy is a 'throw up your hands and everything is gone/forgotten'

You can. Anyone can sue anyone for any reason.
Please consult your lawyer if you wish to proceed.

In the meantime, I am favoring "not" filing bankruptcy and continuing to work to make people whole.

-Ukyo

I don't have any coins stuck/stolen by you- it's just sad to me that you're stringing the community along. Until you come out and say specifically what happened to the coins, you're a scammer in my book.

The coins 'aren't available' isn't an excuse you should be able to hide behind.

I'm sure you wouldn't accept it if your employer said that your paycheck 'wasn't available' or your bank account's funds 'aren't available', but no other explanation was available.

[jimmothy]

Read: Sue Jon Montroll directly, don't sue Weex.

Even if Weex did file for bankruptcy, they would have to list their assets and liquidate those to creditors. Not that I think that it would help, but it means that bankruptcy is a 'throw up your hands and everything is gone/forgotten'

You can. Anyone can sue anyone for any reason.
Please consult your lawyer if you wish to proceed.

In the meantime, I am favoring "not" filing bankruptcy and continuing to work to make people whole.

-Ukyo

I don't have any coins stuck/stolen by you- it's just sad to me that you're stringing the community along. Until you come out and say specifically what happened to the coins, you're a scammer in my book.

The coins 'aren't available' isn't an excuse you should be able to hide behind.

I'm sure you wouldn't accept it if your employer said that your paycheck 'wasn't available' or your bank account's funds 'aren't available', but no other explanation was available.

Why bother wasting your time here? Ukyo has made it very clear that either he cannot give us the full details (but can give us hints and riddles) or he does not want to. Either way this mess stinks of bullshit and how ukyo handled it makes it clear that no bitcoiner will ever trust him or any service he touched with even a single satoshi.

Even if this is not ukyo fault at all and some gov agency is pulling the strings, the manner in which ukyo handled the situation is completely unacceptable.

[jimmothy]

There is no such thing as "WeExchange / BF".
There are two different things. "WeExchange" and "BitFunder".

Cute, but it will work as well as "it's just a game" worked.

My first thoughts as well. Are both "companies" operated by the same guy? If so they are the same company. That would be the equivalent of mcdonalds classifying their soda machine as a separate company.

[canuck]

If any of you do decide to compel BF and Weex into bankruptcy via a bankruptcy court, consider a couple of things.  The best you might hope for is for the court to declare that Ukyo is personally liable for losses suffered by others.  If this is the case, you need to ask yourself a couple of things.

Is Ukyo going to Jail going to get you any of your BTC back?  Certainly, he won't have enough income on paper to cover your losses and the best you might be able to hope for is if Ukyo lands a $100,000 per year job, the courts might take $155,000 or so over a couple of years and give that to proven (this is very important that you be able to legally prove that you're a creditor) creditors.  If Ukyo ends up owing $3 Million or so, you're looking at about $0.05 on the dollar IF you can legally prove you're a creditor.

Also, will the courts look at the value of your BTC today or the value of the BTC when you handed it over to Ukyo?  If you think you're looking at a dispensation from the courts in BTC, you're just dreaming.

There is a certain reality to this and that is that Ukyo is unable to pay you back and you have no legal manner of forcing him to pay you back.  If you think using your tax dollars (if you pay taxes) to feed and cloth him in prison for a little while is payback, you're just not thinking clearly and are being desperately vengeful because you can't think of what else you might be able to do.

I don't care what happens to Jon.  I just want my BTC back and courts of law, in this situation, have not a single hope in hell of doing that.  Weex users have already in fact, been paid out much more than a bankruptcy court would ever have been able to pay out and it wouldn't have been in Bitcoin and it would have been a year and a half from now.

Is this shitty?  You betcha.  Will the courts be able to help you?  Nu uh.  Do you have a choice here aside from waiting it out?  Nope.  Is that unfair?  Yup.  Anything you can do about it?  Nope.

Sorry folks but you need to face up to reality no matter how mad you are and I'll bet I'm just as mad as most of you are.  If you want to keep pursuing this, you've no other choice than to suck it up and grow a pair not because you need to prove that you're calm and level headed but because frankly, you don't have a choice.

[Ukyo]

Back on topic:
How is work progressing on the portals and getting funds? This seems al more important than having a forum discussion on legalese from different countries, no?

Agreed thank you. Right now since most business dealings are still wrapping up from the holidays and we are waiting for responses, I am focused on working on a
solution to correct for the bitcoind block 177596 issue and rework the system to integrate with newer versions of bitcoind.

Once this is completed I will be working on the Ukyo.Loan portal while still working towards completing solutions to enable more payment dispersion.

-Ukyo

[Puppet]

There is a certain reality to this and that is that Ukyo is unable to pay you back and you have no legal manner of forcing him to pay you back.  

You say that based on what? Where did the funds go to according to you?  Either Ukyo abused them for personal gain and then a lawsuit is pretty much the ONLY way you could ever hope to see anything back at all. Or (my guess) the funds still exist, but are seized by some three letter agency, in which case they may or may not be reimbursed at some point;  a (civil) lawsuit against Ukyo may not help a lot in that case, but it is not going to damage your odds of getting them back either.

As for jail time; individuals can only bring a civil case to court, there is no jail time penalty for civil cases. Only for criminal cases which can be brought by government agencies. ITs a safe bet a criminal case is already under investigation, whatever the result of that, a civil case wont change that outcome.

[CumpsD]

Back on topic:
How is work progressing on the portals and getting funds? This seems al more important than having a forum discussion on legalese from different countries, no?

Agreed thank you. Right now since most business dealings are still wrapping up from the holidays and we are waiting for responses, I am focused on working on a
solution to correct for the bitcoind block 177596 issue and rework the system to integrate with newer versions of bitcoind.

Once this is completed I will be working on the Ukyo.Loan portal while still working towards completing solutions to enable more payment dispersion.

-Ukyo

"bitcoind block 177596 issue" - Where can I find more info on this? Besides from seeing that it's quite a big block from 2012

[WeexUser]

"bitcoind block 177596 issue" - Where can I find more info on this? Besides from seeing that it's quite a big block from 2012

He meant block 277596 Here is some information I gathered in another thread:

<Problems with block 277956>

Some bitcoin clients wont accept block 277956 for some reason.

This is some #bitcoin-dev discussion about the issue:
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/12/29
http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2013/12/30 <- Ukyo asked for some advice in this one.

Even http://blockexplorer.com/ is stuck on block 277955.

[Ukyo]

Yes, 277596, sorry.

[canuck]

There is a certain reality to this and that is that Ukyo is unable to pay you back and you have no legal manner of forcing him to pay you back.  

You say that based on what? Where did the funds go to according to you?

I have as much information as you do on where the funds went.  How do you assume the courts would compel Ukyo to pay you back.  Also, again, what makes you think that payout would be denominated in Bitcoin, that it would be any notable fraction of what is owed and that it would be valued at Bitcoin's current price?

Shower me with your knowledge man.  I wanna know what is is that you know and the rest of us don't.