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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011845 times)
Adrian-x
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August 07, 2015, 07:54:15 PM
 #29941

money printing funding bailouts of debt ridden companies who've outgrown their competitiveness via cheap credit.  more debt to fix a debt problem, when possible.  if not, print.  printing to fund interest payments is what is driving the Greek problems.  preferred access to cheap credit concentrates wealth into a few hands, like we have today.  wealth concentration leads to better political access to keep it that way.  why do you think many politicians end up in corner offices at financial institutions.  it's called revolving door policy.  

Excellent point!  Who could possibly be stupid enough to confuse cheap credit driven bailouts of auto companies with real economic growth, especially when the prevention of badly needed creative destruction is actually exacerbating the TBTF zombie corporation problem?

OK so we're on the same team then?  Smiley

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Peter R
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August 07, 2015, 08:15:42 PM
 #29942


no.  i want an international digital monetary system that is apolitical and fair, controlled by no one, that is cheap, fast, easy and accessible by all ppl's of the world, that has a fixed supply so as to not be inflatable, that will replace gold, & that can take the human race into the next technological growth phase.  there's alot of great things to look forward to.  esp for our kids whom i'm esp worried for and hope to get thru the debt bubble collapse.

Ok, then please do not try to develop software. Let's leave "core devs" doing their job. Everything is going fine.  :-) Eye surgery and software development are two different things.

Do you see Bitcoin as purely a software development project?

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Adrian-x
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August 07, 2015, 08:39:46 PM
 #29943

One of the many reasons I haven't invested more time in the design is my mining equipment is still producing a profit in excess of 50% of the input costs.

Not sure I'm following you. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make sense for you to mod your gear [to be a part of your hot water heater] now, because your profits are high without doing it?
Are you planning to modify the gear eventually, once the profits drop?  If so, why not mod it now?  Unless the mod will cost you less at a later date, you're simply losing money. Especially since you claim that you've underclocked your gear to 60% due to heat issues (summer).  It either makes sense to do it right away, or it *never* makes sense.
If you're not planning to mod your gear, then my point is made.

Quote
2) the concern you point out is valid but not problematic, if the water in the tank is hot, the miner runs but is not used to heat hot water. (so your wast heat is wasted) but for the rest of the time, the cost of hot water is free, or the bitcoin are being mined for free. you can still mine with 100% efficiency 100% of the time and not mine if your efficiency drops below say 99% or whatever your threshold is.

But that adds further costs--the need for dual cooling systems & switchover valving/control circuitry.

In short, impractical.

I like your skepticism good questions they dont undermine the logic, but I'll oblige anyway.
Yes, my profits are high enough without doing it.
I'm very busy acquiring new skills on some other projects (ones that intersect with the macro economic issues where both iCE and Cypher seem to agree), so I haven't made this a priority. It makes sense to do it now for lots of reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already, so I'm sure lots of entrepreneurs are thinking about it. There will also be a significant first mover advantage should competition emerge, that would also delay the decision to proceed indefinably.

Time and energy being the two resources I lack is the main reason its being delayed. And the wife docent want to see any thing bitcoin in the house. (its not easy explaining the total time logged in on the top of this page to everyone when you not in fount of a screen 24/7.) - its been like this ever since bitcoin hit $1000 and I told her I sold around $10 and bought gold at its peek, I can thank cypher for that I'll blame him for his confrontational debating style.     

I have more than enough mining gear for the RnD process involves, I lack additional controls should I break something, a typical risk but not one I can afford given ASICminer is no more, ultimately all my gear will be converted for a proof of principal and testing however I only need so much hot water and scaling the idea needs me focus on more than just the PoP.

the "further costs" are not as prohibitive as you may think, and they are also fixed costs + R&D, and it's trivial issue in mass production. 

I'll agree it's impractical if it hasn't emerged in the next 4 years. the principal is wast = food, its true in sustainable Eco systems and it's true in sustainable economic systems.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2015, 08:52:47 PM
 #29944


no.  i want an international digital monetary system that is apolitical and fair, controlled by no one, that is cheap, fast, easy and accessible by all ppl's of the world, that has a fixed supply so as to not be inflatable, that will replace gold, & that can take the human race into the next technological growth phase.  there's alot of great things to look forward to.  esp for our kids whom i'm esp worried for and hope to get thru the debt bubble collapse.

Ok, then please do not try to develop software. Let's leave "core devs" doing their job. Everything is going fine.  :-) Eye surgery and software development are two different things.

On the face of it I'd  agree. But after spending  5y in Bitcoin interacting with devs like you I've  learned that code doesn't write itself. It starts with a bunch of you sitting around a table trying to figure out things like if 2% inflation in an altcoin would be better accepted by the average Joe than 1%, or if Snoor sigs will verify faster than ECDSA to improve waiting times in checkout lines, or the decision to implement p2sh so that multiple parties can split the responsibility of securing the money stored at one address; all those sound like technical problems but they really are ideological and economic beliefs based on assumed human behavior coded into the software. Amir Taaki is one of the only devs who flat out admits this and I am thankful for his honesty.

Even this whole block size debate is based on ideology and economic belief about how human beings will react in a given situation. It's been leaking out much more lately as the Cripplecoiners have been reaching desperately for every argument they can get their hands on. Instead of them being truly technical about their arguments, they instead throw out a bunch of armchair logic without any real data as to why Bitcoin can't scale. The reality is that all of them believe they should be able to run a full node (ideology) and they believe Bitcoin should be a settlement layer (false economics). They want the code to enforce those principles so they blockade any one who disagrees with them with technical sounding FUD. There's even financial conflict of interest entering the picture.

Code doesn't write itself.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2015, 08:59:07 PM
 #29945


no.  i want an international digital monetary system that is apolitical and fair, controlled by no one, that is cheap, fast, easy and accessible by all ppl's of the world, that has a fixed supply so as to not be inflatable, that will replace gold, & that can take the human race into the next technological growth phase.  there's alot of great things to look forward to.  esp for our kids whom i'm esp worried for and hope to get thru the debt bubble collapse.

Ok, then please do not try to develop software. Let's leave "core devs" doing their job. Everything is going fine.  :-) Eye surgery and software development are two different things.

oh, but eye surgery allows me to help ppl see the light Grin
tvbcof
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August 07, 2015, 09:01:47 PM
 #29946

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

The key is to hire a talented and proven shill.  If only there were someone like that around here...


cypherdoc
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August 07, 2015, 09:03:39 PM
 #29947

the sweet smell of deflation:

brg444
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August 07, 2015, 09:05:23 PM
 #29948

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

They're arguably one of the major players in the mining industry at the moment so you might want to check your facts...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2015, 09:08:50 PM
 #29949

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

The key is to hire a talented and proven shill.  If only there were someone like that around here...



yeah, and despite someone explaining to you what went on, you'd rather apply your own judgment biases w/o any investigation or knowledge:

brg444
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August 07, 2015, 09:26:29 PM
 #29950

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

They're arguably one of the major players in the mining industry at the moment so you might want to check your facts...

Just did a quick search, but my Google seems to be on the blink at the moment.  Mind giving me a link to their mining gear?  Pics of their chips?  Farm?  A mining address?
Thanks.


Details are scarce since they are still in stealth mode but here goes:

https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/21inc

Quote
The document suggests 21 had sought to build 20,000-server, 26-megawatt datacenters to serve as the center of a mining pool that could ensure block rewards.

As an example of the potential power of its pool, 21's mining operations generated approximately 5,700 BTC in 2013 and 69,000 BTC the following year, according to the document.

Quote
Intel factories, the documents suggested, were responsible for at least two generations of 21 bitcoin mining chips, a 0.57 w/GH 22nm FinFET chip (codenamed CyrusOne) and a 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip (codenamed Brownfield).

http://www.coindesk.com/21-inc-confirms-plans-bitcoin-distribution/

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
tvbcof
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August 07, 2015, 09:39:21 PM
 #29951

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

The key is to hire a talented and proven shill.  If only there were someone like that around here...

yeah, and despite someone explaining to you what went on, you'd rather apply your own judgment biases w/o any investigation or knowledge:

http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/pug.jpg

Well 'Speak of the Devil and he shall appear.'


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August 07, 2015, 09:39:43 PM
 #29952

The economy has been growing since 2010.
The economy has been growing since 2010.
Yes, it has been growing since 2010.

these guys used to be one of the biggest bulk carrier companies in the world.  not so much anymore:


OMG you sound like the conspiracy idiots at Zero Knowledge.  Don't you know [easy credit * car loans] = [economic growth]?

As long as credit (which is money) is growing, the economy is growing as well.
As soon as the total credit sum deflates, the economy deflates as well.
This is in short the 1x1 of capitalism, which is debitism.

Less credit (less money) = less economy
Moar credit = moar economy

Peter R
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August 07, 2015, 09:40:46 PM
 #29953


no.  i want an international digital monetary system that is apolitical and fair, controlled by no one, that is cheap, fast, easy and accessible by all ppl's of the world, that has a fixed supply so as to not be inflatable, that will replace gold, & that can take the human race into the next technological growth phase.  there's alot of great things to look forward to.  esp for our kids whom i'm esp worried for and hope to get thru the debt bubble collapse.

Ok, then please do not try to develop software. Let's leave "core devs" doing their job. Everything is going fine.  :-) Eye surgery and software development are two different things.

On the face of it I'd  agree. But after spending  5y in Bitcoin interacting with devs like you I've  learned that code doesn't write itself. It starts with a bunch of you sitting around a table trying to figure out things like if 2% inflation in an altcoin would be better accepted by the average Joe than 1%, or if Snoor sigs will verify faster than ECDSA to improve waiting times in checkout lines, or the decision to implement p2sh so that multiple parties can split the responsibility of securing the money stored at one address; all those sound like technical problems but they really are ideological and economic beliefs based on assumed human behavior coded into the software. Amir Taaki is one of the only devs who flat out admits this and I am thankful for his honesty.

Even this whole block size debate is based on ideology and economic belief about how human beings will react in a given situation. It's been leaking out much more lately as the Cripplecoiners have been reaching desperately for every argument they can get their hands on. Instead of them being truly technical about their arguments, they instead throw out a bunch of armchair logic without any real data as to why Bitcoin can't scale. The reality is that all of them believe they should be able to run a full node (ideology) and they believe Bitcoin should be a settlement layer (false economics). They want the code to enforce those principles so they blockade any one who disagrees with them with technical sounding FUD. There's even financial conflict of interest entering the picture.

Code doesn't write itself.

Since joining this community in March 2013, I've been surprised at this focus on "coders."  In my non-bitcoin work, coders implement algorithms which result from work in physics or signal processing theory; or, the coders work on user interfaces.  In other words, the coders usually implement ideas from the sciences, or work to make software more intuitive and natural for the end user.    

Bitcoin is highly interdisciplinary, sitting at a strange intersection of computer science, physics, economics and sociology.  Bitcoin's code enforces ideas that take into account important insight from all of these disciplines.  The code is just the mechanism for enforcement and the coders are the mechanics. What should be shaping the future of Bitcoin are the best ideas from computer science, physics, economics and insight into human behaviour.  

To view Bitcoin as strictly a "coding project" is myopic.  

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rocks
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August 07, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
 #29954

the sweet smell of deflation:



Don't worry, if you thought Bennie's helicopter drop was large you haven't seen anything yet. The FED will panic print to dig out of the debt depression hole they've created and the only things that will survive are real assets and real money. XOM owns real assets and will still exist on the other size of the FED's crash and still pay out cash flow from operations, in whatever unit is used as currency at the time.
cypherdoc
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August 07, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
 #29955

the sweet smell of deflation:



Don't worry, if you thought Bennie's helicopter drop was large you haven't seen anything yet. The FED will panic print to dig out of the debt depression hole they've created and the only things that will survive are real assets and real money. XOM owns real assets and will still exist on the other size of the FED's crash and still pay out cash flow from operations, in whatever unit is used as currency at the time.

can we please give Bitcoin the chance to be that unit?

edit:  not that i think it would be that unit.  surely it will just be more USD's.  but what i mean is, can we allow Bitcoin tx rate and market cap to skyrocket as a result?
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August 07, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
 #29956

well looky here.  good job Ben!:

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=51
ssmc2
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August 07, 2015, 10:23:30 PM
 #29957


California residents up next?

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/08/license-kill-innovation-why-ab-1326-californias-bitcoin-license-bad-business
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August 07, 2015, 10:32:23 PM
 #29958


just finished that one.

yeah, EFF usually has a good nose about these things.
Adrian-x
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August 07, 2015, 10:58:20 PM
 #29959

The economy has been growing since 2010.
The economy has been growing since 2010.
Yes, it has been growing since 2010.

these guys used to be one of the biggest bulk carrier companies in the world.  not so much anymore:


OMG you sound like the conspiracy idiots at Zero Knowledge.  Don't you know [easy credit * car loans] = [economic growth]?

As long as credit (which is money) is growing, the economy is growing as well.
As soon as the total credit sum deflates, the economy deflates as well.
This is in short the 1x1 of capitalism, which is debitism.

Less credit (less money) = less economy
Moar credit = moar economy

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?width=630&height=378&range=Max&id=TCMDO

and as Cypher and iCE elude too that does not benefit the 99% but just those with assess to type of capital you need to fund multinational corporations and there acquisitions so yes the system is growing, no it's not healthy.

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brg444
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August 07, 2015, 11:32:14 PM
 #29960

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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