Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 06:31:27 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 [1539] 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 1545 1546 1547 1548 1549 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 1555 1556 1557 1558 1559 1560 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806367 times)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:25:59 PM
 #30761

If XT is so great, no one should have to sell it to anyone, people will just switch.

There is avast difference to discussing XT vs "selling" XT to users.

Kind of hard to discuss it if reddit moderators keep deleting posts/threads related to XT and moving XT discussion to alt coin section of this forum.

People can only switch if there is enough discussion about XT.

They won't just wake up one day and go "i'll with go to xtnodes.com and download the latest client" without anyone previously mentioning it on a forum etc.

Ultimately users will choose what they want in the end.

All of this back and forth is drama and kiddy BS. Pick a stance and stick to it without the ad hominem or personal attacks (<----directed at those going out of their way to bash others).

You can discuss proposals to change the Bitcoin main chain, but a forked chain that is not also the main chain is an altchain and not truly Bitcoin.

[–]theymos -1 points 4 days ago
Discussion of hardforks is not silenced. That's why a possible hardfork has been discussed ad nauseam on /r/Bitcoin for the past few months. XT-specific submissions are removed because XT is not Bitcoin.
permalinksavecontextfull comments (189)reportgive gold

...yet XT is using the exact same chain/protocol as core aside from the future possibility of block size increase.

Not an alt chain in any sense as it has been used on other coins like litecoin that are completely separate chains and protocols.

XT operates just like CORE as of right now.

and preserves the past historical ledger perfectly and reissues identical coins on the XT chain.  you don't lose.
1481221887
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221887

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221887
Reply with quote  #2

1481221887
Report to moderator
1481221887
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221887

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221887
Reply with quote  #2

1481221887
Report to moderator
1481221887
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221887

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221887
Reply with quote  #2

1481221887
Report to moderator
The forum was founded in 2009 by Satoshi and Sirius. It replaced a SourceForge forum.
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481221887
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221887

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221887
Reply with quote  #2

1481221887
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:36:52 PM
 #30762

Side chains are certainly altcoins.



Yeah and they don't run on top of Bitcoin. They run parallel like any other alt coin.

Yet once again it is okay to discuss side chains on reddit? Lol

and there is every incentive by a SC founder to make it dominant over the MC.  why?  b/c it would force all current Bitcoin cold wallet holders to migrate to the new dominant innovative SC which itself has it's early adopters/designers who stand to make a fortune by flipping their founder's coin to the panicked Bitcoin migraters.

thus, every corporation/entity that consults with Blockstream to design an innovative, proprietary SC will, before they pay a dime in consulting fees, force Blockstream to sign an airtight non-compete to prevent any backporting of said innovation back to Bitcoin.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:38:43 PM
 #30763

But I don't agree that 75% of hashrate or whatever is network consensus.

I predict that miners won't (vote to) change unless there is network consensus.



one down:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3h6lk8/toomim_bros_supports_democracy_and_bitcoin_xt/
sAt0sHiFanClub
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364


Warning: Confrmed Gavinista


View Profile WWW
August 16, 2015, 04:41:36 PM
 #30764


But if the old ledger will not preserve the XT ledger perfectly, what happens if suddenly the 75% drops 25% or otherwise? Why 75%?

Its not a moving target. Its a change point. If you want to change back, for whatever reason, you start a new process to get the network to follow you.

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
vokain
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610


V.V.V.V.V.


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:43:43 PM
 #30765


But if the old ledger will not preserve the XT ledger perfectly, what happens if suddenly the 75% drops 25% or otherwise? Why 75%?

Its not a moving target. Its a change point. If you want to change back, for whatever reason, you start a new process to get the network to follow you.

I see now. Thank you. Also just read about the 1000 blocks conditional.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:49:19 PM
 #30766

I can understand that theymos is in a very difficult spot - he is probably right (in a literal, technical sense) in the assertion that XT as a theory is on topic, but as a viable, downloadable solution it becomes an alt-coin. Until it reaches consensus,

But what troubles me is the zeal with which this policy is still being executed across the platforms. At this point, who really benefits from a suppression of debate?
(bear in mind that we are free to discuss it here and many other topics)

During the fall of the Berlin wall, there was a pivotal moment when the border guards finally recognised the futility of their duty, and allowed people through unchallenged.

Way out of the mess: Core adds a largeblock patch, different from gavins but who cares. Othere XT patches are delayed to make them look important.

If not, they go the way of the Xfree86 developers - into the fog.

Next fight is over the name. I suggest renaming XT to core by april depending on 75% supermajority as expressed by just doing it. Smiley



It would have to follow a BIP. But isnt this scenario what MH and GA wanted all along?  The failure to get this resulted in XT.

Exactly. It is the way out, no fork, everybody is happy (some just a tad butthurt).




i'm not sure about that.  no one, esp me, wants to live under a Blockstream totalitarian regime that only will act when they have a gun pointed at their heads.  look at some of the kludges they've slipped into the code w/o anyone knowing according to Hearn's forking article.
Peter R
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 938



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 04:50:32 PM
 #30767

Bitcoin XT (larger blocks) just moved into 3rd place:


Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:07:31 PM
 #30768


ty for that.  oh my gaud  Wink:

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:09:54 PM
 #30769

It ignores the fact that for big blocks to be happening, there must already be 75% of hashing power signalling support for it. When that happens the first big block can be mined, before that bigger blocks are not mined.

So now you have 75% of the network working on a chain that supports bigger blocks and mining bigger blocks, whilst 25% try to mine a chain that only contains <1MB blocks.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out which chain will *very quickly* becomes longest.

you had to go and ruin it, didn't you? 
Voktar
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 55


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:10:29 PM
 #30770

Bitcoin XT (larger blocks) just moved into 3rd place:



I love this is happening right now, this is no more than a true democratic voting mechanism, lets people make their choice.

Some individuals are arguing about the power of 2 devs to fork the chain but in the end are the users and miners who cast their vote not just Gavin and Mike.

We are moving from a totalitarian regime to a democratic one.

This shows that Bitcoin is resilient to anyone that tries to cripple it, devs included.

One thing should be for granted, that Bitcoin sticks with the original Shatoshi's vision, where no layers on top of it where required.

SideChains and Lighting are nice concepts but they are no more than altcoins and the current Bitcoin Core was turning into an altcoin to acomodate those layers, far for the original vision. I don't buyed back in 2012 this concept after reading Shatoshi's white paper and i'm sure most people feels this way.

Let's people vote! Smiley

"pit pat piffy wing wong wang"
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:15:37 PM
 #30771

SC's are clearly altcoins.  

brg444 and Adam spent months teaching us how any type of coin ala Truthcoin can hitch themselves to a SC in addition to the migrated scBTC.  in fact, have you EVER heard Blockstream place any type of restriction on what kind of speculative asset can be supported on a SC?  answer: no.  they are a form of dilution, hence inflation, to Bitcoin and will turn Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform.
Voktar
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 55


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:21:26 PM
 #30772

Exactly my thoughts Cypher. And i'm sure most people are not stupid and can see the same.

Anyone that bought a stake on The Blockchain by buying bitcoins is going to defend their money from anyone who tries to dilute it to another layers, by voting.

And this is what is happening right now.

"pit pat piffy wing wong wang"
Erdogan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 05:28:04 PM
 #30773

I can understand that theymos is in a very difficult spot - he is probably right (in a literal, technical sense) in the assertion that XT as a theory is on topic, but as a viable, downloadable solution it becomes an alt-coin. Until it reaches consensus,

But what troubles me is the zeal with which this policy is still being executed across the platforms. At this point, who really benefits from a suppression of debate?
(bear in mind that we are free to discuss it here and many other topics)

During the fall of the Berlin wall, there was a pivotal moment when the border guards finally recognised the futility of their duty, and allowed people through unchallenged.

Way out of the mess: Core adds a largeblock patch, different from gavins but who cares. Othere XT patches are delayed to make them look important.

If not, they go the way of the Xfree86 developers - into the fog.

Next fight is over the name. I suggest renaming XT to core by april depending on 75% supermajority as expressed by just doing it. Smiley



It would have to follow a BIP. But isnt this scenario what MH and GA wanted all along?  The failure to get this resulted in XT.

Exactly. It is the way out, no fork, everybody is happy (some just a tad butthurt).




i'm not sure about that.  no one, esp me, wants to live under a Blockstream totalitarian regime that only will act when they have a gun pointed at their heads.  look at some of the kludges they've slipped into the code w/o anyone knowing according to Hearn's forking article.

Yes, I will continue with XT also, but if they open up for longer blocks, they might keep their team. Some would not bother to switch, and the "officialness" rings with some.

tvbcof
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 1988


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 07:12:00 PM
 #30774

SC's are clearly altcoins.

Different class.  'Sidecoins' are most accurately described as a proxy for Bitcoin.  Use of sidecoins impacts the macro-economics of Bitcoin in pretty much exactly the way that use of Bitcoin itself does.  'Alts' are completely stand-alone and as such are competitors.  'sidechains' are more like colored-coins and in some ways it might be argued that this is what they are at their core.

Sidechains are a disaster for people hoping to do analytics on the blockchain down to an individual level because they need to tap into every sidecoin's system.  Since some sidechains will be specifically designed to make that a challenge the task becomes impossible.  Disaster!

It cannot really be argued that sidechains are going to steal Bitcoin's thunder by robbing it of transaction fees since everyone on the bloatist side is dead set against meaningful fees.  It's pretty clear to me as someone who has been in the business that to the extent that revenue is anticipated by Bitcoin infrastructure operators, it is to come from harvest of intelligence data and either processing it themselves or selling it to a processor.  This is the way most internet services work these days.

A nicety for some is that the highest value for intelligence comes from 'full capture' so there is an economic incentive to achieve this.  Near-monopolization of operating infrastructure would also would make coin white/black-listing relatively workable just as Mr. Hearn has predicted for years.
 
brg444 and Adam spent months teaching us how any type of coin ala Truthcoin can hitch themselves to a SC in addition to the migrated scBTC.  in fact, have you EVER heard Blockstream place any type of restriction on what kind of speculative asset can be supported on a SC?  answer: no.  they are a form of dilution, hence inflation, to Bitcoin and will turn Bitcoin into a WoW trading platform.

The economics of 'speculation' in a full-peg environment are no different than people simply using native Bitcoin heavily.  People are perfectly free to speculate in native Bitcoin, and to date that is what has happened in the economy mostly I think.

You bloatcoiners may have plans to implement control measures in XT which preclude speculation as far as I know.  With the infrastructure needed for tainting, control of speculation would, in fact, be tenable.

edit: slight (between ngix gateway errors.)

rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 07:49:24 PM
 #30775

You know it is bad when the top post on /r/bitcoin is a Tyrion Lannister quote on free speech.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h6exq/request_let_users_decide_what_content_they_want/

It's even worse when the highest upvoted post (that even made it to /r/all) is an active call to remove /r/theymos with over 90% in favor.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h5f90/these_mods_need_to_be_changed_upvote_if_you_agree/
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 07:51:44 PM
 #30776

still ramping:



Nodes are great an all, but consensus is derived from miners. 100% of nodes could be running XT but it wouldn't matter if the miners don't.

What is needed an each way to track each pool and how they are voting, that way individual miners could vote with their feet and move to pools that match their views.
sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 07:57:18 PM
 #30777

The only possible attack here is that over the next several months MP will explicitly reject blocks from nodes advertising they are 70010 protocol. For this to have any material effect though, he would need >50% of the current network hashing power to also explicitly reject those blocks, so that people running XT are disincentivised to continue doing so.

I have joined btc way too late to have a clear picture of MP's "arsenal" consistency, but it's not the first time that I heard a respectable member of the community to refer to his disruptive potential in a serious manner. To make a long story short, is he really so powerful?

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
kenbytes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392



View Profile
August 16, 2015, 07:58:49 PM
 #30778

i only watch the price of bitcoin !! Smiley)

sickpig
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1106


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 08:02:44 PM
 #30779


Nodes are great an all, but consensus is derived from miners. 100% of nodes could be running XT but it wouldn't matter if the miners don't.

What is needed an each way to track each pool and how they are voting, that way individual miners could vote with their feet and move to pools that match their views.

Jeff Garzik stated today that more than 80% of the hashpower supports blocks  larger than 1MB

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/632877777688006656


Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
rocks
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1153


View Profile
August 16, 2015, 08:07:12 PM
 #30780


Nodes are great an all, but consensus is derived from miners. 100% of nodes could be running XT but it wouldn't matter if the miners don't.

What is needed an each way to track each pool and how they are voting, that way individual miners could vote with their feet and move to pools that match their views.

Jeff Garzik stated today that more than 80% of the hashpower supports blocks  larger than 1MB

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/632877777688006656

Up until now they have been communicating this as BIP100. We need to track BIP101 adoption.
Pages: « 1 ... 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 [1539] 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 1545 1546 1547 1548 1549 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 1555 1556 1557 1558 1559 1560 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!