[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[anp31]

Agree, changing rules during the game is very unfair

[SuperClam]

Agree, changing rules during the game is very unfair

Such a change is extremely unlikely.

It would require near complete consensus of all of the Devs as well as the community and would take a reasonable amount of time to test, implement, and announce, among other requirements.

[Rampion]

What makes CLAM interesting is precisely its distribution - the fact that everyone who had some BTC in May 2014 was rewarded with a few CLAM has huge marketing potential. The fact that there's still 15M CLAM "undigged" is NOT a liability, on the contrary it is a demonstration that there's still a lot of people that could potentially enter the market and community.

Stopping the digging would be pretty lame - and CLAM would become "yet another scamcoin". Furthermore, if such a change is announced (the end of digging), I'm sure you would see the opposite reaction you'd expect: people would hurry to claim their CLAMs to dump them asap.

[gordob]

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. I've seen quite a few people in the Just-Dice chat arguing that the 15 million "undug" CLAM is a huge liability, and makes people hold back from investing in the coin.

I am no guru on this but a couple thoughts from my side

1. This person has to own allot of Btc address, incl private, to even claim these free clam digs!
Q: How would anyone have access to so many addresses?
Q: Person has not made themselves known, surely if you had all these addresses and clams, you would shout - not in this case
Q: - Based on the above have the required amount of btc in each address before May 12 2014?
-- all seems questionable and illegitimate claims of clam

If not, then i would love to hear from this person or group of people involved?

[Rampion]

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. I've seen quite a few people in the Just-Dice chat arguing that the 15 million "undug" CLAM is a huge liability, and makes people hold back from investing in the coin.

I am no guru on this but a couple thoughts from my side

1. This person has to own allot of Btc address, incl private, to even claim these free clam digs!
Q: How would anyone have access to so many addresses?
Q: Person has not made themselves known, surely if you had all these addresses and clams, you would shout - not in this case
Q: - Based on the above have the required amount of btc in each address before May 12 2014?
-- all seems questionable and illegitimate claims of clam

If not, then i would love to hear from this person or group of people involved?

Any successful service that has a wallet per user will control MANY funded addresses. Think about online wallets, markets, laundry services, gambling sites, etc. etc. etc.

You could be looking at hundreds of thousands of addresses controlled by a single entity.

That's in fact the major tradeoff with "blockchain distribution" - service operators will get the lion share of the pie, while their users will get nothing.

[oldkolobok]

Just found this list on Just-Dice:

biggest cumulative amount wagered in last 12 hours

+---------+-----------------+
| uid     | wagered         |
+---------+-----------------+
|  986902 | 26,766.11726771 |
| 1192330 |  4,826.64010714 |
| 1208485 |  4,048.47193957 |
| 1159336 |  2,286.08000000 |
| 1192465 |  1,410.33322550 |
|     120 |  1,176.11407621 |
| 1125335 |    844.62820072 |
| 1131019 |    710.79843750 |
| 1209281 |    701.37071454 |
|  777777 |    648.37109375 |

Seems like the guy who is digging up all these Clams likes to take a risk 

[chilly2k]

Just found this list on Just-Dice:

biggest cumulative amount wagered in last 12 hours

+---------+-----------------+
| uid     | wagered         |
+---------+-----------------+
|  986902 | 26,766.11726771 |
| 1192330 |  4,826.64010714 |
| 1208485 |  4,048.47193957 |
| 1159336 |  2,286.08000000 |
| 1192465 |  1,410.33322550 |
|     120 |  1,176.11407621 |
| 1125335 |    844.62820072 |
| 1131019 |    710.79843750 |
| 1209281 |    701.37071454 |
|  777777 |    648.37109375 |

Seems like the guy who is digging up all these Clams likes to take a risk 

  No...  He's running a bot.

10:37:11 *** (986902) <botox> [#783773238] bet 1.08584688 CLAM at 80% and won 0.25788863 CLAM ***

[Cyrax89721]

Notice how the digs are all from initial distribution blocks 9121 and 9122... Looking back further, I see that the digging took ~3.6% of the rewards from block 9128 (256 of 7120), then took 3.6% of the rewards from block 9127 (261 of 7120), then took 3.3% of the rewards from block 9122 (164 of 4984). Blocks 9123 through 9126 only had 356, 0, 712, and 356 rewards each, so I didn't bother checking the percentage claimed from those.

So it looks like this guy, whoever he is, is able to claim around 3.5% of the rewards in each block, and is working his way backwards through the blocks.  According to xploited, the initial distribution ordered the rewards randomly, so there's no reason to think that he won't be able to claim a similar percentage of the rewards from all the blocks.

Regarding the discussion on why he might be digging the clams in this fashion, one of the Dev's mentioned that it would be more difficult for them to do it this way because of the randomization, and the assumption is that they're doing it this way to perhaps send a message to us of their motivation.  I disagree that it would be more difficult.

I wonder if they didn't just grab a dump of the whole CLAM blockchain up to the last block where the initial distribution took place, exported all the diggable addresses in the order they were funded, and is just backtracking their way through the list while matching each funded addresses to ones that they own.  This makes the most sense to me, anyways.

[oldkolobok]

Wow where is all that buy support on Polo suddenly coming from? Is it fake ?

[statdude]

Wow where is all that buy support on Polo suddenly coming from? Is it fake ?

Probably whoever just dug/dumped is now realizing he has a lot of CLAM and better to pump it back up

[taxmanmt5]

Wow where is all that buy support on Polo suddenly coming from? Is it fake ?

Probably whoever just dug/dumped is now realizing he has a lot of CLAM and better to pump it back up

May be its true... its better if he dump when price is more rather than when its down !

[oldkolobok]

Wow where is all that buy support on Polo suddenly coming from? Is it fake ?

Probably whoever just dug/dumped is now realizing he has a lot of CLAM and better to pump it back up

Seems possible, but its allready removed. The total amount of buy orders went from 200 BTC to 1500 BTC in a few minutes. Now back to 200 again.

[hrshak462]

Just started looking at Clams.  Is this a typo on the website where it mentions May 2013?

http://clamclient.com/start/download/

[BayAreaCoins]

Just started looking at Clams.  Is this a typo on the website where it mentions May 2013?

http://clamclient.com/start/download/

Yes that is a typo...

May 12, 2014 - Source: www.Clamcoin.org

Also, I just wanted to chip in my two cents in regards to forcing people to wait after digging their CLAMS.  I am strongly against this.  It sounds Dooglus was at one point as well.

I believe CLAM should remain how it is or else it will be viewed by everyone as a scamcoin with developers/dooglus who are only interested in their own profits/protecting their profits by using code.

The rules are fair... I vote leave them.

I do think the 1CLAM stakes may need to be rolled back, but that is a conversation for another day. (perhaps peg it to the CPI or something along those lines)

[joust]

Just started looking at Clams.  Is this a typo on the website where it mentions May 2013?

http://clamclient.com/start/download/

Yes that is a typo...

May 12, 2014 - Source: www.Clamcoin.org

Also, I just wanted to chip in my two cents in regards to forcing people to wait after digging their CLAMS.  I am strongly against this.  It sounds Dooglus was at one point as well.

I believe CLAM should remain how it is or else it will be viewed by everyone as a scamcoin with developers/dooglus who are only interested in their own profits/protecting their profits by using code.

The rules are fair... I vote leave them.

I do think the 1CLAM stakes may need to be rolled back, but that is a conversation for another day. (perhaps peg it to the CPI or something along those lines)

Is dooglus the developer of clam? I know he uses it on his website for gambling but didnt know he was the inventoe of clam. I don't think he is going for profit, he has always been fair and will stay it!

[xploited]

Just started looking at Clams.  Is this a typo on the website where it mentions May 2013?

http://clamclient.com/start/download/

Yes that is a typo...

May 12, 2014 - Source: www.Clamcoin.org

Also, I just wanted to chip in my two cents in regards to forcing people to wait after digging their CLAMS.  I am strongly against this.  It sounds Dooglus was at one point as well.

I believe CLAM should remain how it is or else it will be viewed by everyone as a scamcoin with developers/dooglus who are only interested in their own profits/protecting their profits by using code.

The rules are fair... I vote leave them.

I do think the 1CLAM stakes may need to be rolled back, but that is a conversation for another day. (perhaps peg it to the CPI or something along those lines)

Is dooglus the developer of clam? I know he uses it on his website for gambling but didnt know he was the inventoe of clam. I don't think he is going for profit, he has always been fair and will stay it!

He did not invent clams. Me and creativecuroisty were the original creators. He is however a CLAM dev, a constant contributor and a valued member of the CLAM community.

[galbros]

I in no way think that the rules or protocol for clams should be changed because of the "dig whale".  I agree with others who say that will just make it a scam coin.

xploited I think what you and CC have come up with for an initial distribution was great and very fair.  I agree with dooglus that it is a great incentive to check out the coin.

Maybe when you were first working on it, it may have made sense to reduce the amount of coins one would get from digging gradually every year or so, sort of like the mining block reward reduction, but it is too late for that now, and this guy would still be digging huge amounts.

My question is what is the estimate, given his current rate of digging, will this go on?  Is he claiming like 10,000 clam per day, with an estimated 500k clam, so we are looking at 50 days of this?

I realize he can stop selling or digging at any time, but it may comfort some to know how long before this selling pressure should abate.

[dooglus]

Regarding the discussion on why he might be digging the clams in this fashion, one of the Dev's mentioned that it would be more difficult for them to do it this way because of the randomization, and the assumption is that they're doing it this way to perhaps send a message to us of their motivation.  I disagree that it would be more difficult.

I wonder if they didn't just grab a dump of the whole CLAM blockchain up to the last block where the initial distribution took place, exported all the diggable addresses in the order they were funded, and is just backtracking their way through the list while matching each funded addresses to ones that they own.  This makes the most sense to me, anyways.

It seems to me you either:

a) check each of the 100k addresses you own to see it if it funded, or

b) check each of the 3 million funded address to see if you own it

(a) is 30 times less work than (b) - so why would you do (b)?

Just started looking at Clams.  Is this a typo on the website where it mentions May 2013?

http://clamclient.com/start/download/

Yes that is a typo...

May 12, 2014 - Source: www.Clamcoin.org

It's possible for anyone to submit fixes to the CLAM website. I just submitted a pull request to fix the date:
  https://github.com/nochowderforyou/nochowderforyou.github.io/pull/3

Once that pull request is merged, the website updates itself automatically.

Also, I just wanted to chip in my two cents in regards to forcing people to wait after digging their CLAMS.  I am strongly against this.  It sounds Dooglus was at one point as well.

I don't think anyone is suggesting a delay. The discussion I saw last night was from people proposing an expiry date for CLAM digging. For example, if you don't dig up and spend your CLAMs by the end of the year, they vanish forever. That's obviously a good thing for the people who already dug up their CLAMs and a bad thing for those who didn't...

I believe CLAM should remain how it is or else it will be viewed by everyone as a scamcoin with developers/dooglus who are only interested in their own profits/protecting their profits by using code.

It's hardly a "scam" if the developers "only" give away free coins for the first 18 months instead of forever. But putting an expiry date on digging does seem to remove one of the most innovative qualities of CLAM, as I see it.

Is dooglus the developer of clam? I know he uses it on his website for gambling but didnt know he was the inventoe of clam. I don't think he is going for profit, he has always been fair and will stay it!

I am *a* developer of CLAM, but not its inventor. I didn't hear about CLAM until it had been live for quite some time, and so wasn't at all involved in the initial distribution. I've nothing against making a profit - I don't think making a profit is incompatible with being fair. I attempt to be both fair and profitable.

My question is what is the estimate, given his current rate of digging, will this go on?  Is he claiming like 10,000 clam per day, with an estimated 500k clam, so we are looking at 50 days of this?

It's hard to get a clear idea of how it will play out. Assuming he is able to dig 3% from each block, that gives him 0.03 (3%) of 3208032 (funded addresses) * 4.60545574 (CLAMs per address) = 443,233 CLAMs. At 15k per day that's 30 days. But there's no reason to assume the digging won't speed up or slow down. Indeed, we can't actually detect "digging" at all. All we can detect is when dug outputs move for the first time. It's quite possible that he already has 500k CLAMs in his wallet, and is just spending them one output at a time. In other words, "digging up old CLAMs" doesn't leave a mark on the blockchain. To dig all you do is import your old wallet.dat file into your CLAM client. Nothing hits the network until you move or stake those dug CLAMs, which is what we're seeing now.

Here's an updated chart of the digging action:



and here's an independently generated chart, showing how the recent digs fit in with the all-time growth:

http://www.presstab.pw/phpexplorer/CLAM/charts.php?type=clamsupply

[Cyrax89721]

Regarding the discussion on why he might be digging the clams in this fashion, one of the Dev's mentioned that it would be more difficult for them to do it this way because of the randomization, and the assumption is that they're doing it this way to perhaps send a message to us of their motivation.  I disagree that it would be more difficult.

I wonder if they didn't just grab a dump of the whole CLAM blockchain up to the last block where the initial distribution took place, exported all the diggable addresses in the order they were funded, and is just backtracking their way through the list while matching each funded addresses to ones that they own.  This makes the most sense to me, anyways.

It seems to me you either:

a) check each of the 100k addresses you own to see it if it funded, or

b) check each of the 3 million funded address to see if you own it

(a) is 30 times less work than (b) - so why would you do (b)?

I'm not very familiar with the client;  I'm guessing this means you can bulk enter all your addresses and it automatically digs them for you?

[kolloh]

Indeed, we can't actually detect "digging" at all. All we can detect is when dug outputs move for the first time. It's quite possible that he already has 500k CLAMs in his wallet, and is just spending them one output at a time. In other words, "digging up old CLAMs" doesn't leave a mark on the blockchain. To dig all you do is import your old wallet.dat file into your CLAM client. Nothing hits the network until you move or stake those dug CLAMs, which is what we're seeing now.

Interesting. Although, if they were already all dug up, the block order that they are being moved in seems to make even less sense.