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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806422 times)
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August 15, 2015, 09:18:16 PM
 #30621


Bitcoin private keys can be used to sign a message. I believe there are some which are known to have been held by the original SN (though one can never rule out that they were later compromised), but I'm not sure.
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LEALANA Monero Physical Silver Coins


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August 15, 2015, 09:22:56 PM
 #30622

hoax? real?

you decide


Quote
Bitcoin XT Fork

Satoshi Nakamoto satoshi at vistomail.com
Sat Aug 15 17:43:54 UTC 2015
Previous message: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
Next message: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
I have been following the recent block size debates through the mailing list.  I had hoped the debate would resolve and that a fork proposal would achieve widespread consensus.  However with the formal release of Bitcoin XT 0.11A, this looks unlikely to happen, and so I am forced to share my concerns about this very dangerous fork.

The developers of this pretender-Bitcoin claim to be following my original vision, but nothing could be further from the truth.  When I designed Bitcoin, I designed it in such a way as to make future modifications to the consensus rules difficult without near unanimous agreement.  Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto.  Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it.  By doing a fork in this way, these developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to honour.

They use my old writings to make claims about what Bitcoin was supposed to be.  However I acknowledge that a lot has changed since that time, and new knowledge has been gained that contradicts some of my early opinions.  For example I didn't anticipate pooled mining and its effects on the security of the network.  Making Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take more time to come up with a robust solution.  I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism.

If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project.  Bitcoin was meant to be both technically and socially robust.  This present situation has been very disappointing to watch unfold.

Satoshi Nakamoto

███████████████████████████████████████

            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
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Peter R
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August 15, 2015, 09:24:05 PM
 #30623


Bitcoin private keys can be used to sign a message. I believe there are some which are known to have been held by the original SN (though one can never rule out that they were later compromised), but I'm not sure.


Since we know it was Satoshi who created the genesis block, signing a message with the key for the genesis block reward would be very convincing.  Anyways, it's clear as day (at least to me) that the email is fake.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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August 15, 2015, 09:24:46 PM
 #30624


Bitcoin private keys can be used to sign a message. I believe there are some which are known to have been held by the original SN (though one can never rule out that they were later compromised), but I'm not sure.


They can, but if he's never before, surely he doesn't value proving himself to anyone aside from through his words and actions, so why would the behavior suddenly change so drastically? He already admitted he wants to stay out of the politics so it's not like proving himself should matter to him.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 15, 2015, 09:27:27 PM
 #30625


Bitcoin private keys can be used to sign a message. I believe there are some which are known to have been held by the original SN (though one can never rule out that they were later compromised), but I'm not sure.


They can, but if he's never before, surely he doesn't value proving himself to anyone aside from through his words and actions, so why would the behavior suddenly change so drastically?

Let's see. 4+ year absence. Writing from a different email (old one hacked), environment vastly different than when he left, nature of the message that is purportedly being sent, etc.

But you're right in a sense. Since appeal to authority is supposed to not exist in Bitcoin and "his" new message contains no constructive input we should just ignore it.

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August 15, 2015, 09:29:04 PM
 #30626

This is very likely fake but imagine the butthurt on reddit if Satoshi came out against block increase  Cheesy Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 09:30:13 PM
 #30627


Bitcoin private keys can be used to sign a message. I believe there are some which are known to have been held by the original SN (though one can never rule out that they were later compromised), but I'm not sure.


They can, but if he's never before, surely he doesn't value proving himself to anyone aside from through his words and actions, so why would the behavior suddenly change so drastically?

Let's see. 4+ year absence. Writing from a different email (old one hacked), environment vastly different than when he left, etc.


True, but would the real Satoshi care about justifying these things? Again, I'm not all too familiar with his psychology and history.

Edit: "He used satoshin@gmx.com (from original Bitcoin whitepaper) and satoshi@vistomail.com (from email logs). gmx.com is a free email service that may or may not have had location based restrictions on registration at the time. vistomail.com is an email service from anonymousspeech, the domain registrar proxy he used to register bitcoin.org"
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5319/what-is-the-email-of-satoshi-nakamoto

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 15, 2015, 09:31:18 PM
 #30628

Well for one Garzik is not having it :

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/632643215749869568

right above that tweet:

https://twitter.com/jgarzik/status/632633971197612032

"Core must follow user wishes in the end"
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August 15, 2015, 09:32:32 PM
 #30629

In any case, I think I do agree with the contents of the post, whether or not it is SN.

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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August 15, 2015, 09:55:52 PM
 #30630

ETH Up. Bitcoin collapsing.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

BTC: 1K9atu5zgz7izCMAynk5adBJ8Qn2YgS6nT
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August 15, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
 #30631

ETH Up. Bitcoin collapsing.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Bitcoin collapsing. Stupidity up.
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August 15, 2015, 10:04:57 PM
 #30632

ETH Up. Bitcoin collapsing.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Bitcoin collapsing. Stupidity up.

Your ass up!

BTC: 1K9atu5zgz7izCMAynk5adBJ8Qn2YgS6nT
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August 15, 2015, 10:08:13 PM
 #30633

ETH Up. Bitcoin collapsing.

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Bitcoin collapsing. Stupidity up.

Your ass up!

Up fork creek. No paddle.
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August 15, 2015, 10:13:40 PM
 #30634

Regarding money, where liquidity is the all and everything, 75% majority sure is consensus, or shortly develop into consensus.
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August 15, 2015, 10:30:49 PM
 #30635


In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

Are you still sure you want to risk your tiny stash playing Hard Fork Poker with such ultra-high-rollers?


If you are relying on simple bullying tactics to defend your position then I fear that you are already tacitly accepting a high possibility of defeat.

I like your analagy of Gavin as Freedom Fighter (Sandinista). It is, in an oldskool fashion, quite apt.

The Sandanistas took on the american hegemony in South America, and despite the best (illegal) efforts of the CIA with the Contras, they prevailed.

Daniel Ortega is president of Nicaragua today.

Pointing out one would be foolish to attempt to undermine Bitcoin's economic majority is not "bullying tactics."

The Sandinistas are Marxist-Leninists, the "oldskool" Free Shit Army.  Do you really need me to explain what happens to freedom fighters (and everyday people) under Marxist-Leninist regimes?

The main reason Castro-wannabe Ortega seeks to be another Marxist Dictator For Life is to maintain his immunity from prosecution for the crimes of raping and abusing his daughter from the time she was 11 until 21.

From the Guardian, hardly a right-wing source:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/nov/07/thecomandantewhobecameaca

Quote
On top of all this shady dealing, Ortega still stands accused of raping and sexually abusing his stepdaughter from the age of 11. In 1998, when the young woman concerned, Zoilamerica Narvaez, first made public these allegations, Ortega denied them; but he has refused to give up his political immunity to contest the charges in court. Various Ortega cronies have subsequently tried to discredit Narvaez, most notably her own mother (and Ortega's wife), Rosario Murillo, who called her daughter "a slut". But Narvaez has never withdrawn the allegations and very few who know her think that she is lying.

Meanwhile, apparently in return for standing by her husband, Murillo's position and influence has conspicuously grown in the Sandinista camp. She was everywhere on the Ortega campaign, triumphantly raising her arm in support of "women's rights".

While 16 years of free-market capitalism has dramatically improved the lot of a minority of Nicaraguans, the overwhelming majority remain trapped in subsistence poverty. The tax system is a joke, which corporations avoid with impunity. "And that," as MRS leader Edmundo Jarquin told me, "is a result of an agreement between the old oligarchy and the new Sandinista oligarchy."

It takes a special kind of blinkered wishful thinking to ignore the financial, political and moral corruption of Daniel Ortega, the comandante who became a caudillo. But history shows us that, in the treasured name of anti-imperialism, anything is possible.

#REKT

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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August 15, 2015, 10:34:48 PM
 #30636

Edit: "He used satoshin@gmx.com (from original Bitcoin whitepaper) and satoshi@vistomail.com (from email logs). gmx.com is a free email service that may or may not have had location based restrictions on registration at the time. vistomail.com is an email service from anonymousspeech, the domain registrar proxy he used to register bitcoin.org"
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/5319/what-is-the-email-of-satoshi-nakamoto

Ah, I wasn't aware that he ever used anything other than gmx.

Of course one email being hacked might lead to the other one being hacked too (by similar credentials being used, a recovery process, etc.)

But as you say maybe he doesn't care if people believe the message is legit.




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August 15, 2015, 10:35:50 PM
 #30637

UnREKT the cripplecoin. Break the ICE. Go XT.
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August 15, 2015, 10:36:09 PM
 #30638

Ken Friece bitcoin-dev:

What are you so afraid of, Eric? If Mike's fork is successful, consensus is reached around larger blocks. If it is rejected, the status quo will remain for now. Network consensus, NOT CORE DEVELOPER CONSENSUS, is the only thing that matters, and those that go against network consensus will be severely punished with complete loss of income.

I'm not sure who appointed the core devs some sort of Bitcoin Gods that can hold up any change that they happen to disagree with. It seems like the core devs are scared to death that the bitcoin network may change without their blessing, so they go on and on about how terrible hard forks are. Hard forks are the only way to keep core devs in check.

Despite significant past technical bitcoin achievements, two of the most vocal opponents to a reasonable blocksize increase work for a company (Blockstream) that stands to profit directly from artificially limiting the blocksize. The whole situation reeks. Because of such a blatant conflict of interest, the ethical thing to do would be for them to either resign from Blockstream or immediately withdraw themselves from the blocksize debate. This is the type of stuff that I hoped would end with Bitcoin, but alas, I guess human nature never changes.

Personally, I think miners should give Bitcoin XT a serious look. Miners need to realize that they are in direct competition with the lightning network and sidechains for fees. Miners, ask yourselves if you think you'll earn more fees with 1 MB blocks and more off-chain transactions or with 8 MB blocks and more on-chain transactions...

The longer this debate drags on, the more I agree with BIP 100 and Jeff Garzik because the core devs are already being influenced by outside forces and should not have complete control of the blocksize. It's also interesting to note that most of the mining hashpower is already voting for 8MB blocks BIP100 style.

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August 15, 2015, 10:40:06 PM
 #30639

http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09968.html

Worth a read for all you SPV nodes & pruning fans out there.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 10:42:15 PM
 #30640

The "populism of the 1MBers" is not your concern.

Your concern is the multi-year duration and multi-billion-dollar magnitude of Bitcoin's current economic majority.

Are you going to be the first brave fellow to defect from that imposing majority by accepting Gavin-tainted XTcoins?  No?  Then you are just a poser.

In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

Are you still sure you want to risk your tiny stash playing Hard Fork Poker with such ultra-high-rollers?

Before you answer, please take into account that nodes by default prioritize tx moving older coins, and the Royalty of La Serenissima possesses, in great quantities, very old coins.

What will you do when the limit isn't raised within the next 12 months?  Continue to cry wolf?  Self harm? Or admit being wrong?   Wink

You know iCE, I also am concerned by the idea of a hostile fork, but reading your propaganda it just dawned on me that the only hostilities are coming from people like you. Everyone of any worth agrees we need to increase the block size, it's just there is a hostile minority who feel they are in power who are wanting to pick a fight.

Accommodating bigger blocks over a 12 month period given Bitcoin's exponential growth is not a hostile act, it's not rushing in a controversial change, it's a practical prudent approach.

You are part of the minority who are making it controversial and calling it hostile. I just don't see why you're opposed to letting Bitcoin grow free of manipulation and control.

I am only describing the battlefield and war gaming possible outcomes.  Those purely verbal speculative actions are not "hostilities."

This is what "a hostile minority who feel they are in power who are wanting to pick a fight" actually looks like:

https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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