[BitFunder] Moving Forward/Resolution Process

[donut]

He owes me almost 4 BTC (Ukyo.Loan + bitfunder balance). I don't believe I'll ever see that money again, so I'd like to enter any class action lawsuit people start in the US.

I don't think I'm a good candidate for point of contact though.

[SOSLOVE868]

This is how it goes:
http://www.coindesk.com/chicago-court-freezes-mark-karpeles-assets-us/

Let's get a group action claim started against Montroll/Graet/Bitfunder/Weex as Edelson did and get Montroll's assets freezed asap while we can. Many would like to see Montroll's photo on the news as well.
Volunteers in the US wishing to be a point of contact for the lawyers please say so.

Jon Montroll, please be so kind to give an update on your progress, if any, asap or answer our questions directly on the court.

I am totally agree with this, and I will fly to Dallas by this sunday ,and have a pointment with a lawyer by the following Monday. I think I need someone to gathering all people to against Ukyo, not only myself. However because I am not living USA, It is really costly for me to fly from London to Dallas again and over again.

[donut]

This is how it goes:
http://www.coindesk.com/chicago-court-freezes-mark-karpeles-assets-us/

Let's get a group action claim started against Montroll/Graet/Bitfunder/Weex as Edelson did and get Montroll's assets freezed asap while we can. Many would like to see Montroll's photo on the news as well.
Volunteers in the US wishing to be a point of contact for the lawyers please say so.

Jon Montroll, please be so kind to give an update on your progress, if any, asap or answer our questions directly on the court.

I am totally agree with this, and I will fly to Dallas by this sunday ,and have a pointment with a lawyer by the following Monday. I think I need someone to gathering all people to against Ukyo, not only myself. However because I am not living USA, It is really costly for me to fly from London to Dallas again and over again.

There should be no reason for you to do this, we have videoconferencing.

[SebastianJu]

This is how it goes:
http://www.coindesk.com/chicago-court-freezes-mark-karpeles-assets-us/

Let's get a group action claim started against Montroll/Graet/Bitfunder/Weex as Edelson did and get Montroll's assets freezed asap while we can. Many would like to see Montroll's photo on the news as well.
Volunteers in the US wishing to be a point of contact for the lawyers please say so.

Jon Montroll, please be so kind to give an update on your progress, if any, asap or answer our questions directly on the court.

So? And then? What do you get from freezing the small money ukyo has? Or do you hope he lied and that the government somehow will be able to find a hidden bitcoin store? I dont see how this should happen. Lets say he still has 10,000USD... that would be 15.68BTC. He still owes 6000BTC from weexchange alone. Not to speak about ukyo loan. Lets say ukyo loan is another 4000BTC (i dont know how much it is really). So you would get 0.001568BTC per BTC owed. oO

So i dont get what freezing his accounts could help. Though i want to know what the problems are and depending on how ukyo behaves i will think about sueing him to get the information. At some point it doesnt make sense anymore to believe that something magically will happen to make the coins come back.

[thy]

By the way this thread should be renamed to [Bitfunder] Moving Backwards/Non-Resolution Process .
Plus it seems like the thread OP has been absent and silent for months now.
May be its time for interested solicitors to open a new thread.

OP last logged in was today, last post he made was 9 March...

[donut]

By the way this thread should be renamed to [Bitfunder] Moving Backwards/Non-Resolution Process .
Plus it seems like the thread OP has been absent and silent for months now.
May be its time for interested solicitors to open a new thread.

OP last logged in was today, last post he made was 9 March...

And where's the "moving forward" progress? What happened to my money?

[SebastianJu]

Assets mean bank accounts, home, car, property, investments, shares, ... which will be frozen and then distributed among solicitors according to the judge.
Therefore you should expect to get a very high percentage of the 6000 bitcoins as long as his home, car, property, investments and shares are frozen. In fact much higher than in the Mtgox case.
He will also very likely face criminal charges that he is trying to evade now due to inaction from creditors.

Othwewise expect to wait for years to come, get nothing at all or very tiny amounts at his discretion. That does not seem as an acceptable alternative, don't you think? The reality is that Montroll is today living on borrowed and stolen money that belongs to other people and plans to continue to do so indefinitely. Until someone stops the guy, of course.

Unless his assets are frozen he will be having less and less assets for years to come and you will never get anything back.
Let's get the money back where it belongs and get a group action started now!

In fact it seems he owes around 8000BTC. Thats 5 Million USD. I dont know what you think ukyo owns but i highly doubt its even 10% of that amount.
And thats not the only thing. You dont have a clue what happened. So its open if you can charge ukyo personally. Because only if he made something criminial you can hope to get his personal belongings. Its different for ukyo loan most probably, because it was a personal loan as far as i know. But before you can seize ukyo's private riches, which i doubt exist, you need to proof that he made something criminal. Otherwise its only a problem of the company weexchange, not of the ceo. I mean it would be cool when CEO's would have to pay for errors but you know thats not the case when CEO's fail. The same goes for politicians.

Thats why we need information first.

[glendall]

I respectfully suggest that you are not going to get any information outside out of court case though.

It's been many months and he has said nothing of substance about what happened, and has lied (remember that for the first 2 months or so he said this was a technical problem solely), so I don't think he'll really offer all of bag-holders unless he is in some sort of trouble. Right now he's probably just sipping margaritas in Tahiti laughing with how he got away with this. It's pretty easy to ignore pms and emails. Especially if you did something illegal and don't fear any repercussions from having done so.

I think getting money out of court case would be difficult but at least a) it'd be nice Ukyo had some financial hardship over this (like the hundreds he stole from) instead of presumably benefiting immensely     b) in a court case at least we'd finally hear non-bullshit from him    c) there is a very good chance it is looking like he did criminal things here, and he should get some justice for this.

I can only speak for myself but I'd be willing to give my share of BTC claimed to a court case and lawyers. Maybe all of his assets are only $500,000 out of the 5 million owed. But if more of us 'signed over' our 10% return (or whatever it is) of our lost money to go to the lawyers fees I'd much prefer that than nothing happening and the money being gone, which is likely what's going to happen with further inaction.

As I guy with a measly 1 btc in this though it is up to you bigger bag holders to decide what you are going to though, of course. I do recommend doing anything though, I think finally, now months later, people are finally starting to face up to the fact they are highly unlikely to get any money back from Ukyo. He currently has hardly anything to fear, and is living comfortably off of his thievery, so has little motivation to return his stolen proceeds.

[SebastianJu]

I respectfully suggest that you are not going to get any information outside out of court case though.

It's been many months and he has said about nothing about what happened, and has lied (remember that for the first 2 months or so he said this was a technical problem solely), so I don't think he'll really offer all of bag-holders unless he is in some sort of trouble. Right now he's probably just sipping margaritas in Tahiti laughing with how he got away with this. It's pretty easy to ignore pms and emails. Especially if you did something illegal and don't fear any repercussions from having done so.

The technical problem was only the first problem. Then came the second problem he claims is of legal nature. So when ukyo, neobee and others, that know what happened believe its better to not sue when you want to get your coins back then there is a strong chance that this is right. And its better to know whats wrong before you break maybe the last chance for success.

It doesnt matter anyway if he has some more months time. If he failed he cant escape. Trendon Shavers couldnt too. Bitcoin is a global community so where should he hide?

So no, i dont see a reason to rush. But if ukyo dont gives any info ill think about that again. I mean if there are legal reasons then for sure my lawyer will get some info.

[glendall]

Fair enough points.

Personally I don't trust Ukyo at all, he doesn't seem trustworthy to myself. This why I don't put much stock in his technical problems reasons.  Again I just don't buy it: for what possible reason could he not even explain the nature of the technical problem to us?  What technical problem could take more than a month of full time to resolve (yes I know it is possible, but I don't think likely). Why would he not enlist the free help that offered by some members of the community to fix said technical problem?  

Ok so let's say it was a technical problem.  Why would Ukyo:

a) be aware of the technical problem that caused him to lose btc or be unable to withdraw their deposits

and then

b) why would he continue to accept deposits for over a month knowing that he had the problem and he was unable to let people withdraw?

That just does not add up. It took a lot of badgering for him to even post on WeExchange that he was having the technical difficulties.

Because he has given next no details on anything at all, I'm forced to do guesswork. But the the most likely scenario that I can establish without much question is that something illegal happened and he has not been forthright with his on the reasons why all 'of our coins are gone'.

It's all been gone over so I'll save everyone the boredom but I think the timing of his massive loan is also quite suspicious.  (I mean how could I not see it as suspicious, really. )

[theMiracle]

...So when ukyo, neobee and others, that know what happened believe its better to not sue ...

Let me get this straight...  Ukyo (Jon) not wanting to be sued makes you think that you shouldn't sue him?  Would it surprise you to know that very few people would tell you that suing them is a good idea?  Would it surprise you even more that their friends (Danny) would also tell you that suing is unwise?

Frickin' Nobel-quality thinking here.

[Bananery]

Let me get this straight...  Ukyo (Jon) not wanting to be sued makes you think that you shouldn't sue him?  

No, it's about Danny and others who have large amounts on BTC stuck on weex not wanting to sue. Ukyo doesn't want to be sued which is obvious. Doesn't matter what he wants.

Those who have a lot of funds stuck don't want to sue, especially those who know what happened. If those guys are not suing, that means there is no point in suing.

[theMiracle]

I was addressing SebastianJu, who feels that it does matter...

...So when ukyo, neobee and others, that know what happened believe its better to not sue ...

I have further pointed out that Danny, being a friend of Ukyo's, would be unlikely to suggest involving teh law.
Which pretty much nulled SebastianJu's argument.

Assuming that major debtors' interests are aligned with yours also deserves some dynamite money.
If they are trying to get money out of Jon (who does not have enough to pay back everyone), why in the hell would they want *you* butting in with *your* lawyers and *your* hand out?

[SebastianJu]

I was addressing SebastianJu, who feels that it does matter...

...So when ukyo, neobee and others, that know what happened believe its better to not sue ...

I have further pointed out that Danny, being a friend of Ukyo's, would be unlikely to suggest involving teh law.
Which pretty much nulled SebastianJu's argument.

Assuming that major debtors' interests are aligned with yours also deserves some dynamite money.
If they are trying to get money out of Jon (who does not have enough to pay back everyone), why in the hell would they want *you* butting in with *your* lawyers and *your* hand out?

Bananery had it right. Those guys lost many coins themselves, they know what happened and they think its not good to sue now. Ukyo in itself is no reason of course except you add him some credits for his past. But when other big debtors say the same it means ukyo has a right point there most probably. Thats a strong hint that there might be better options. Of course... that doesnt mean that i will accept ukyo telling me nothing since i could not decide if its a clever scammer technique or a real reason then.

I did not get any contact till now from someone who knows what happened that told me i should not sue. Only ff96 claimed its best to let a lawyer get in contact which hints that its a legal problem that wont be solve with sueing.

@glendall... The technical problem was the first problem and that is known. Its the crashing bitcoin-deamon. Then there was the second problem that ukyo claimed its of legal nature. There was a third little problem with a block that didnt confirm or something. As far as i see it the technical problems are solved, only the remaining problem is in the work now. It sounds to me that ukyo works together with others for that and that he had to wait for them to act. That hints a bit that its really a legal matter.

Anyway... i think i gave the last info yesterday to my lawyer and they prepare the letter of demand... (whatever they do...) I hope my spent money brings something back.

In case the coins are seized i cant believe that this is legal since the coins arent owned by weexchange but they belong directly to persons. They cant use the coins as if they are funds owned by weexchange. Though thats my personal opinion, nothing a lawyer said. Just speculation.

[NotLambchop]

If I didn't make myself clear:

There is no plausible scenario in which *anyone trying to get money from Jon* would to tell you to sue.

Those planning to file a civil (tort) case against Jon would not tell you to sue him because you would be competing for the same (limited) funds.  The more people sue Jon, the less money each one will be able to get back, the messier the case, etc., etc.

Those looking for a solution outside of the legal system obviously don't want you to sue, but assuming that you'll somehow benefit from their efforts is unreasonable.  Backroom deals are seldom done to benefit the public.

[klabaki]

If I didn't make myself clear:

There is no plausible scenario in which *anyone trying to get money from Jon* would to tell you to sue.

Those planning to file a civil (tort) case against Jon would not tell you to sue him because you would be competing for the same (limited) funds.  The more people sue Jon, the less money each one will be able to get back, the messier the case, etc., etc.

Those looking for a solution outside of the legal system obviously don't want you to sue, but assuming that you'll somehow benefit from their efforts is unreasonable.  Backroom deals are seldom done to benefit the public.

I can't find your previous post on this subject?

[NotLambchop]

^theMiracle is my alt account.

[stereotype]

^theMiracle is my alt account.

Little slip there, Crumbs?

[theMiracle]

@stereotype:  Wait, NotLambchop is a sock?!   But then how come...  Oh god, this is all so new and confusing...

[SebastianJu]

If I didn't make myself clear:

There is no plausible scenario in which *anyone trying to get money from Jon* would to tell you to sue.

Those planning to file a civil (tort) case against Jon would not tell you to sue him because you would be competing for the same (limited) funds.  The more people sue Jon, the less money each one will be able to get back, the messier the case, etc., etc.

Those looking for a solution outside of the legal system obviously don't want you to sue, but assuming that you'll somehow benefit from their efforts is unreasonable.  Backroom deals are seldom done to benefit the public.

*lol* Multiple accounts are confusing right...

Theoretically i think youre right but ukyo not only owes privately but with a company too. The debtor's with ukyo loan could sue ukyo directly for the money. They have an advantage in sueing. But all weexchange debtor's have the problem that they only can sue when they sued weexchange first. Depending on if the company catches the problem or if ukyo made a legal error that makes him personally liable you have to sue then weexchange or ukyo in a civil case to seize funds.

Though i think ukyo wont have riches you can sue him for. The only hope is to find out where the coins went and get them back.