Bitcoin Forum
November 24, 2017, 01:06:14 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 1211 1212 1213 1214 1215 1216 1217 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 [1226] 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 ... 1558 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013418 times)
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 01:08:15 AM
 #24501

Monero has lost ~90% of it's value vs. BTC since last September

Uh, no. You are misreading something.

My bad, I was looking at the market cap valuation which is off that much. The BTC price is only down ~75% from last Sept. Still not exactly great price performance....

You can't really blame XMR (which is priced against BTC, and more fundamentally trades relative to the greater crypto ecosystem) for BTC being down 75%. XMR is down relative to BTC over that time period (but up >100% since December, so why cherry pick starting points here?) but not anywhere near 90%.

Quote
I disagree here, there are multiple proposals on how to layer privacy oriented transactions on top of bitcoin. Some rely on shared secrets, some enable wallets to communicate and build distributed trustless mixing mechanisms (which is exactly what Monero says it does).

You are incorrect. That isn't exactly what Monero does. Monero doesn't do "distributed" mixing, it does counterparty-less mixing. Which means nothing distributed between any parties (or using any kind coordinating "node") and no shared secrets. There is no other proposed solution to do that. It can't be done in wallets.
1511485574
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511485574

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511485574
Reply with quote  #2

1511485574
Report to moderator
1511485574
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511485574

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511485574
Reply with quote  #2

1511485574
Report to moderator
Join ICO Now A blockchain platform for effective freelancing
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
justusranvier
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1400



View Profile WWW
May 20, 2015, 01:10:27 AM
 #24502

I am not surprised to hear about the bold part, but question whether or not this is legal on an employer's part. Employers can (and should) censor employee communication regarding their specific industry (customers, competitors, etc). But they can not censor employee's speech in general. Obviously there are gray areas on where you draw the line and my understanding is from a legal sense the line fairly well defined to a specific & narrow set of firms that an employer interacts with or competes with. Having an investor with an unrelated investment does not qualify.

A bitcoin company does not work with or compete with an altcoin company, they are in separate areas. I would not be happy with an employer who censored me here, and think I would have legal standing to push back on that.
I'm not going to name the specific companies involved due to the risk of retaliation against the employees involved, but it might be worth asking the CEOs of established, respected Bitcoin companies about their policies regarding the right of their employees to express their own personal views in public.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 01:11:32 AM
 #24503

His question was not asking about energy efficiency, but rather what is the holistic point of it all. And he is correct that the energy efficiency is scam. The real goal is enslavement of the developing world by loaning a smartphone in exchange for unnoticed electricity usage.

His question was exactly efficiency. I answered both with respect to energy efficiency (much better than the best ASICs as currently deployed, given effectively free electricity) and overall efficiency (likely also, since the chips will likely be very cheap). If I recall correctly I also said I didn't think it was a particularly good idea, regardless of efficiency.

He didn't ask about Larry Summers, etc. That's fair game for you be interested in talking about, but not what he asked.

Is it possible for a toaster/phone + mining chip to be as/more efficient than the best ASIC's on the market, and if it is not, how can this be a cost-efficient way to mine?
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 01:17:32 AM
 #24504

The network does. Difficulty goes up. Security goes up.

Security goes down! These nodes are all serving the designated pool.

We don't know that yet. They haven't disclosed how the mining is actually going to work. I'd guess you are right about it being a pool, but whether that is an increase or decrease in security overall is a matter of interpretation (including, relative to what?)

Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1064



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 02:07:08 AM
 #24505

There is nowhere else for the heat to go.

Aren't you forgetting that the efficiency of a thermodynamic process is proportional the ratio of the differences in temperature and the ambient.

For someone who trumpets regularly about his superior intelligence and his breaking insights into fields from physics to economics, you sure get a lot of the basics wrong.  If a mining device uses X joules of electrical energy to perform Y hashes, those X joules get converted into an equal amount of heat.  This is basic conservation of energy.  

What you're confusing this with is the Carnot efficiency of a heat engine working between a hot and cold reservoir to perform useful work.  Interestingly, a heat engine run in reverse becomes a "heat pump" and can be used to convert work into a greater amount of heat at the hot reservoir side; it's actually possible to get 2, 3 or more Joules of heat output for every Joule of mechanical or electrical energy put into the heat pump (because this extra heat gets "pumped" from the cold reservoir)!  

1For the pedantic, minus a negligible amount lost as EM radiation, etc.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 02:15:31 AM
 #24506

the 21 mining chip rollout is mostly about smartphones.

this is a well documented fast, growing mkt that is leapfrogging laptops/desktops in developing nations like Africa.  there are literally billions of new customers on the line and they also happen to be unbanked.  this is a way to subsidize getting phones into their hands.  the other problem has been getting ppl in developed nations to use their credit cards with their phones.  the UI's have been clunky (ever tried buying anything from a website from your phone?) and no one quite trusts doing it.  Apple Pay has been failing miserably basically b/c the bank verification process has been defrauded with stolen cc info and there is no good way to marry the two technologies with all the ongoing hacks.  there is no safe way for the traditional fiat system to secure smartphone payments.  until now with 21.  

the mining chip appears to be quite efficient and will most likely include a private/public keypair to and from which BTC can be sent.  this will act like a secure element hardware device where the keys can't be hacked.  much like a Trezor or what LedgerWallet is trying to build into the sandboxed security elements or trusted space.  this will enable not only the micropayments from the mined BTC but a fully functional and safe wallet on the phone which should enable widespread ordinary commerce in these developing nations.  you know this is why Qualcomm is involved.  the smartphone makers will love it b/c this is a way to get new users of their phones in exchange for their paying electricity to charge their phones and mine.  battery life is likely not to be a factor as most ppl keep their phones plugged in most of the time.  i know i do while at work all day and at night while at home or sleeping.  the phone might as well be mining during those times and generating usable BTC for later services.  plus, electricity at work is free.  as well, this is a foolproof way to authenticate the phone with their wireless network on initialization.  Cloud service costs will be easily defrayed with micropayments.  makers of the smartphones will receive BTC payments which they can either cash in immediately or hold for future appreciation.  remember, we are still dealing with a deflationary currency (fixed supply) with huge upside potential and with the smartphone makers seemingly willing to determine their own financial future with this move, this will ensure Bitcoin's future.  and with that, a tremendous increase in value of BTC going forward as we have always believed.  this is the binary future unfolding to the upside before our very eyes.  this is also about the tech industry breaking free of the reins of Wall St which i've well characterized for a couple of years now.  

the great thing that will result is the decentralization of mining across millions and more likely billions of devices round the world all at the individual level that can't possibly be shut down unless you believe in unified gvt violation of human rights.  i don't.  if you do, you'll have to explain why we still have wars, conflicts, cross border intelligence agency hackings, Stuxnet, Sony hacks, China & Russia stockpiling gold while the US is disgorging gold, Angela Merkel phone taps, as well as a myriad of other international conflicts.

Bitcoin's future is bright.

edit:  the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
worth
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 557


@PlainTech & @BitSeeds on Twitter


View Profile WWW
May 20, 2015, 02:33:17 AM
 #24507

I find the 21 Dot Co. plans to be interesting and potentially pretty exciting. Speaking of efficiency though, I can't help but wonder if this could be achieved more effectively with a different algo like Blake256 which, to my understanding, is vastly more efficient than SHA256. 

Obviously that would require using an altcoin instead of bitcoin, and I know this tends to be a very bitcoin-only thread, so don't run me out of town on a rail as a heretic for asking.  Smiley

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 02:41:04 AM
 #24508

I find the 21 Dot Co. plans to be interesting and potentially pretty exciting. Speaking of efficiency though, I can't help but wonder if this could be achieved more effectively with a different algo like Blake256 which, to my understanding, is vastly more efficient than SHA256.  

Obviously that would require using an altcoin instead of bitcoin, and I know this tends to be a very bitcoin-only thread, so don't run me out of town on a rail as a heretic for asking.  Smiley

why would you need more efficiency when POW is designed to force real resource expenditure costs so as to prevent lazy, cheapass hacks?
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

◕_◕


View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:00:20 AM
 #24509

the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
or it may concentrate it. we shall find out.

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:11:28 AM
 #24510

the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
or it may concentrate it. we shall find out.

i don't see how taking today's mining pools and adding dozens of phone maker, router maker, and other device making mining pools with their millions of users can result in centralization.
79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

◕_◕


View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:12:15 AM
 #24511

water heater miners don't get to chose their pool, they mine for the manufacturer's.
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:15:36 AM
 #24512

battery life is likely not to be a factor as most ppl keep their phones plugged in most of the time

I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but they can be configured to mine only when plugged in, which might be 20-25% of the phones in the world, which is still an enormous number, or mine at a lower power level when on battery (cutting the mining power to 1/4 cuts the power usage to 1/16, which might be negligible)

I agree the idea of a hardware wallet combined with mining in a small device makes a lot of sense.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:20:22 AM
 #24513

water heater miners don't get to chose their pool, they mine for the manufacturer's.

that's ok.  there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that could eventually participate.

i believe, on a macro level, that these companies are driven by the same attraction we all have for Bitcoin; usage of a fixed supply, apolitical currency that should at least over the long term be stable in value.  not only that, it has the potential to increase, not decrease, in value in a pretty large way.  this innovative 21 business model facilitates the integration of Bitcoin into their business through the proper incentives.

smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:27:54 AM
 #24514

the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
or it may concentrate it. we shall find out.

i don't see how taking today's mining pools and adding dozens of phone maker, router maker, and other device making mining pools with their millions of users can result in centralization.

It isn't clear those parties will create their own mining pools. They may outsource. But we don't know at this point, everyone is guessing, including whether this who concept gets any traction at all.



79b79aa8d5047da6d3XX
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 192

◕_◕


View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:29:32 AM
 #24515

that's ok.  there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that could eventually participate.

fine, but if the proverbial "developing country" person is shopping for a water heater, she is just shopping for a water heater. not for the best combo heater/miner that heats water just right and contributes to the decentralization of the bitcoin network.

but yes, just speculating anyway. special thanks to smooth, your recent posts have been very stimulating.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:33:16 AM
 #24516

the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
or it may concentrate it. we shall find out.

i don't see how taking today's mining pools and adding dozens of phone maker, router maker, and other device making mining pools with their millions of users can result in centralization.

It isn't clear those parties will create their own mining pools. They may outsource. But we don't know at this point, everyone is guessing, including whether this who concept gets any traction at all.





if they're going to essentially give the devices away for free, yes, those users will have to mine back at the company pool to pay the device off.

also, i don't think these companies would have invested in 21 w/o some larger plans:

“We think 21’s technology has the potential to span across a wide variety of industries and look forward to working with Balaji and the team.”
— Nagraj Kashyap, Senior Vice President, Qualcomm Ventures
“Bitcoin could be the internet’s next great protocol. With the blockchain’s distributed ledger and micro-transaction capabilities, it has the potential to become an enabling technology that expands well beyond digital payments. We’re delighted to be an investor in 21 and to work closely with Balaji and Ben.”
— Padmasree Warrior, Chief Technology & Strategy Officer, Cisco
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:36:21 AM
 #24517

the device makers will have the incentive to form their own mining pools to collect BTC which i am sure they'll do.  this will further decentralize mining.
or it may concentrate it. we shall find out.

i don't see how taking today's mining pools and adding dozens of phone maker, router maker, and other device making mining pools with their millions of users can result in centralization.

It isn't clear those parties will create their own mining pools. They may outsource. But we don't know at this point, everyone is guessing, including whether this who concept gets any traction at all.





if they're going to essentially give the devices away for free, yes, those users will have to mine back at the company pool to pay the device off.

I mean the manufacturers may outsource to new or existing large pools (which will then pay the Bitcoins or fiat to the manufacturer), instead of each creating their own. Its fairly normal for companies to leave that sort of thing to a specialist and not try to do it themselves. I'd guess some will, some won't.

Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:36:26 AM
 #24518

I find the 21 Dot Co. plans to be interesting and potentially pretty exciting. Speak-of efficiency though, I can't help but wonder if this could be achieved more effectively with a different algo like Blake256 which, to my understanding, is vastly more efficient than SHA256.  

Obviously that would require using an altcoin instead of bitcoin, and I know this tends to be a very bitcoin-only thread, so don't run me out of town on a rail as a heretic for asking.  Smiley

Efficiency isn't important, it's only important to individuals relative to your competition. Efficiency determines the total hash rate. The amount of energy consumed in PoW is determined by the price of bitcoin. We are in a price zone determined by the physical limitations of available energy space etc. Once we have halved we enter a new zone.

21 are positioning themselves to take advantage of a price spike like the run-up to $1200 when mining with a shitty GPU was more profitable than at any time prior, even more profitable after the more efficient ASICs for a short time. The price dip now has made bitcoin more efficient, not the advancement in tech. That's just given an opportunity to the innovators.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:36:37 AM
 #24519

that's ok.  there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that could eventually participate.

fine, but if the proverbial "developing country" person is shopping for a water heater, she is just shopping for a water heater. not for the best combo heater/miner that heats water just right and contributes to the decentralization of the bitcoin network.

but yes, just speculating anyway. special thanks to smooth, your recent posts have been very stimulating.

true, this won't be for everyone.

but i think these companies could be building their own virtuous cycles on top of Bitcoin which could cause the next bull run in price.  if so, how would that affect the developing country person's decision making?  pay full price for an ordinary water heater, or almost free for one with a Bitcoin miner built in?
Adrian-x
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372



View Profile
May 20, 2015, 03:51:54 AM
 #24520

that's ok.  there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that could eventually participate.

fine, but if the proverbial "developing country" person is shopping for a water heater, she is just shopping for a water heater. not for the best combo heater/miner that heats water just right and contributes to the decentralization of the bitcoin network.

but yes, just speculating anyway. special thanks to smooth, your recent posts have been very stimulating.

true, this won't be for everyone.

but i think these companies could be building their own virtuous cycles on top of Bitcoin which could cause the next bull run in price.  if so, how would that affect the developing country person's decision making?  pay full price for an ordinary water heater, or almost free for one with a Bitcoin miner built in?

Having thought through the business opportunity, you would give free installation, and subsidize their electricity, if you really wanted to disrupt and make bitcoin boom, you would pick places where there is big government subsidizing of electricity. (Thinking Argentina or Venezuela,) and in effect you would export the subsidized electricity and sell some bitcoin into that market to pay for the electricity, it's a win win or all. :-)

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Pages: « 1 ... 1176 1177 1178 1179 1180 1181 1182 1183 1184 1185 1186 1187 1188 1189 1190 1191 1192 1193 1194 1195 1196 1197 1198 1199 1200 1201 1202 1203 1204 1205 1206 1207 1208 1209 1210 1211 1212 1213 1214 1215 1216 1217 1218 1219 1220 1221 1222 1223 1224 1225 [1226] 1227 1228 1229 1230 1231 1232 1233 1234 1235 1236 1237 1238 1239 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1246 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1252 1253 1254 1255 1256 1257 1258 1259 1260 1261 1262 1263 1264 1265 1266 1267 1268 1269 1270 1271 1272 1273 1274 1275 1276 ... 1558 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!