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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1957688 times)
brg444
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August 17, 2015, 07:55:42 AM
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iwilcox 9 points
If people decide to take their toys and go home because they didn't get their way...

Mike didn't get his way on various PRs. Some wish he had gone home, but instead he decided to wait for a divisive debate he could take advantage of to attempt a coup.

You're part of a group on a plane which is being remodelled mid-flight, with Mike, and out of concern for all on board you refuse him several changes with ill-considered side-effects. He gets up, declares himself pilot and starts swinging a sledgehammer about, crying "Growth at any cost! We're redirecting towards PayPal HQ." Who'd stay on that plane, with the sledgehammer-swinger as the new pilot?

such reason

very truth

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 07:57:54 AM
 #30902

..and all pro XT and angry censorship postings are removed from the front of /r/bitcoin. Disgraceful.

Indeed. They will be making "A List' next....

I was told that "book burnings" would be next.   Huh

Can you please get your Theymos Is Literally Hitler narrative sorted out?  It's getting confusing.

And why are you still here in the land of oppression, instead of running free and wild at https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt ?


And why are you still here, in cypher's world of free speech, instead of running with your soulmates, the supressors and illiberals?

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August 17, 2015, 07:59:31 AM
 #30903

point is this forum and r/bitcoin are called after bitcoin. not bitcoinxt.
hence i suggest people stfu with this pathetic whining and altcoin shilling.
brg444
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August 17, 2015, 08:04:51 AM
 #30904

..and all pro XT and angry censorship postings are removed from the front of /r/bitcoin. Disgraceful.

Indeed. They will be making "A List' next....

I was told that "book burnings" would be next.   Huh

Can you please get your Theymos Is Literally Hitler narrative sorted out?  It's getting confusing.

And why are you still here in the land of oppression, instead of running free and wild at https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt ?


And why are you still here, in cypher's world of free speech, instead of running with your soulmates, the supressors and illiberals?

I guess we'll stay here as long as the thread title is not Gold collapsing, Bitcoin-XT UP collapsing  Wink

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 08:05:42 AM
 #30905

I guess your prefer a r/Bitcoin frontpage full of "WHERE IS MY BLOCKSIZE INCREASE? I WANT IT NOW. STOP CENSORSHIP"

That's what it's looked like all summer.   Grin

Time to swing the mighty banhammer and clean house.

The sooner the Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk themselves the better.


And why are you still here, in cypher's world of free speech, instead of running with your soulmates, the supressors and illiberals?

This is theymos's world of free speech.  Like us, Frap.doc is a guest here, even though he usually acts like he owns the place and gets to decide what's on the stereo, what we're eating for supper, and what color to paint the garage.

You'd think someone as old and with as many BTC as him would be a Donator, but no...   Undecided

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 17, 2015, 08:09:06 AM
 #30906

point is this forum and r/bitcoin are called after bitcoin. not bitcoinxt.
hence i suggest people stfu with this pathetic whining and altcoin shilling.

So it's settled then. We kneel at the feet of your overwhelming insight.
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August 17, 2015, 08:13:48 AM
 #30907

point is this forum and r/bitcoin are called after bitcoin. not bitcoinxt.
hence i suggest people stfu with this pathetic whining and altcoin shilling.

So it's settled then. We kneel at the feet of your overwhelming insight.

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August 17, 2015, 08:20:46 AM
 #30908

point is this forum and r/bitcoin are called after bitcoin. not bitcoinxt.
hence i suggest people stfu with this pathetic whining and altcoin shilling.

So it's settled then. We kneel at the feet of your overwhelming insight.

You will kneel before Satoshi's economic majority, or you will kneel before Hearn's "final call."



I prefer to serve Master Satoshi, but wish you good luck over at https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 17, 2015, 08:23:27 AM
 #30909

average blocksize less than 400mb now. Roll Eyes

https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size
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August 17, 2015, 08:26:53 AM
 #30910

Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".

You are also welcome to fuck to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt, where your XT junta will not be "suppressed" by moderators enforcing rules.

Why are you supporting theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism" and "censorship" by gracing his forum with your presence?

What are you so afraid of, that you agree with all this censorship ?

There is no censorship here or on the subreddit.

If you disagree, prove it by defecting from Core's flagship forums to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt.

Vote with your feet.  Knock us out with the alleged Gavincoin consensus of your supposed XT socioeconomic majority.

On Passing-by ...

 O iCEman, here is the great thread: here hast thou nothing to seek and everything to lose.

Why wouldst thou wade through this mire? Have pity upon thy foot! Spit rather on the gate of this thread, and — turn back!

http://4umi.com/nietzsche/zarathustra/51

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August 17, 2015, 09:17:26 AM
 #30911

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Hi all,

I previously mentioned in a post that i believe that technically nodes are capable of handling blocks an order of magnitude larger than the current blocksize limit, the only missing thing was an incentive to run them. I have been monitoring the blockchain for the past couple of weeks and am seeing that even miners who have all the incentives are for whatever reason struggling to download and validate much smaller blocks.
The data actually paints a very grim picture of the current bandwidth/validating capacity of the global mining network.
See the following empty blocks mined despite a non-trivial elapsed time from the previous block just from the past couple of days alone (Data from insight.bitpay.com):

EmptyBlock /Time since previous block/ Size of previous block(bytes)/Mined by====================================================370165  29s  720784  Antpool370160  31s  50129    BTCChinaPool370076  49s  469988  F2Pool370059  34s  110994  Antpool370057  73s  131603  Antpool
We have preceding blocks as small as 50KB with 30s passing and the miner continues to mine empty blocks via SPV mining.
The most glaring case is Block 370057 where despite 73s elapsing and the preceding block being a mere 131KB, the miner is unable to download/validate fast enough to include transactions in his block. Unless ofcourse the miner is mining empty blocks on purpose, which does not make sense as all of these pools do mine blocks with transactions when the elapsed time is greater.

This is a cause for great concern, because if miners are SPV mining for a whole minute for <750KB blocks, at 8MB blocks, the network will just fall apart as a significant portion of the hashing power SPV mines throughout.
All a single malicious miner has to do is mine an invalid block on purpose, let these pools SPV mine on top of them while it mines a valid block free of their competition. Yes, these pools deserve to lose money in that event, but the impact of reorgs and many block orphans for anyone not running a full node could be disastrous, especially more so in the XT world where Mike wants everyone to be running SPV nodes. I simply don't see the XT fork having any chance of surviving if SPV nodes are unreliable.

And if these pools go out of business, it will lead to even more mining centralization which is already too centralized today.
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010283.html

Comedy fest continues  Cheesy

How long until the XT hype dies off?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 09:37:03 AM
 #30912

The 1MB'ers are happy watching that adoption isn't growing anymore. Stupidity at its best.

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August 17, 2015, 09:39:16 AM
 #30913

The 1MB'ers are happy watching that adoption isn't growing anymore. Stupidity at its best.

Stupidity is pretending that "adoption" and "growth" is all about users & transactions.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 10:19:53 AM
 #30914

Quote
The data actually paints a very grim picture of the current bandwidth/validating capacity of the global mining network.

We have preceding blocks as small as 50KB with 30s passing and the miner continues to mine empty blocks via SPV mining.
The most glaring case is Block 370057 where despite 73s elapsing and the preceding block being a mere 131KB, the miner is unable to download/validate fast enough to include transactions in his block.

This is a cause for great concern, because if miners are SPV mining for a whole minute for <750KB blocks, at 8MB blocks, the network will just fall apart as a significant portion of the hashing power SPV mines throughout.


Yes, these pools deserve to lose money but the impact of reorgs and many block orphans for anyone not running a full node could be disastrous, especially more so in the XT world where Mike wants everyone to be running SPV nodes. I simply don't see the XT fork having any chance of surviving if SPV nodes are unreliable.
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010283.html

Comedy fest continues  Cheesy

How long until the XT hype dies off?

More comedy?  Popcorn supplies...running dangerously low...  This season of All My Bitcoins is hotting up nicely!  A surprise Satoshi cameo?  Or was it!?  Are the rumors of an All My Blockchains spin-off true?!

The XT hype died as soon as thermos logged into his subreddit and killed it.  Ye Olde Banhammer made short work of the Gavinista Liberation Front.  Well to be fair, Szaboshi did put a full clip of high caliber tweets into it earlier in the day.  But it was still twitching and making annoying moaning/gurgling/bitching noises.  Then the emergence of weaponized version stamps in NotBitcoinXT and PseudoNode made any further discussion pointless guesswork.   Grin


"the impact of reorgs and many block orphans for anyone not running a full node could be disastrous"

"Really using Bitcoin" means doing the full Mulder & Scully: Trust No One.

How many times do we have to say it?

IF YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A FULL NODE, YOU ARE NOT REALLY USING BITCOIN.


smooth keeps hyping SPV, and he's right that most people will use it.  But that does not imply it is not critically important to preserve for most people the option to access/verify/amplify the Blockchain in a trustless, self-sufficient manner.  The network depends on a high enough percentage of 'most people' being able to maintain contributing nodes.

In an emergency (Bitcoin banned by international treaty) or catastrophe (cyberwar goes kinetic; datacenters gone), Bitcoin might become more important than ever, and needs to be small enough to thrive in hosts-of-last-resort like the rural towns of Côte d'Ivoire

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 17, 2015, 11:33:13 AM
 #30915

Simple function, 1000 words.

The function is simple.  Observing the actual XT adoption curve, though the fog of war and despite weaponized version stamps, is another matter entirely.

I'm not surprised you'd rather gloat about the funny picture than address what happens when XT is led down our garden path, into premature aggression and subsequent disaster.   Grin



There is no fog, just your own cataracts obscuring your vision.

And yes, that was very funny. I'm surprised you didn't quote it.

 

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
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August 17, 2015, 12:10:01 PM
 #30916

I guess your prefer a r/Bitcoin frontpage full of "WHERE IS MY BLOCKSIZE INCREASE? I WANT IT NOW. STOP CENSORSHIP"

That's what it's looked like all summer.   Grin

Time to swing the mighty banhammer and clean house.

The sooner the Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk themselves the better.


And why are you still here, in cypher's world of free speech, instead of running with your soulmates, the supressors and illiberals?

This is theymos's world of free speech.  Like us, Frap.doc is a guest here, even though he usually acts like he owns the place and gets to decide what's on the stereo, what we're eating for supper, and what color to paint the garage.

You'd think someone as old and with as many BTC as him would be a Donator, but no...   Undecided

It looks to me, that the bigger blocksize group tries to find a consensus in an open debate, while the 1MB group is absolutely fine with censorship and dividing(splitting) the community in 2 camps.
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August 17, 2015, 12:15:32 PM
 #30917

F YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A FULL NODE, YOU ARE NOT REALLY USING BITCOIN

You are by Satoshi's definition. The phrase "a user" in a whitepaper about Bitcoin describes someone using Bitcoin.

The way to address concerns about the weaker security of SPV is to deliver something better, and people will switch to it. That or get serious about mining centralization, or both.


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August 17, 2015, 12:18:57 PM
 #30918


that was very funny. I'm surprised you didn't quote it.
 

It's been a long, popcorn-and-comedy-filled day.   Cheesy

And I'm still looking forward to even more lulz in the responses to Luv Khemani's [bitcoin-dev] "Miners are struggling with blocks far smaller than 750KB blocks and resorting to SPV mining" post!  Uh-oh, it looks like the good ship Gavincoin is on a collision course with wackiness!   Tongue

Although flattering, that other thing wasn't even in the top 10 of the funniest stuff I saw in the Great Gavinista Massacre's preamble, execution, and aftermath.

On a lulzy buttrage scale of 1 to 10, it rates about 1.5 Frap.docs.


It looks to me, that the bigger blocksize group tries to find a consensus in an open debate, while the 1MB group is absolutely fine with censorship and dividing(splitting) the community in 2 camps.

Moderation is not censorship.  Your social engineering attack has failed.

The sooner you Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk yourselves the better.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 17, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
 #30919

I don't know if you guys been on reddit today but it's amazing the level of sensible and reasonable discussion that can be had when we cut out the "censorship" and "xtears" crap.

If I'd care enough to use changtip I'd buy theymos a beer right about now.

I see now you aren't Napoleon at all, that's ice. You are Winston.

I wonder at what point will you start to question your role at Minitrue?

If thermos's forum and sub are such Orwellian epitomes of authoritarianism, why do you visit and legitimize them by participating?

Perhaps https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt is more to your liking and more in keeping with your stated (but not yet demonstrated) noble ideals?

Go on, scramble your password and show us what first-mover defection from Bitcoin Core's socioeconomic majority actually looks like.

Running an XT node doesn't count anymore, ever since NotBitcoinXT + PseudoNode became a thing...   Cheesy

Whats more outlandish MP getting everyone to run BitcoinMP or you getting everyone to run NotXT?

Tough call. The motivation for either as almost as tenuous as your command on reality.

Full Node: http://46.51.193.129 (BU) || http://haschinabannedbitcoin.com
"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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August 17, 2015, 12:31:09 PM
 #30920


that was very funny. I'm surprised you didn't quote it.
 

It's been a long, popcorn-and-comedy-filled day.   Cheesy

And I'm still looking forward to even more lulz in the responses to Luv Khemani's [bitcoin-dev] "Miners are struggling with blocks far smaller than 750KB blocks and resorting to SPV mining" post!  Uh-oh, it looks like the good ship Gavincoin is on a collision course with wackiness!   Tongue

Although flattering, that other thing wasn't even in the top 10 of the funniest stuff I saw in the Great Gavinista Massacre's preamble, execution, and aftermath.

On a lulzy buttrage scale of 1 to 10, it rates about 1.5 Frap.docs.


It looks to me, that the bigger blocksize group tries to find a consensus in an open debate, while the 1MB group is absolutely fine with censorship and dividing(splitting) the community in 2 camps.

Moderation is not censorship.  Your social engineering attack has failed.

The sooner you Gavinistas are herded into /v/bitcoinxt to circlejerk yourselves the better.

Still here instead of fighting together with your totalitarian idols?

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