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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808479 times)
klee
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August 16, 2015, 07:52:29 AM
 #30701

What's up bagholders?

BTC: 1K9atu5zgz7izCMAynk5adBJ8Qn2YgS6nT
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August 16, 2015, 08:15:14 AM
 #30702

more censorship on reddit: https://de.reddit.com/r/bitcoin/comments/3h5211

[–]evoorhees 259 Punkte 8 Stunden zuvor
I posted this about 10 min ago and my thread was deleted immediately:
Title: XT is not only On Topic, it is THE most important topic right now. Stop the censorship. (self.Bitcoin) submitted 12 minutes ago by evoorhees
Text: The discussion of XT and the fork is the most important topic in Bitcoin right now. Please stop censoring it. Regardless of one's opinion on block sizes, the debate must happen. Whichever mod/s is censoring needs to stop.

If you are adamant about XT not being an off-topic altcoin, and equally convinced r/bitcoin moderation is the same thing as censorship, this is the place for you:



Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

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Zarathustra
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August 16, 2015, 08:36:09 AM
 #30703

By the way, the point in time where a gold backed money becomes a fiat money, is when there is just a tad more paper than gold in the system than the people are comfortable with, and a run starts. The state proclaims that the been (ref example) is just as good as gold, and apply a law to support that illusion. The law is the fiat point.


We don't have fiat money. Money is backed by deposits and securities. You will not get a credit (which is money) without that.

We do have fiat money, but the extent of debt is so large that it seems that debt is the basis. It is not, it is the fiat paper, plus the electronic only fiat created in QE. Unredeemable and unbacked. The debt extends the quantum of money while it exist, and contracts the money when it is extingushed by being paid back or written off. So debt is also money, I agree with that, but it is not the base, it is an extension of the base quantum.


Fiat means 'out of nothing'. Money IS debt, and nothing different. It is not paper, and the debt is backed by deposits and securities. A bank creates money, as soon as you take a credit (backed by your deposit).

No, fiat means that the money manager states, through a law, that the paper money backed by gold, is just as good as gold, and it comes when the backing and therefore the redeemability is questioned by the market.

Anyway, my post here was to illustrate that bitcoins must be held directly with the public to the largest extent technically possible, to avoid that surrogates appear, and also galloping debt.

EDIT: (The real meaning of fiat after a while becomes nonsensical, when a gold mark is worth a million paper marks, no one believes in it, and they just forget that at some point, a paper mark was in fact worth a gold mark. So when the redeemability is removed, fiat is "out of nothing" as you say. But gold and bitcoin is also out of nothing. They are sound because there is no money manager).


Zimbabwe and Weimar printed paper out of nothing. This is overwhelmingly not the case in a property backed money environment. You have to deliver capital to the bank to get credit (money). That's the way how money is created and backed in a capitalist environment. Money (credit) was never fully linked with metal. Everything started with the first debt, which was the debt to the state/warlords, the tribute: grain, or metal for the Organized Violence to organize violence. There is no economy beyond an environment of organized violence. Beyond that environment is self-sufficiency. Anarcho capitalists dont understand that. Anarcho capitalism is an oxy moron.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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August 16, 2015, 08:42:12 AM
 #30704

By the way, the point in time where a gold backed money becomes a fiat money, is when there is just a tad more paper than gold in the system than the people are comfortable with, and a run starts. The state proclaims that the been (ref example) is just as good as gold, and apply a law to support that illusion. The law is the fiat point.


We don't have fiat money. Money is backed by deposits and securities. You will not get a credit (which is money) without that.

We do have fiat money, but the extent of debt is so large that it seems that debt is the basis. It is not, it is the fiat paper, plus the electronic only fiat created in QE. Unredeemable and unbacked. The debt extends the quantum of money while it exist, and contracts the money when it is extingushed by being paid back or written off. So debt is also money, I agree with that, but it is not the base, it is an extension of the base quantum.


Fiat means 'out of nothing'. Money IS debt, and nothing different. It is not paper, and the debt is backed by deposits and securities. A bank creates money, as soon as you take a credit (backed by your deposit).

No, fiat means that the money manager states, through a law, that the paper money backed by gold, is just as good as gold, and it comes when the backing and therefore the redeemability is questioned by the market.

Anyway, my post here was to illustrate that bitcoins must be held directly with the public to the largest extent technically possible, to avoid that surrogates appear, and also galloping debt.

EDIT: (The real meaning of fiat after a while becomes nonsensical, when a gold mark is worth a million paper marks, no one believes in it, and they just forget that at some point, a paper mark was in fact worth a gold mark. So when the redeemability is removed, fiat is "out of nothing" as you say. But gold and bitcoin is also out of nothing. They are sound because there is no money manager).


Zimbabwe and Weimar printed paper out of nothing. This is overwhelmingly not the case in a property backed money environment. You have to deliver capital to the bank to get credit (money). That's the way how money is created and backed in a capitalist environment. Money was never fully linked with metal. Everything started with the first debt, which was the debt to the state/warlords, the tribute: grain, or metal for the Organized Violence to organize violence. There is no economy beyond an environment of organized violence. Beyond that environment is self-sufficiency.

You are utterly confused - or willfully destroying the discussion for lols or whatever - or an automaton - or you sell that ...5000... book.
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August 16, 2015, 08:49:03 AM
 #30705

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

Yes, the populism of the 1MBers has no power, neither in the threads of the elite nor anywhere else. That's why the limit will be raised within the next 12 month.

The "populism of the 1MBers" is not your concern.

Your concern is the multi-year duration and multi-billion-dollar magnitude of Bitcoin's current economic majority.

Are you going to be the first brave fellow to defect from that imposing majority by accepting Gavin-tainted XTcoins?  No?  Then you are just a poser.

In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

Are you still sure you want to risk your tiny stash playing Hard Fork Poker with such ultra-high-rollers?

Before you answer, please take into account that nodes by default prioritize tx moving older coins, and the Royalty of La Serenissima possesses, in great quantities, very old coins.

What will you do when the limit isn't raised within the next 12 months?  Continue to cry wolf?  Self harm? Or admit being wrong?   Wink

You know iCE, I also am concerned by the idea of a hostile fork, but reading your propaganda it just dawned on me that the only hostilities are coming from people like you. Everyone of any worth agrees we need to increase the block size, it's just there is a hostile minority who feel they are in power who are wanting to pick a fight.

Accommodating bigger blocks over a 12 month period given Bitcoin's exponential growth is not a hostile act, it's not rushing in a controversial change, it's a practical prudent approach.

You are part of the minority who are making it controversial and calling it hostile. I just don't see why you're opposed to letting Bitcoin grow free of manipulation and control.

Because "Monero doesn't suffer from the 1MB block limits."

https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/why-monero-matters

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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August 16, 2015, 09:13:25 AM
 #30706

XT is currently only a voting mechanism, like a poll here. Maybe in half a year we will see the first bigblock, maybe in a year. Gavin has been extra patient.
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August 16, 2015, 09:14:55 AM
 #30707

XT is currently only a voting mechanism, like a poll here. Maybe in half a year we will see the first bigblock, maybe in a year. Gavin has been extra patient.

another spam attack couldn't get the first big block ?

or is there a time constraint on when the first > 1 MB block can be created?

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August 16, 2015, 09:17:57 AM
 #30708

I think it is not correct because gold is always best investment and it will always grow for longer time. So it is not a good way to compare gold and bitcoin.

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August 16, 2015, 09:25:34 AM
 #30709

I think it is not correct because gold is always best investment and it will always grow for longer time. So it is not a good way to compare gold and bitcoin.

OH RLY?

Does gold only go up in price?

Answer: NO

Therefore: Gold is not always best investment

Every commodity traded has its price go up and down making it just an investment not "always the best investment"

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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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August 16, 2015, 09:26:45 AM
 #30710

I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guy is that if the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knew that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics show that the outcomes of democratic process don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.
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August 16, 2015, 09:29:29 AM
 #30711

I'm not against bigger blocks. I am, however, vehemently against some minority coercing rather than appealing on merit a change that affects every member of a system for some collectivist notion of "the common good" without everyone's voluntary consent. Great, bigger blocks can fit more transactions, but maybe we should wait until there is full consensus that fees are indeed too high and we all agree to move together to using bigger blocks. Til then...Perhaps we can even work out a dynamic block size schedule based on rigorously proven and acceptedly fair feedback cycles by then and not have to go through the whole process again.

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

But people won't because there is greater risk cost to switch than to stay until some situation demands full consensus migration. Antifragility.

Activating a hardfork based on what miners do is really bad. You could easily have a situation where 75% of miners support XT but none of the big Bitcoin exchanges or businesses do. Then miners would start mining coins that they couldn't spend anywhere useful, and SPV users would find that they can't transact with the businesses they want to deal with. The currency would be split, and in this case XT would be in a far weaker position than Bitcoin.

The possibility of this sort of network/currency split is what makes XT not a "legitimate hardfork", but rather the programmed creation of an altcoin. A consensus hardfork can only go forward once it has been determined that it's nearly impossible for the Bitcoin economy to split in any significant way. Not every Bitcoin user on Earth has to agree, but enough that there won't be a noticeable split.

Bitcoin is not ruled by miners. In a hardfork, miners barely matter at all. (Softforks are different.) What's important is what the economy does.

If the economy splits without full consensus in either direction, then this may happen:

Quote

If that happens, trouble for those on the fork and any businesses/entities that forked over without full consensus.

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August 16, 2015, 09:35:55 AM
 #30712

I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guys is that is the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knows that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics shows that democracy choices don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 16, 2015, 09:47:33 AM
 #30713

I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guy is that if the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knew that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics show that the outcomes of democratic process don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.

Just because someone makes a client (XT or original satoshi client) doesn't mean they make people choose to use that client.

If that were so then Satoshi himself had political influence thus negating your point entirely.

I don't see anything that XT is doing other than allowing people a choice to switch their client to one that supports bigger blocks (and a few other minor things).

Ultimately people choose what they want to use.

Political influence lol.

Sorry but I make my own choices by thinking with my brain, not who is in the lime light.

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                   ²²²                 
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August 16, 2015, 09:50:04 AM
 #30714

I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guy is that if the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knew that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics show that the outcomes of democratic process don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.

Just because someone makes a client (XT or original satoshi client) doesn't mean they make people choose to use that client.

If that were so then Satoshi himself had political influence thus negating your point entirely.

I don't see anything that XT is doing other than allowing people a choice to switch their client to one that supports bigger blocks (and a few other minor things).

Ultimately people choose what they want to use.

Political influence lol.

Sorry but I make my own choices by thinking with my brain, not who is in the lime light.

If people start to move over but not everyone moves over together, then you get two different blockchains.

To me, if everyone doesn't agree to move to a fork, then the proposed fork is not good enough yet.

Let It Be

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 16, 2015, 09:55:14 AM
 #30715

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

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August 16, 2015, 09:56:17 AM
 #30716

XT is currently only a voting mechanism, like a poll here. Maybe in half a year we will see the first bigblock, maybe in a year. Gavin has been extra patient.

another spam attack couldn't get the first big block ?

or is there a time constraint on when the first > 1 MB block can be created?

The first big block can only be mined in January of 2016 and after 2 weeks of >75% of xt mined blocks. At that point, we have already reached full consensus.

Currently, running a XT node is just a mechanism so rise your voice. Because we, the regular user, can't mine or sign new blocks, we can only rise our voice through our client choice.
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August 16, 2015, 09:57:47 AM
 #30717

XT is currently only a voting mechanism, like a poll here. Maybe in half a year we will see the first bigblock, maybe in a year. Gavin has been extra patient.

another spam attack couldn't get the first big block ?

or is there a time constraint on when the first > 1 MB block can be created?

The first big block can only be mined in January of 2016 and after 2 weeks of >75% of xt mined blocks. At that point, we have already reached full consensus.

I'll take that as a yes then?

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August 16, 2015, 09:58:15 AM
 #30718

Yes. Smiley
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August 16, 2015, 09:59:26 AM
 #30719

I have been thinking about the mail from the nickname Satoshi Nakamoto, whoerever it is. His argument is not about the technical side of the debate but about politics and long term future.

I think people need to talk less about the technical implications and more about the political implications of this fork.
 
The argument of this guy is that if the XT fork is sucessful, that means that in the future someone with enough political influence can make a fork successful. That means that one days the President of the United States, who definitely has enough political influence, will be able to push a succesful fork. And we all know what that would mean: no more 21 million limit. We will be back to central banking.

The argument that the community will decide what is its best interest is invalid. Aristotle already knew that democracy turn into demagogy. And history and economics show that the outcomes of democratic process don't align with the best interest of the voters.

Basically the problem is that: by forking we are choosing a democratic political process, and it's the very same process which lead to central banking and is currently unable to stop it.

Just because someone makes a client (XT or original satoshi client) doesn't mean they make people choose to use that client.

If that were so then Satoshi himself had political influence thus negating your point entirely.

I don't see anything that XT is doing other than allowing people a choice to switch their client to one that supports bigger blocks (and a few other minor things).

Ultimately people choose what they want to use.

Political influence lol.

Sorry but I make my own choices by thinking with my brain, not who is in the lime light.
It's people who have chosen central banking.

Trusting people for making good choices in monetary matters is a recipe for central banking. Populism will always win at the end of the day.
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August 16, 2015, 10:05:26 AM
 #30720

It feels to me like a major shift occurred today.  It was caused in part by Gavin and Mike completing the patch to support larger block sizes, but I think it was actually caused more so by a foolish move made on the battlefield-that-was-reddit today.  In an act of desperation, the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their swords.  

What do I mean by "throwing one's sword?"  I'll have to explain it with a story about my childhood…

...The town I grew up in (about an hour outside of Vancouver) seemed perfectly normal to me as a kid, but when I look back now, it was actually pretty rough.  It was home to hundreds of Hell's Angels and it served as a sort of distribution center in the drug trade.  

Anyways, there were lots of fights between groups of boys when I was growing up.  I was never really a part of it, but I was fascinated and paid attention to the dynamics of the process.  One strange behaviour I witnessed was that the last act of the losing faction of boys was always to throw their weapons.  It was such a stupid thing to do, because the baseball bat or hockey stick would rarely hit the intended target, and in the few times that it did, it would be travelling at such a reduced velocity that the impact imparted to the victim was superficial at best.  

And then the weaponless boys would get their butts kicked.

It turns out that this is a sort of a natural human reaction to severe stress.  As a last resort, we throw whatever we have left and hope for the best.  In the movies, it always works; in real life, the opposite is true.  

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons.  

Unbelievable. Did anyone in this environment ever destroy himself even faster than that Thermos?

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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