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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013846 times)
FNG
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October 13, 2014, 02:39:05 PM
 #13761

Stock markets still bleeding.


 Grin
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October 13, 2014, 03:44:01 PM
 #13762

Marc Andreessen gets it:



From this thread: https://twitter.com/MParekh/status/520769140189974530

interesting insights, thanks for the link

Greed is Bitcoins killer app. Incentivising early adoption and evangelizing by early adopters bootstraps it and provides the necessary marketing.

as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.
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October 13, 2014, 04:42:38 PM
 #13763

Marc Andreessen gets it:



From this thread: https://twitter.com/MParekh/status/520769140189974530

interesting insights, thanks for the link

Greed is Bitcoins killer app. Incentivising early adoption and evangelizing by early adopters bootstraps it and provides the necessary marketing.

as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Don't call yourself an admitted speculator, instead call yourself a venture capital investor (or maybe an angle for you early early adopters). It's closer to the truth, even if you are just sitting back watching, by speculating you are raising the price which trickels into the rest of the bitcoin economy. You yourself are also active in the marketing department which is critical at this phase.....
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October 13, 2014, 04:57:08 PM
 #13764


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

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October 13, 2014, 05:15:23 PM
 #13765


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.


Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
Cryptoasset rankings and metrics for investors: http://onchainfx.com
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October 13, 2014, 05:32:40 PM
 #13766

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/521715097493053440
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October 13, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
 #13767

https://twitter.com/cypherdoc2/status/521715723744604160
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October 13, 2014, 05:38:02 PM
 #13768


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Most people who got into bitcoin early I think will be able to withstand the "you just got lucky" attacks by peers or the population at large. The smart ones also won't flaunt it but simply create investment income and retire from day jobs quietly.

My real concern is these attacks may result in some form of "windfall profits" tax. If bitcoin becomes what we all think it may become and the global populace eventually recognizes it as a primary form of money, then there probably will be attempts spread out the out-sized early adopter gains gains through the tax structure.

There will be lots of arguments around "justice", "equality" and "fairness" but the result will simply be confiscation through taxation. It's not fair that you have $150M in bitcoin cypherdoc, you only need $50M (or $10M or $2M), anything more is greedy and selfish.

If bitcoin grows into trillions of dollars, governments all over the world are going to want a very large cut, and there are lots of arguments to justify this cut to the voters. These justifications BTW were the whole reason bitcoin was created in the first place.

TL;DR - The tax code is the wrench

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October 13, 2014, 05:40:02 PM
 #13769

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

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October 13, 2014, 05:40:56 PM
 #13770


as an admitted speculator, i can't tell you how much criticism i took in 2011 for speculating.

Whatever you do people are going to give you shit one way or another.

Yeah. In the bitcoin-success case, there's going to be a slew of really annoying "you just got lucky" attacks, with zero appreciation for the depth of thought and strength of conviction required to initiate and hold these positions. Not to mention the efforts many of us spend educating others and combating ignorance and stupidity every day.

Most people who got into bitcoin early I think will be able to withstand the "you just got lucky" attacks by peers or the population at large. The smart ones also won't flaunt it but simply create investment income and retire from day jobs quietly.

My real concern is these attacks may result in some form of "windfall profits" tax. If bitcoin becomes what we all think it may become and the global populace eventually recognizes it as a primary form of money, then there probably will be attempts spread out the out-sized early adopter gains gains through the tax structure.

There will be lots of arguments around "justice", "equality" and "fairness" but the result will simply be confiscation through taxation. It's not fair that you have $150M in bitcoin cypherdoc, you only need $50M (or $10M or $2M), anything more is greedy and selfish.

If bitcoin grows into trillions of dollars, governments all over the world are going to want a very large cut, and there are lots of arguments to justify this cut to the voters. These justifications BTW were the whole reason bitcoin was created in the first place.

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.
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October 13, 2014, 05:53:29 PM
 #13771

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

I'm guessing they could only enforce anything at the fiat interface (bank account level).

Taxing users for bitcoin to physical goods transactions could only be a written law that users might or might not abide by. The same goes for posting cash around in envelopes.
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October 13, 2014, 05:54:25 PM
 #13772

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins
Anonymizing your coins doesn't help, either you sold them or you have them.

A windfall profits tax can easily be enabled by creating a tax event. For example let's say the government decides to eventually recognize bitcoin as money and no longer property, that event could be interpreted as a tax event forcing taxes on all unrealized gains from converting "property" into money. This isn't far fetched, EVERYTHING is interpreted/justified through the tax code today.

I think it's wise to either:
1) Be like Satoshi and ensure you are 100% hidden, or
2) Be completely transparent and honest with the government in your bitcoin dealings, including public posts, because it all will be used against you. I am following 2. It's a free bitcoin world so feel free to do what makes sense for you.
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October 13, 2014, 05:56:31 PM
 #13773

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

The same way they tax the cash market. Lots of small businesses run on mainly untraceable cash, yet they still pay their taxes. Fear of penalties, jailtime, etc.

Buy & Hold
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October 13, 2014, 05:58:23 PM
 #13774

If it grows large, the early adopters (with any money left) will be the governments.

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October 13, 2014, 06:02:08 PM
 #13775


Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.



you also need to be careful in posting ridiculous amounts of bitcoin attributable to certain individuals.
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October 13, 2014, 06:16:53 PM
 #13776


Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.


you also need to be careful in posting ridiculous amounts of bitcoin attributable to certain individuals.

My hypothetical example above was just that, a hypothetical example to outline how a future argument might be drawn in the public sphere. Not sure where there is a reaction there. I was replying to you in discussion and so used you as an example, that is common, there is nothing attributing there.

All I am trying to point out is that if the thesis of this thread come true, then the reality of the situation is developed world governments will be bankrupt with limited tax options and huge unfunded liabilities/promises to voters. The pressure to find funding mechanisms for past unfunded promises will be thundering.

It is important to anticipate this possibility if you are predicting bitcoin as future global money as a possibility.
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October 13, 2014, 06:21:48 PM
 #13777

All I am trying to point out is that if the thesis of this thread come true, then the reality of the situation is developed world governments will be bankrupt with limited tax options and huge unfunded liabilities/promises to voters. The pressure to find funding mechanisms for past unfunded promises will be thundering.
The reality of the situation for developed world governments will be the same with or without Bitcoin.
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October 13, 2014, 06:47:47 PM
 #13778

who says i have any bitcoin?  i just believe in the cause of fair money.

Be careful with this, remember the Feds took down the mob by proving tax evasion, not actual crimes.

If the US government (with all of the data collected by NSA, etc) is able to prove that at one point you acquired a certain number of coins then it is easy for them to force to you admit to one of the following, either:
1) You sold the coins, in which case you better have reported that past sale to the IRS and paid taxes, or
2) You still control the coins

or

3) They got stolen...

* runs filing police report *

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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October 13, 2014, 06:48:21 PM
 #13779

If Bitcoin grows large, exactly how will governments tax the 'windfall'?

I'm guessing they could only enforce anything at the fiat interface (bank account level).

Taxing users for bitcoin to physical goods transactions could only be a written law that users might or might not abide by. The same goes for posting cash around in envelopes.

If Bitcoin becomes massive, I do not think the government can tax as efficient as they do now. The apparatus would shrink drastic due to lack of income. How will they tie millions of people to (by then) zillion Bitcoin addresses? It's a losing proposition, and the government would know and switch to proven tax strategies from way back + property taxes. If too suppressive, a massive black market would exist with Dark Coin/Monero (XMR) type of currencies.

If you think cryptos will be really big, it's time to move to a jurisdiction that does not tax capital gains of individuals.

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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October 13, 2014, 06:50:58 PM
 #13780


If you think cryptos will be really big, it's time to move to a jurisdiction that does not tax capital gains of individuals.

this.

if these scenario unfold I'm pulling a Erik Vorhees and expatriating myself some place me and my BTC will be left alone.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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