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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2009258 times)
Peter R
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August 16, 2015, 10:44:17 PM
 #30781

I'm curious how this holds in a scenario where block propagation is constant because of inverted bloom filters?

If block solution propagation grows slower than log Q, where Q is the size of the block, then the fee market becomes unhealthy and miners are incentivized to produced arbitrarily large blocks.  I show in my paper that this is not physically possible due to the Shannon-Hartley Theorem.  

This discussion relates to my main point of contention with Greg Maxwell.  In email correspondence, he suggested that it would be possible to have infinite coding gain for block solutions announcement. (I.e., he suggested that block solutions can truly be communicated in an amount of time that does not depend, even asymptotically, on the amount of transactions included in the block.  He said this is possible if what went into a block was already agreed upon far ahead of time [so that zero information needed to be communicated when the block was solved]).  I think the onus is on him to rigorously show:

(a) Under what assumptions/requirements such a communication scheme is physically possible.

(b) That such a configuration is not equivalent to a single entity1 controlling >50% of the hash power.

(c) That the network moving into such a configuration is plausible.

Nevertheless, I've agreed with him to discuss this point of contention when I make the other corrections to my paper.  

1For example, if--in order to achieve such a configuration with infinite coding gain--miners can no longer choose how to structure their blocks according to their own volition, then I would classify those miners as slaves rather than as peers, and the network as already centralized.

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Peter R
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August 16, 2015, 10:48:30 PM
 #30782

It doesn't take much brains to figure out why the speed of increase of avg block has accelerated from days where Bitcoin had 10,000 users and how it projects to pickup even more speed as adoption and awareness grows.

"Supply creates its own demand"

This is false.  The growth rate of the average block size was fastest in early 2011. 

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iCEBREAKER
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August 16, 2015, 10:50:17 PM
 #30783

Side chains are certainly altcoins.

Maybe in your universe.

Lol how are they not?

They are essentially watered down versions of Bitcoin lol with a separate block chain.

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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Erdogan
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August 16, 2015, 10:53:36 PM
 #30784

Side chains are certainly altcoins.

Maybe in your universe.

Lol how are they not?

They are essentially watered down versions of Bitcoin lol with a separate block chain.

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).

iCEBREAKER
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August 16, 2015, 10:56:33 PM
 #30785

Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".

You are also welcome to fuck to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt, where your XT junta will not be "suppressed" by moderators enforcing rules.

Why are you supporting theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism" and "censorship" by gracing his forum with your presence?


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
iCEBREAKER
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August 16, 2015, 10:59:20 PM
 #30786

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).


Fiat, LOL.

Do you know what the phrase "ATOMIC TRANSACTION" means?   Cheesy

(Keep acting stupid, I can do this all day.)


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
brg444
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August 16, 2015, 11:01:45 PM
 #30787

It doesn't take much brains to figure out why the speed of increase of avg block has accelerated from days where Bitcoin had 10,000 users and how it projects to pickup even more speed as adoption and awareness grows.

"Supply creates its own demand"

This is false.  The growth rate of the average block size was fastest in early 2011. 

Well that sort of makes sense considering it started from barely anything but the point still stand.

Do you propose the growth rate of blocksize to decrease with time. I'm pretty convinced it won't until we start serving half of the transactions on earth (if we do insist on keeping them all on blockchain)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Erdogan
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August 16, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
 #30788

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).


Fiat, LOL.

Do you know what the phrase "ATOMIC TRANSACTION" means?   Cheesy

(Keep acting stupid, I can do this all day.)

Keep acting smart.

cypherdoc
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August 16, 2015, 11:02:59 PM
 #30789

"Supply creates its own demand"

you always say this as if it is a one way function leading to XT gloom.

i think the opposite is even more likely, "demand creates it's own supply".  i've talked about this before, as internet traffic demand from XT increases thru user fee based tx's, ISP providers could be thrilled to be able to monetize all the new traffic as they have long envisioned via the new internet economy.  growth of the online economy is something they have been preparing for years for.  all that fiber optic cable being laid across Africa as we speak could bring on billions of new internet users all of whom will have to pay some degree of connectivity fees.  same goes for Western economies.  i'd bet these ISP's love economic growth way more than oppressive gvt regulations choking that same growth.
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August 16, 2015, 11:03:48 PM
 #30790

Side chains are certainly altcoins.

Maybe in your universe.

Lol how are they not?

They are essentially watered down versions of Bitcoin lol with a separate block chain.

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).


There is a world of difference between an economic peg (fiat) and a technical peg (sidechains)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 11:05:19 PM
 #30791

Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".

You are also welcome to fuck to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt, where your XT junta will not be "suppressed" by moderators enforcing rules.

Why are you supporting theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism" and "censorship" by gracing his forum with your presence?

What are you so afraid of, that you agree with all this censorship ?
Peter R
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August 16, 2015, 11:07:44 PM
 #30792

It doesn't take much brains to figure out why the speed of increase of avg block has accelerated from days where Bitcoin had 10,000 users and how it projects to pickup even more speed as adoption and awareness grows.

"Supply creates its own demand"

This is false.  The growth rate of the average block size was fastest in early 2011.  

Well that sort of makes sense considering it started from barely anything but the point still stand.

Do you propose the growth rate of blocksize to decrease with time. I'm pretty convinced it won't until we start serving half of the transactions on earth (if we do insist on keeping them all on blockchain)

I propose it will grow somewhere between the HIGH and the MODERATE curves in this chart (that I feel I've posted ten times recently):



This would be a very good thing!

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
cypherdoc
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August 16, 2015, 11:10:38 PM
 #30793

Go on smoothie.  Go on evoorhees.  Fuck off to greener, censorship-free pastures where may you attempt to attack Bitcoin all you want.

Don't let me stop you.  You're free now...move into the light...   Cheesy

iCEBLOW throwing his weapons.  or, blowing his weapons.

or, in medical terms, engaging in "projectile vomiting".

You are also welcome to fuck to https://voat.co/v/bitcoinxt, where your XT junta will not be "suppressed" by moderators enforcing rules.

Why are you supporting theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism" and "censorship" by gracing his forum with your presence?

i think i need to change your resume from bombastic to ballistic.  the projectile vomiting part still applies however.
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August 16, 2015, 11:15:20 PM
 #30794


With any less than 50% then MP is economically disadvantaging himself, and then it is a question of how big his pockets are and how much he is prepared to risk.


"How big?"  Sufficiently big.

"How much?"  Enough.


Everyone rushing to be the first XTcoin recipients are economically advantaging MP & Co by writing them free options:

Quote

This is a fight which, BY DESIGN, you Gavinistas cannot win.  Poor thing, no wonder it's "doing your head in."

Quote


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
iCEBREAKER
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August 16, 2015, 11:17:30 PM
 #30795

no, the Blockstream core devs already had their own Jekyll Island moment in the backwoods of California early last year.

You say Bohemian Grove, I say Satoshi Forest.   Grin Grin Grin


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
brg444
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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


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August 16, 2015, 11:18:02 PM
 #30796

It doesn't take much brains to figure out why the speed of increase of avg block has accelerated from days where Bitcoin had 10,000 users and how it projects to pickup even more speed as adoption and awareness grows.

"Supply creates its own demand"

This is false.  The growth rate of the average block size was fastest in early 2011.  

Well that sort of makes sense considering it started from barely anything but the point still stand.

Do you propose the growth rate of blocksize to decrease with time. I'm pretty convinced it won't until we start serving half of the transactions on earth (if we do insist on keeping them all on blockchain)

I propose it will grow somewhere between the HIGH and the MODERATE curves in this chart (that I feel I've posted ten times recently):



This would be a very good thing!

I find that quite bearish actually  Undecided

It took Paypal more or less 15 years to get to where they're at. 9 more years for Bitcoin to get there? I propose this is quite unlikely

Consider that some of the industry heads many of you have used to support your positions believe Bitcoin could turn into the reserve currency of the world within the next 10 years. Guess we're shit out of luck if that happens heh

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Erdogan
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August 16, 2015, 11:21:57 PM
 #30797

Side chains are certainly altcoins.

Maybe in your universe.

Lol how are they not?

They are essentially watered down versions of Bitcoin lol with a separate block chain.

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).


There is a world of difference between an economic peg (fiat) and a technical peg (sidechains)

I have argued this before. The market is the proverbial gravity. If the peg is not allowed to break, all value will flow either to the sidechain or out of the sidechain. My personal guess is out of. Meaning the sidecoin fails.

So keep talking about sidechains for ten years, collect and burn mountains of dollar risk capital, because if you try to implement it, it will prove its futility, and investor money dries up.


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August 16, 2015, 11:22:40 PM
 #30798


Just incredible how much crap an early adopter can write. He just writes like an angry internet troll. His posts contain mostly personal attacks.
brg444
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August 16, 2015, 11:27:14 PM
 #30799

Side chains are certainly altcoins.

Maybe in your universe.

Lol how are they not?

They are essentially watered down versions of Bitcoin lol with a separate block chain.

Sidechains are not altcoins, nor are they "watered down," nor are their block chain's "seperate."

Do you guys know what the phrase "TWO WAY PEG" means?   Cheesy

Yes, something that is impossible. Ask the SNB (down) or PBOC (up).


There is a world of difference between an economic peg (fiat) and a technical peg (sidechains)

I have argued this before. The market is the proverbial gravity. If the peg is not allowed to break, all value will flow either to the sidechain or out of the sidechain. My personal guess is out of. Meaning the sidecoin fails.

So keep talking about sidechains for ten years, collect and burn mountains of dollar risk capital, because if you try to implement it, it will prove its futility, and investor capital dries up

The likelihood of sidechains becoming an integral part of Bitcoin is, I'd argue, far more important than any chance XT fork has at succeeding.

Keep burying your head in the ground and ignore innovation

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 11:27:56 PM
 #30800



7-1/2% and climbing. 


In other news, the guy (/u/raisethelimit) who posted the cartoons of the thermos was apparently banned for 30 days for trolling: 



https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/comments/3h8tf2/uraisethelimit_was_banned_for_30_days_for_posting/

That act alone speaks volumes about the other side's state of mind.

"Throwing their weapons" indeed, as you put it.
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