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Author Topic: [DEAD] DeepBit.net PPS+Prop,instant payouts, we pay for INVALID BLOCKS too  (Read 1455725 times)
slurch
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May 08, 2011, 01:20:30 AM
 #1201

I do have a question for you, Tycho. It seems like Deepbit is going to hit a 50% mark at some point in the extremely near future at the current rate of growth I've been seeing today. You'd mentioned earlier in this thread that you had no plans to exceed that 50% mark...but that may now be happening regardless. My question is whether or not we would be protected (as a pool) from actually executing the >50% attack on the network ourselves by way of some sort of subversion. I'm not horribly tech savvy (as evidenced by my posts around here, I'm sure), but I do see this as a huge potential issue if steps haven't been made to mitigate that sort of risk. I know lots of people around here have brought this up in different ways, but I just wanted to be direct about it.

Other than that one little concern, I've been having a great run in your pool all week. Thanks for having me along. Smiley

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[Tycho]
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May 08, 2011, 01:47:22 AM
 #1202

You'd mentioned earlier in this thread that you had no plans to exceed that 50% mark...but that may now be happening regardless. My question is whether or not we would be protected (as a pool) from actually executing the >50% attack on the network ourselves by way of some sort of subversion.
Looks like I was wrong about 50%, I thought it was impossible to reach due to pools competition.

I'm open to your proposals on handling such situation (even though I still don't think we can reach it permanently), so we could be more transparent to miners. I'm sure that there IS a solution; the fact of being >50% doesn't means that something bad will happen.

One of the things I can do right now - I'm going to contact slush and get his phone number, so we could notify each other about pool problems.

To mitigate the possible problems deepbit currently runs on servers located in different jurisdictions and we (deepbit admins) reside in other two different jurisdictions, so pool is relatively protected.

Also I want to remind you something from https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Quote
The attacker can't:

  • Reverse other people's transactions
  • Prevent transactions from being sent at all (they'll show as 0/unconfirmed)
  • Change the number of coins generated per block
  • Create coins out of thin air
  • Send coins that never belonged to him

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Veldy
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May 08, 2011, 02:03:09 AM
 #1203

Slush has barely kept up before this issue and certainly has not shown any interest in making the pool better.  He barely keeps it status quo [until today when it looks as if it died outright].  I hope that I am wrong, but it appears as if he just decided to check out.  While I like to trust, I am still a cynic and don't know that stepping in to work with another pool to regain your competition really allays the fears that people have about the 50% attack.  The fact is, that you [or your pool] is [especially with slush working with you should that be the case] make prime candidates for destroying the the bitcoin economy.   Personally, I would like you to close the pool to new members.  Do as BTCMine suggested and check all accounts.  And, do whatever it takes to make sure that your pool does not approach, little enough exceed the 50% point.  And if you are going to be directly working with slush, then I suggest that the combination of the two pools not be allowed to exceed the 50% mark.

I know this is asking a lot, but we all know that you are in it for the money and a healthy dose of cynicism is in order to keep bitcoin sound.

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TiagoTiago
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May 08, 2011, 02:36:15 AM
 #1204

It's mangling email adddresses with plus addressing

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

Wanna gimme some BTC for any or no reason? 1FmvtS66LFh6ycrXDwKRQTexGJw4UWiqDX Smiley

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gusti
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May 08, 2011, 03:14:51 AM
 #1205

Tycho has done a great work on his pool reliability, not a small task.

Any solution based on limiting or auto-limiting his pool power, has to take into account
that he also deserves a just retribution for all the work done.

I suggest that he may license his pool software to a trusted community member,
who could be interested in running another instance of the pool with similar dedication
and reliability.

Collussion between them to attack the network will be very improbable.




 

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[Tycho]
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May 08, 2011, 03:20:32 AM
 #1206

The fact is, that you [or your pool] is [especially with slush working with you should that be the case] make prime candidates for destroying the the bitcoin economy.   Personally, I would like you to close the pool to new members.
I can't see how it can be bad for bitcoin economy. Moreover, it would be very good to see how bitcoin network will instantly heal itself in case of something.

About closing registration - i'm not going to do something that is bad for my clients. Closing the registration is like trying to hide the problem, not fix it.

And if you are going to be directly working with slush, then I suggest that the combination of the two pools not be allowed to exceed the 50% mark.
I believe in self-regulation and free market.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
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Veldy
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May 08, 2011, 03:21:24 AM
 #1207

My prediction is that if his pool gets close to, or more important exceeds the 50% mark that there will be a sell off of bitcoins and a steep drop in price.  Tycho, do not let this happen.

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Veldy
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May 08, 2011, 03:24:03 AM
 #1208

The fact is, that you [or your pool] is [especially with slush working with you should that be the case] make prime candidates for destroying the the bitcoin economy.   Personally, I would like you to close the pool to new members.
I can't see how it can be bad for bitcoin economy. Moreover, it would be very good to see how bitcoin network will instantly heal itself in case of something.

About closing registration - i'm not going to do something that is bad for my clients. Closing the registration is like trying to hide the problem, not fix it.

And if you are going to be directly working with slush, then I suggest that the combination of the two pools not be allowed to exceed the 50% mark.
I believe in self-regulation and free market.

I am sorry, but I believe you addressed every point with the worst possible response.  May each reader decide for themselves.

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gusti
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May 08, 2011, 03:26:02 AM
 #1209

My prediction is that if his pool gets close to, or more important exceeds the 50% mark that there will be a sell off of bitcoins and a steep drop in price.  Tycho, do not let this happen.

That is not going to happen if network is not compromised.


If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
error
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May 08, 2011, 03:29:17 AM
 #1210

Wait, does somebody seriously think Tycho is going to start double spending? I grant you that he might attempt it, in some parallel universe, but that would be the end of Tycho. So I think it's very unlikely.

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Veldy
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May 08, 2011, 03:44:30 AM
 #1211

My prediction is that if his pool gets close to, or more important exceeds the 50% mark that there will be a sell off of bitcoins and a steep drop in price.  Tycho, do not let this happen.

That is not going to happen if network is not compromised.



People may sell their bitcoins just to avoid the risk.  You cannot avoid the human emotional factor in shy market.

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gusti
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May 08, 2011, 03:48:02 AM
 #1212

Wait, does somebody seriously think Tycho is going to start double spending? I grant you that he might attempt it, in some parallel universe, but that would be the end of Tycho. So I think it's very unlikely.

Unlikely or not, I agree that we need to find a solution to this issue.
Obviously, without hurting Tycho's business.  

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
JoeTheTech
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May 08, 2011, 03:48:43 AM
 #1213

I don't know how this would work or even if it would solve anything but maybe the suggestion will spark a thought somehow.

Maybe the pool could be split in some way. Maybe make a second pool and migrate miners over to the new pool to even them out. [Tycho] would be running two pools but somehow it would be transparent to the miners

Example, and please don't associate my numbers with accuracy or fairness, create a second pool server and for every 2 > 1GH/s miners allow 4 < 900 MH/s  miners to work in the same pool. Another way to look at it is to group 1-5 big time hashers with 8-10 smaller hashers and separate these groups on different servers.

This is only meant to help the thinking process.

Cheers.

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mjsbuddha
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May 08, 2011, 03:49:39 AM
 #1214

The thing about distributed systems like bitcoin is, weak points are identified as damaged and routed around. the network is fluid. if tychos pool is used to attack the network then tychos pool will instantly dissolve. slushes pool just went down, is the bitcoin network broken now? no, the damage was identified and routed around.
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May 08, 2011, 03:50:35 AM
 #1215

My prediction is that if his pool gets close to, or more important exceeds the 50% mark that there will be a sell off of bitcoins and a steep drop in price.  Tycho, do not let this happen.

That is not going to happen if network is not compromised.



People may sell their bitcoins just to avoid the risk.  You cannot avoid the human emotional factor in shy market.


Pls remember that this risk was inherent to the design of the network, much before deepbit ever existed.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
gusti
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May 08, 2011, 03:52:56 AM
 #1216

I don't know how this would work or even if it would solve anything but maybe the suggestion will spark a thought somehow.

Maybe the pool could be split in some way. Maybe make a second pool and migrate miners over to the new pool to even them out. [Tycho] would be running two pools but somehow it would be transparent to the miners

Example, and please don't associate my numbers with accuracy or fairness, create a second pool server and for every 2 > 1GH/s miners allow 4 < 900 MH/s  miners to work in the same pool. Another way to look at it is to group 1-5 big time hashers with 8-10 smaller hashers and separate these groups on different servers.

This is only meant to help the thinking process.

Cheers.

Splitted pools need to be under different administrative control, I suggested Tycho may license the pool system
to a trusted, interested community member.

If you don't own the private keys, you don't own the coins.
error
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May 08, 2011, 04:00:04 AM
 #1217

Ah, you mean the government attacking Tycho? Yes, it's possible, and it's a risk. Though if it happened, all the miners would scatter like birds to any other pool. They are, after all, the reason Deepbit is as large as it is.

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[Tycho]
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May 08, 2011, 04:02:13 AM
 #1218

Wait, does somebody seriously think Tycho is going to start double spending? I grant you that he might attempt it, in some parallel universe, but that would be the end of Tycho. So I think it's very unlikely.
It may sound crazy, but I've seen governments throughout history do a lot of crazy shit, and for less reason. I'd just rather there not be the potential for such an action.
I'll repeat my answer from the previous page, just in case :)

Quote
To mitigate the possible problems deepbit currently runs on servers located in different jurisdictions and we (deepbit admins) reside in other two different jurisdictions, so pool is relatively protected.
So we can move all the mining power from one country to another in a few seconds. And of course I'll have enough time to warn users.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net - Both payment schemes (including PPS), instant payout, no invalid blocks !
ICBIT Trading platform : USD/BTC futures trading, Bitcoin difficulty futures (NEW!). Third year in bitcoin business.
Litt
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May 08, 2011, 04:05:30 AM
 #1219

If you operate the largest bitcoin pool and you get caught skimming coins because you don't realize the oppotunity, you deserve to lose your pool and your place in bitcoin history. Not to mention you will lose a nice chunk of change from what is the "3%" of ever growing mining machine known as deepbit.net. Tycho added something like 4ghash in the last couple days. How much did you guys add? Would you mess it up if it were you?

Tycho doesn't seem to want to mess this up definitely has a right kind of mentality as an operator from what I can see. He's trying to improve communication with pool participants and focusing on the pool's reliability and transparency. He's doing well lately and I feel that it's well deserved after watching how he operates and improved his pool. He does charge the highest percentage in fees, but you really get what you pay for and at the end it's a very small price to pay for some certainty in an activity with so much left uncertain. Reliablity is worth it to me every time. He makes himself available and keeps the pool running 24/7. You never see threads about deepbit being down with problems and it's not a coincidence that deepbit is #1 right now imo.
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May 08, 2011, 04:15:51 AM
 #1220

Can someone please explain more about this "Attack" against the bitcoin network and what a "evil" pool operator could actually do?

As I understand it... they may double spend coins they already have but that would only fool someone into accepting the trade for a short time and quickly become noticed by the receiving party.

They can't reverse any previous transactions already in a block or create coin. Right?

Probably should be a new thread and keep this one for real pool discussions related to this pool only.

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