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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804292 times)
brg444
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August 07, 2015, 09:26:29 PM
 #29981

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

They're arguably one of the major players in the mining industry at the moment so you might want to check your facts...

Just did a quick search, but my Google seems to be on the blink at the moment.  Mind giving me a link to their mining gear?  Pics of their chips?  Farm?  A mining address?
Thanks.


Details are scarce since they are still in stealth mode but here goes:

https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pool/21inc

Quote
The document suggests 21 had sought to build 20,000-server, 26-megawatt datacenters to serve as the center of a mining pool that could ensure block rewards.

As an example of the potential power of its pool, 21's mining operations generated approximately 5,700 BTC in 2013 and 69,000 BTC the following year, according to the document.

Quote
Intel factories, the documents suggested, were responsible for at least two generations of 21 bitcoin mining chips, a 0.57 w/GH 22nm FinFET chip (codenamed CyrusOne) and a 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip (codenamed Brownfield).

http://www.coindesk.com/21-inc-confirms-plans-bitcoin-distribution/

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 07, 2015, 09:39:21 PM
 #29982

-snip-
I wouldn't be surprised if a company like 21inc is doing it already
-snip-

"A chip in every toaster" people?

There are two ways of making money with bitcoin mining.  One is to mine (risky, often disastrously unprofitable), the other is selling dreams to starry-eyed bitcoiners (easy, fun, works 99% of the time, no tech/con experience required).

Don't think 21inc is planning to do much mining.

The key is to hire a talented and proven shill.  If only there were someone like that around here...

yeah, and despite someone explaining to you what went on, you'd rather apply your own judgment biases w/o any investigation or knowledge:

http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/pug.jpg

Well 'Speak of the Devil and he shall appear.'


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August 07, 2015, 09:39:43 PM
 #29983

The economy has been growing since 2010.
The economy has been growing since 2010.
Yes, it has been growing since 2010.

these guys used to be one of the biggest bulk carrier companies in the world.  not so much anymore:


OMG you sound like the conspiracy idiots at Zero Knowledge.  Don't you know [easy credit * car loans] = [economic growth]?

As long as credit (which is money) is growing, the economy is growing as well.
As soon as the total credit sum deflates, the economy deflates as well.
This is in short the 1x1 of capitalism, which is debitism.

Less credit (less money) = less economy
Moar credit = moar economy


"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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August 07, 2015, 09:40:46 PM
 #29984


no.  i want an international digital monetary system that is apolitical and fair, controlled by no one, that is cheap, fast, easy and accessible by all ppl's of the world, that has a fixed supply so as to not be inflatable, that will replace gold, & that can take the human race into the next technological growth phase.  there's alot of great things to look forward to.  esp for our kids whom i'm esp worried for and hope to get thru the debt bubble collapse.

Ok, then please do not try to develop software. Let's leave "core devs" doing their job. Everything is going fine.  :-) Eye surgery and software development are two different things.

On the face of it I'd  agree. But after spending  5y in Bitcoin interacting with devs like you I've  learned that code doesn't write itself. It starts with a bunch of you sitting around a table trying to figure out things like if 2% inflation in an altcoin would be better accepted by the average Joe than 1%, or if Snoor sigs will verify faster than ECDSA to improve waiting times in checkout lines, or the decision to implement p2sh so that multiple parties can split the responsibility of securing the money stored at one address; all those sound like technical problems but they really are ideological and economic beliefs based on assumed human behavior coded into the software. Amir Taaki is one of the only devs who flat out admits this and I am thankful for his honesty.

Even this whole block size debate is based on ideology and economic belief about how human beings will react in a given situation. It's been leaking out much more lately as the Cripplecoiners have been reaching desperately for every argument they can get their hands on. Instead of them being truly technical about their arguments, they instead throw out a bunch of armchair logic without any real data as to why Bitcoin can't scale. The reality is that all of them believe they should be able to run a full node (ideology) and they believe Bitcoin should be a settlement layer (false economics). They want the code to enforce those principles so they blockade any one who disagrees with them with technical sounding FUD. There's even financial conflict of interest entering the picture.

Code doesn't write itself.

Since joining this community in March 2013, I've been surprised at this focus on "coders."  In my non-bitcoin work, coders implement algorithms which result from work in physics or signal processing theory; or, the coders work on user interfaces.  In other words, the coders usually implement ideas from the sciences, or work to make software more intuitive and natural for the end user.    

Bitcoin is highly interdisciplinary, sitting at a strange intersection of computer science, physics, economics and sociology.  Bitcoin's code enforces ideas that take into account important insight from all of these disciplines.  The code is just the mechanism for enforcement and the coders are the mechanics. What should be shaping the future of Bitcoin are the best ideas from computer science, physics, economics and insight into human behaviour.  

To view Bitcoin as strictly a "coding project" is myopic.  

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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August 07, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
 #29985

the sweet smell of deflation:



Don't worry, if you thought Bennie's helicopter drop was large you haven't seen anything yet. The FED will panic print to dig out of the debt depression hole they've created and the only things that will survive are real assets and real money. XOM owns real assets and will still exist on the other size of the FED's crash and still pay out cash flow from operations, in whatever unit is used as currency at the time.
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August 07, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
 #29986

the sweet smell of deflation:



Don't worry, if you thought Bennie's helicopter drop was large you haven't seen anything yet. The FED will panic print to dig out of the debt depression hole they've created and the only things that will survive are real assets and real money. XOM owns real assets and will still exist on the other size of the FED's crash and still pay out cash flow from operations, in whatever unit is used as currency at the time.

can we please give Bitcoin the chance to be that unit?

edit:  not that i think it would be that unit.  surely it will just be more USD's.  but what i mean is, can we allow Bitcoin tx rate and market cap to skyrocket as a result?
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August 07, 2015, 10:21:47 PM
 #29987

well looky here.  good job Ben!:

https://www.bitfinex.com/pages/announcements/?id=51
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August 07, 2015, 10:23:30 PM
 #29988


California residents up next?

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/08/license-kill-innovation-why-ab-1326-californias-bitcoin-license-bad-business
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August 07, 2015, 10:32:23 PM
 #29989


just finished that one.

yeah, EFF usually has a good nose about these things.
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August 07, 2015, 10:58:20 PM
 #29990

The economy has been growing since 2010.
The economy has been growing since 2010.
Yes, it has been growing since 2010.

these guys used to be one of the biggest bulk carrier companies in the world.  not so much anymore:


OMG you sound like the conspiracy idiots at Zero Knowledge.  Don't you know [easy credit * car loans] = [economic growth]?

As long as credit (which is money) is growing, the economy is growing as well.
As soon as the total credit sum deflates, the economy deflates as well.
This is in short the 1x1 of capitalism, which is debitism.

Less credit (less money) = less economy
Moar credit = moar economy

https://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?width=630&height=378&range=Max&id=TCMDO

and as Cypher and iCE elude too that does not benefit the 99% but just those with assess to type of capital you need to fund multinational corporations and there acquisitions so yes the system is growing, no it's not healthy.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
brg444
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August 07, 2015, 11:32:14 PM
 #29991

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 07, 2015, 11:39:19 PM
 #29992

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr
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August 07, 2015, 11:49:58 PM
 #29993

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr

You of all ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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August 08, 2015, 12:03:48 AM
 #29994

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr

You of all ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

no, i for one, will be more than happy to fork away from all those devs and you, esp LukeJr.
brg444
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August 08, 2015, 12:05:09 AM
 #29995

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr

I have no reason to idolize or care about Luke Jr.

Just maybe consider that he had the right insight in this particular scenario and avoided us a great deal of the trouble we would have encountered had we went with Gavin's proposed "solution.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 08, 2015, 12:23:17 AM
 #29996

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.
Thanks for posting that link. It was a great example of how to manufacture panic and raise trivial resource allocation problems into widespread abuse opportunities.

It is still interesting that despite years passing nearly nobody in the Bitcoin development circles has even a passing knowledge of operational issues with database management systems.

The problem could have been trivially fixed by creating two line text file and restarting the Bitcoin daemon. The patch could be issued later after more careful analysis.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152208.0

The crowd around Mircea Popescu follows the same path years later:

http://qntra.net/2015/08/new-per-block-transaction-highs-wedge-some-nodes-patch-available/


Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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August 08, 2015, 12:26:59 AM
 #29997

Luke Jr. ... had the right insight in this particular scenario and avoided us a great deal of the trouble we would have encountered had we went with Gavin's proposed "solution.

Frap.doc hasn't forgotten that.  It's increased his cognitive dissonance, in the form of fuel for his long lasting buttburn.

These days, gmax and ptodd don't even make his 'I hate your stupid face' shortlist!   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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August 08, 2015, 12:33:00 AM
 #29998

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr

I have no reason to idolize or care about Luke Jr.

Just maybe consider that he had the right insight in this particular scenario and avoided us a great deal of the trouble we would have encountered had we went with Gavin's proposed "solution.

just finished reading that.  Luke did have the right intuition right off the bat.  kudos to him.

interesting comment below:

"23:31    Eleuthria    I absolutely agree, there is no way the 0.8 chain can continue in this situation. An involuntary hardfork doesn't gain legitimacy due to majority. "

edit:  he's referring to the fact that Gox was on 0.7
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August 08, 2015, 12:38:10 AM
 #29999

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.
Thanks for posting that link. It was a great example of how to manufacture panic and raise trivial resource allocation problems into widespread abuse opportunities.

It is still interesting that despite years passing nearly nobody in the Bitcoin development circles has even a passing knowledge of operational issues with database management systems.

The problem could have been trivially fixed by creating two line text file and restarting the Bitcoin daemon. The patch could be issued later after more careful analysis.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=152208.0

The crowd around Mircea Popescu follows the same path years later:

http://qntra.net/2015/08/new-per-block-transaction-highs-wedge-some-nodes-patch-available/



wtf is this from your 2nd link?  Cripplecoiner's Idol?:


Mircea Popescu says:   
August 1, 2015 at 5:09 pm

"Bitcoin Core" is the name a collection of USG moles and assorted scammers are giving to a pile of spaghetti that's unfit to run on Windows even.

It did enjoy some temporary attention in the early days of Bitcoin, chiefly through the happenstance that there not being any actual brains involved with the project.

Meanwhile it's lost any importance, either intellectual or practical. Miners run homebrew, thinking people run the Bitcoin Foundation client. That's all, really.
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August 08, 2015, 12:53:58 AM
 #30000

Interesting piece on the 2013 fork.  https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Some ungrateful people here need to show a little more respect for the work of the devs, especially LukeJr.

You of all people would idolize Luke jr

I have no reason to idolize or care about Luke Jr.

Just maybe consider that he had the right insight in this particular scenario and avoided us a great deal of the trouble we would have encountered had we went with Gavin's proposed "solution.

just finished reading that.  Luke did have the right intuition right off the bat.  kudos to him.

interesting comment below:

"23:31    Eleuthria    I absolutely agree, there is no way the 0.8 chain can continue in this situation. An involuntary hardfork doesn't gain legitimacy due to majority. "

I was mining on BTCguild back then, I was rather disappeared at that decision at the time but none the less developers may have stressed but in my mind it highlight how simply it was to implement a hard fork so long as the intent was honorable, also it makes the idea that one fork become an altcoin seem daft. Power players like Eleuthria knew exactly where their interests lay and voluntary gave up the advantage he had and his customer had to the benefit of the merchants who provide services to the community at large.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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