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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805122 times)
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 06:28:23 AM
 #30261

how did I not find this guy's medium blog before? full of gems

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello

Quote
Why Votes Don’t Matter
Many of the proposals for the fork include a voting mechanism for miners to signal that they are upgraded. However, miners very easily can lie about their intentions. A miner may wish to trick other miners into mining the fork, then continue to mine the small block sizes in an attempt to have less competition by having miners waste efforts on a fork that will be orphaned. Votes will be extremely hard to trust.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
"Apparently, so I am told, there exist "people" who prefer to wipe sitting down. From the front. Initial research indicates it could be up to half the population." -- benjamindees
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iCEBREAKER
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August 12, 2015, 06:36:58 AM
 #30262

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com?   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
iCEBREAKER
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August 12, 2015, 06:46:39 AM
 #30263

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello

Quote
Why Votes Don’t Matter
Many of the proposals for the fork include a voting mechanism for miners to signal that they are upgraded. However, miners very easily can lie about their intentions. A miner may wish to trick other miners into mining the fork, then continue to mine the small block sizes in an attempt to have less competition by having miners waste efforts on a fork that will be orphaned. Votes will be extremely hard to trust.

We knew vote spoofing due to incompetence was a thing from BIP66, and predicted much more would arise (due to malice/strategy) in a contentious/gameable situation.

That quote does a good job of unpacking the immediately obvious implications.

XT is trying to lure Bitcoin into a dangerous zone of chaos, where its antifragility would be tested like never before.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Zangelbert Bingledack
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August 12, 2015, 06:46:59 AM
 #30264

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.
smooth
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August 12, 2015, 06:53:47 AM
 #30265

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com?   Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 06:54:27 AM
 #30266

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

What exactly are you referring to?

For once it seemed to me the more balanced and reasonable opinions prevailed..

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 07:00:15 AM
 #30267

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com?   Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Seems the centralization/network effect of lightning nodes might not hold if Rusty gets his way...



https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/ctzz2jz

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 12, 2015, 07:02:54 AM
 #30268

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com?   Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Seems the centralization/network effect of lightning nodes might not hold if Rusty gets his way...



https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/ctzz2jz

I question the incentive for a client to choose random nodes in that manner. Seems like it could work initially (as implemented by Rusty, etc.) but then break as clients get smarter.
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 07:11:21 AM
 #30269

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
rebuilder
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August 12, 2015, 07:13:05 AM
 #30270

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

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lunarboy
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August 12, 2015, 07:14:26 AM
 #30271


China has done it again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33875061

 "This is now the biggest two-day lowering of the yuan's rate against the dollar in more than two decades. "


also at ZH http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/yuan-collapses-stocks-slide-credit-risk-hits-2-year-high-after-china-devalues-curren

top comment

'It's as if millions of carry traders screamed out in terror...and were suddenly silenced.' Shocked
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 07:18:45 AM
 #30272

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

This was indeed pointed out to him by me and several others.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
smooth
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August 12, 2015, 07:21:06 AM
 #30273

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

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August 12, 2015, 07:40:01 AM
 #30274

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

1. Scale Bitcoin
2. Huh
3. Profit

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Natalia_AnatolioPAMM
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August 12, 2015, 07:47:01 AM
 #30275


China has done it again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33875061

 "This is now the biggest two-day lowering of the yuan's rate against the dollar in more than two decades. "


also at ZH http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/yuan-collapses-stocks-slide-credit-risk-hits-2-year-high-after-china-devalues-curren

top comment

'It's as if millions of carry traders screamed out in terror...and were suddenly silenced.' Shocked

That's scaring indeed. Who knows when will it stop falling and what will lead to

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Zarathustra
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August 12, 2015, 08:51:05 AM
 #30276


But no one here claimed that post had been censored.  Huh


At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzetoj

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzbzuh

"censored post ?"

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
iCEBREAKER
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August 12, 2015, 09:00:48 AM
 #30277

At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.

"Us" obviously refers to myself, and the mods being called "the epitome of authoritarian" and "ready for book burnings."

Why would you possibly imagine *you* have anything to do with my post?  Nobody cares what you think, much less what you are or not spared.   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Erdogan
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August 12, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
 #30278

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

Not hard at all. Update the business plan.
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August 12, 2015, 10:05:15 AM
 #30279

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

Agreed that crisis will force consensus. It's just that XT is part of that process, whether it serves the purpose of the new Bitcoin implementation or just the pressure that gets Core in gear.
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August 12, 2015, 10:05:44 AM
 #30280

It is resolved. We won. The devil lost.


Is this referring to the blocksize debate? I wouldn't call victory yet. We have pretty good chances to end the blockade and hijacking, but there is still a lot of convincing to do!

I'll say we won when we have a thousand blocks or so on the high block limit chain.
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