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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804933 times)
Wekkel
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October 13, 2014, 11:39:43 AM
 #13781

The speculation part of Bitcoin is indeed a necessary aspect of Bitcoin's ascent. But the price of a single Bitcoin in USD is not the most interesting aspect of bitcoin. The most intriguing part of Bitcoin is its transparent decentralised ledger. This ledger cannot be negotiated with, cannot be extorted or bribed and not seized. It can be accessed universally and anywhere electronically. it's a way of keeping score without anyone interfering.

We all know that the current monetary system comes with perks that lead to a transfer of wealth from ordinary citizens to governments. People are increasingly becoming aware of this and will be looking for escapes. The great aspects of the Bitcoin ledger will induce people over time to keep score in an honest ledger instead of obfuscated official ledgers. Slowly but surely the honest ledger will show its upside compared to a mismanaged ledger. The USD centric approach of today still limits the penetration of decentralized ledgers but over time a critical mass will cross the line. I expect currency turbulence to hasten this process, although it may take many years. It will be the youth leading and not pensioners with a large stake in the current system. The trust and comfort found in banks has catched firm hold in people's believe system.

In the end, the honest transparent ledgers will prevail. Now that bypassing the official ledger is possible (at least - theoretically), nothing can stop this from happening over time, even if it takes a generation.

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Zarathustra
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October 13, 2014, 12:28:02 PM
 #13782

The real question is whether adoption eventually will increase not only on the merchant side. Since 10 month, it doesn't.

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular
What a great chance to say adoption has been setting new records for months you just missed:

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=28&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Yes, I know, monthly or quarterly graph is looking better than the daily one. But while merchant adoption more than quadrupled, the transaction number encreased 10 percent.
And @NewLiberty is right as well. A year without a new high in adoption is nothing special:
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

That's why I think that the question is whether this will happen again as it always did before. I think it will.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
FNG
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October 13, 2014, 12:36:39 PM
 #13783

The real question is whether adoption eventually will increase not only on the merchant side. Since 10 month, it doesn't.

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular
What a great chance to say adoption has been setting new records for months you just missed:

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=2year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=28&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Yes, I know, monthly or quarterly graph is looking better than the daily one. But while merchant adoption more than quadrupled, the transaction number encreased 10 percent.
And @NewLiberty is right as well. A year without an new high in adoption is nothing special:
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

That's why I said that the question is whether this will happen again as it always did before. I think it will.
A lot of transactions happen within coinbase
World
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October 13, 2014, 12:47:17 PM
 #13784

Finland govt should buy BTCs and add bitcoin functionality to every Nokia smartphones, feature phones, mobile phones be default.
http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/13/finlands-credit-rating-downgraded-and-its-all-apples-fault-says-prime-minister/

Supporting people with beautiful creative ideas. Bitcoin is because of the developers,exchanges,merchants,miners,investors,users,machines and blockchain technologies work together.
Hunyadi
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October 13, 2014, 12:54:15 PM
 #13785

Finland govt should buy BTCs and add bitcoin functionality to every Nokia smartphones, feature phones, mobile phones be default.
http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/13/finlands-credit-rating-downgraded-and-its-all-apples-fault-says-prime-minister/

Nokia sold their smartphone business to Microsoft.

▂▃▅▇█▓▒░BTC-Cultist░▒▓█▇▅▃▂
World
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October 13, 2014, 01:32:34 PM
 #13786

Finland govt should buy BTCs and add bitcoin functionality to every Nokia smartphones, feature phones, mobile phones be default.
http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/13/finlands-credit-rating-downgraded-and-its-all-apples-fault-says-prime-minister/

Nokia sold their smartphone business to Microsoft.
thx oh… I see for $7 billion last year.

Supporting people with beautiful creative ideas. Bitcoin is because of the developers,exchanges,merchants,miners,investors,users,machines and blockchain technologies work together.
NewLiberty
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October 13, 2014, 02:24:22 PM
 #13787

The real question is whether adoption eventually will increase not only on the merchant side. Since 10 month, it doesn't.

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular

Due to cherry picking graph start and end points you fail to make your point here.
Be less arbitrary in your favor.  This is not how science is done.

No?



Scientist Predicts 60% Market Collapse

Quote
Chris Martenson is a world-renowned expert on identifying dangerous, yet hidden, exponential growth patterns in global economies, energy demand, and food consumption...

And he is predicting a 60% stock market collapse will strike in the next three months.

Martenson’s opinion isn’t to be taken lightly, as his research is highly regarded by the United Nations, UK Parliament, and Fortune 500 companies.

His shocking forecast is based on a new alarming pattern he’s identified — he’s calling it “a dreaded triple top” (pictured below).





I think this gonna be the much needed boost for bitcoin in the comming months.





Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
lol
Right.  That wasn't science either.  It is not science when you decide that 9/11 and the financial meltdown of the last decade are going to be repeated simply because some stock index reaches the same price it was when those previous two events happened.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
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FNG
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October 13, 2014, 02:39:05 PM
 #13788

Stock markets still bleeding.


 Grin
cypherdoc
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October 13, 2014, 03:44:01 PM
 #13789

Marc Andreessen gets it:



From this thread: https://twitter.com/MParekh/status/520769140189974530

interesting insights, thanks for the link

Greed is Bitcoins killer app. Incentivising early adoption and evangelizing by early adopters bootstraps it and provides the necessary marketing.

as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.
rocks
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October 13, 2014, 04:42:38 PM
 #13790

Marc Andreessen gets it:



From this thread: https://twitter.com/MParekh/status/520769140189974530

interesting insights, thanks for the link

Greed is Bitcoins killer app. Incentivising early adoption and evangelizing by early adopters bootstraps it and provides the necessary marketing.

as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Don't call yourself an admitted speculator, instead call yourself a venture capital investor (or maybe an angle for you early early adopters). It's closer to the truth, even if you are just sitting back watching, by speculating you are raising the price which trickels into the rest of the bitcoin economy. You yourself are also active in the marketing department which is critical at this phase.....
wachtwoord
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October 13, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
 #13791


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

Melbustus
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October 13, 2014, 05:15:23 PM
 #13792


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.


Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
cypherdoc
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October 13, 2014, 05:32:40 PM
 #13793

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/521715097493053440
cypherdoc
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October 13, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
 #13794

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/521715723744604160
rocks
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October 13, 2014, 05:38:02 PM
 #13795


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Most people who got into bitcoin early I think will be able to withstand the "you just got lucky" attacks by peers or the population at large. The smart ones also won't flaunt it but simply create investment income and retire from day jobs quietly.

My real concern is these attacks may result in some form of "windfall profits" tax. If bitcoin becomes what we all think it may become and the global populace eventually recognizes it as a primary form of money, then there probably will be attempts spread out the out-sized early adopter gains gains through the tax structure.

There will be lots of arguments around "justice", "equality" and "fairness" but the result will simply be confiscation through taxation. It's not fair that you have $150M in bitcoin cypherdoc, you only need $50M (or $10M or $2M), anything more is greedy and selfish.

If bitcoin grows into trillions of dollars, governments all over the world are going to want a very large cut, and there are lots of arguments to justify this cut to the voters. These justifications BTW were the whole reason bitcoin was created in the first place.

TL;DR - The tax code is the wrench

Wekkel
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October 13, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
 #13796

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

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cypherdoc
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October 13, 2014, 05:40:56 PM
 #13797


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Most people who got into bitcoin early I think will be able to withstand the "you just got lucky" attacks by peers or the population at large. The smart ones also won't flaunt it but simply create investment income and retire from day jobs quietly.

My real concern is these attacks may result in some form of "windfall profits" tax. If bitcoin becomes what we all think it may become and the global populace eventually recognizes it as a primary form of money, then there probably will be attempts spread out the out-sized early adopter gains gains through the tax structure.

There will be lots of arguments around "justice", "equality" and "fairness" but the result will simply be confiscation through taxation. It's not fair that you have $150M in bitcoin cypherdoc, you only need $50M (or $10M or $2M), anything more is greedy and selfish.

If bitcoin grows into trillions of dollars, governments all over the world are going to want a very large cut, and there are lots of arguments to justify this cut to the voters. These justifications BTW were the whole reason bitcoin was created in the first place.

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.
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October 13, 2014, 05:53:29 PM
 #13798

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

I'm guessing they could only enforce anything at the fiat interface (bank account level).

Taxing users for bitcoin to physical goods transactions could only be a written law that users might or might not abide by. The same goes for posting cash around in envelopes.

rocks
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October 13, 2014, 05:54:25 PM
 #13799

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins
Anonymizing your coins doesn't help, either you sold them or you have them.

A windfall profits tax can easily be enabled by creating a tax event. For example let's say the government decides to eventually recognize bitcoin as money and no longer property, that event could be interpreted as a tax event forcing taxes on all unrealized gains from converting "property" into money. This isn't far fetched, EVERYTHING is interpreted/justified through the tax code today.

I think it's wise to either:
1) Be like Satoshi and ensure you are 100% hidden, or
2) Be completely transparent and honest with the government in your bitcoin dealings, including public posts, because it all will be used against you. I am following 2. It's a free bitcoin world so feel free to do what makes sense for you.
Syke
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October 13, 2014, 05:56:31 PM
 #13800

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

The same way they tax the cash market. Lots of small businesses run on mainly untraceable cash, yet they still pay their taxes. Fear of penalties, jailtime, etc.

Buy & Hold
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