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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2028278 times)
Peter R
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August 17, 2015, 03:27:08 AM
 #30841


Sidechains are workable as of now under the existing protocol.


So this irc never happened?

Quote
00:51:22 <gmaxwell> the altcoin is also a bitcoin node, and monitors bitcoin for coins assigned to the altcoin, and then permits someone on the altcoin to emerge those coins from thin air.. and then when you want to send them back you make a special transaction in the altchain and prove you did it to bitcoin.
00:51:23 <adam3us> gmaxwell: i suppose the other thing is it itself requires bitcoin changes, perhaps non-trivial ones, and that is part of the reason for the exercise.
00:51:46 <gmaxwell> yea, unfortunately it requires changes to bitcoin.
00:52:18 <gmaxwell> we could _almost_ do it in script without the disabled opcodes, but there are enough little corners that I suspect we can't.

Which "altcoin" are they talking about here?


you name it; they aim to sidechain it.

I think you're missing the point. The whole conversation is here:

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/wizards/2013-12-18.txt

It is quite clear that they consider sidechains to be altcoins backed by bitcoin. Because, well, quite obviously, that exactly what sidechains are.

Until of course that got rebranded.


that was a good read.

note the complexity.  BlueMatt brought that up along with the greater size of the proof required for altcoins to return to MC:

"00:37:09 <BlueMatt> yea, though depending on cutting-edge crypto is ugly..."

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.  In my opinion, this should be a significant part of the paper, as it's the only part that's not at all obvious (at least to me) how it would work (and getting your coins back is also sort of the most important part).  The authors wrote about half a page on the topic on p. 8, and devoted Appendix B to it as well (2.5 pages).

From the description on p. 8, I understand the idea of the SPV proof.  The appendix, however, seems more like an argument that such a proof might exists and what its properties might be, rather than a fully-defined implementation of a workable solution.   

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August 17, 2015, 03:30:23 AM
 #30842


Im just here observing your desperation curve, wondering where it will intersect the bitcoinXT adoption curve.


Good luck observing the "bitcoinXT adoption curve."  You're going to need it.   Wink

We have entered the fog of war, with version stamp weaponization ensuing exactly as I predicted.

This is a special fork for those who do not agree with the blocksize scheduled increase as proposed by Gavin and Mike in their divisive altcoin fork, "Bitcoin XT".

This version can be used to protect the status quo until real technical consensus is formed about the blocksize.

This version is indistinguishable from Bitcoin XT 0.11A except that it will not actually hard fork to BIP101, yet appears on the p2p network as Bitcoin XT 0.11A replete with features, yet at a consensus level behaves just like Bitcoin Core 0.11. If it is used to mine, it will produce XT block versions without actually supporting >1MB blocks.

Running this version and/or mining with XT block versions will make it impossible for the Bitcoin XT network to detect the correct switchover and cause a premature fork of anyone foolish enough to support BIP101 without wide consensus from the technical community.

It prevents correct detection of Bitcoin XT adoption in the wild since usage will be known to have been tampered with and thus all statistical data gathered by getnodes can only be considered unreliable.

https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt

Your move, hearn@sigint.google.mil.   Cool


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Monero
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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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Peter R
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August 17, 2015, 03:37:04 AM
 #30843


Im just here observing your desperation curve, wondering where it will intersect the bitcoinXT adoption curve.


Good luck observing the "bitcoinXT adoption curve."  You're going to need it.   Wink

We have entered the fog of war, with version stamp weaponization ensuing exactly as I predicted.

This is a special fork for those who do not agree with the blocksize scheduled increase as proposed by Gavin and Mike in their divisive altcoin fork, "Bitcoin XT".

This version can be used to protect the status quo until real technical consensus is formed about the blocksize.

This version is indistinguishable from Bitcoin XT 0.11A except that it will not actually hard fork to BIP101, yet appears on the p2p network as Bitcoin XT 0.11A replete with features, yet at a consensus level behaves just like Bitcoin Core 0.11. If it is used to mine, it will produce XT block versions without actually supporting >1MB blocks.

Running this version and/or mining with XT block versions will make it impossible for the Bitcoin XT network to detect the correct switchover and cause a premature fork of anyone foolish enough to support BIP101 without wide consensus from the technical community.

It prevents correct detection of Bitcoin XT adoption in the wild since usage will be known to have been tampered with and thus all statistical data gathered by getnodes can only be considered unreliable.

https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt

Your move, hearn@sigint.google.mil.   Cool

Wait a second…the small block supporters are going to sybil attack the network in favour of BitcoinXT?  So your plan is to increase the momentum behind XT, helping to convince miners, exchanges, payment processors and web wallets that larger blocks are inevitable, thereby compelling them to add support for larger blocks sooner than they otherwise would have?

Carry on then...


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August 17, 2015, 03:38:24 AM
 #30844

I think you're missing the point. The whole conversation is here:

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/wizards/2013-12-18.txt

It is quite clear that they consider sidechains to be altcoins backed by bitcoin. Because, well, quite obviously, that exactly what sidechains are.

Until of course that got rebranded.


that was a good read.

note the complexity.  BlueMatt brought that up along with the greater size of the proof required for altcoins to return to MC:

"00:37:09 <BlueMatt> yea, though depending on cutting-edge crypto is ugly..."

Are you doing this on purpose?

Did you consider or even understand the context in which this was said?

Note to the reader: "the complexity" is brought forward when having to scale sidechains by making them more efficient through compacting the necessary proof required to move between chains using SNARKs. Absolutely not something that is necessary to have workable sidechains now or ever.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 03:42:24 AM
 #30845

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.

No, read again, absolutely not what Matt is referring to.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Peter R
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August 17, 2015, 03:47:17 AM
 #30846

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.

No, read again, absolutely not what Matt is referring to.

I'm talking about the crypto required to produce an efficient SPV proof to move the coins from the sidechain back to the main chain (Appendix B).  We don't have to call it "cutting edge" if you don't want to; however, can you link me to a paper that fully specifies how such an "efficient SPV proof" could be implemented for Bitcoin?  

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August 17, 2015, 03:54:44 AM
 #30847

Wait a second…the small block supporters are going to sybil attack the network in favour of BitcoinXT?  So your plan is to increase the momentum behind XT, helping to convince miners, exchanges, payment processors and web wallets that larger blocks are inevitable, thereby compelling them to add support for larger blocks sooner than they otherwise would have?

Carry on then...

Yes, that is our plan and (TYVM) we will carry on.

But "in favour of BitcoinXT" may not turn out to actually mean what you think it does at the moment...




Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

"If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“When the enemy is relaxed, make them toil. When full, starve them. When settled, make them move.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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brg444
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August 17, 2015, 03:56:52 AM
 #30848

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.

No, read again, absolutely not what Matt is referring to.

I'm talking about the crypto required to produce an efficient SPV proof to move the coins from the sidechain back to the main chain (Appendix B).  We don't have to call it "cutting edge" if you don't want to; however, can you link me to a paper that fully specifies how such an "efficient SPV proof" could be implemented for Bitcoin?  

To be quite honest I'm not sure of the technical details but I don't believe that an actual SPV proof involves any "cutting edge" crypto. I believe the confusion may come from several debates on how to make these proofs more compact as they can be rather large.

This might help?

Quote
3. the side-chain has no mining reward, but it allows you to mint coins at no mining cost by providing an SPV proof that the coin has been suspended as in 2 on bitcoin.  The SPV proof must be buried significantly before being used to reduce risk of reorganization.  The side-chain is an SPV client to the bitcoin network, and so maintains a view of the bitcoin hash chain (but not the block data).

4. the bitcoin chain is firewalled from security bugs on the side chain, because bitcoin imposes the rule that no more coins can be reanimated than are currently suspend (with respect to a given chain).

5. to simplify what they hypothetical bitcoin change would need to consider and understand, after a coin is reanimated there is a maturity period imposed (say same as fresh mined coins).  During the maturity period the reanimation script allows a fraud proof to spend the coins back.  A fraud bounty fee (equal to the reanimate fee) can be offered by the mover to incentivize side-chain full nodes to watch reanimations and search for fraud proofs.

6. a fraud proof is an SPV proof with a longer chain showing that the proof of burn was orphaned.

There are a few options to compress the SPV proof, via Fiat-Shamir transform to provide a compact proof of amount work contained in a merkle tree of proofs of work (as proposed by Fabien Coelho link on http://hashcash.org/papers/) with params like 90% of work is proven.  But better is something Greg proposed based on skip-lists organized in a tree, where 'lucky' proofs of work are used to skip back further.  (Recalling that if you search for a 64-bit leading-0 proof-of-work, half the time you get a 65-bit, quarter 66-bit etc.)  With this mechanism you can accurately prove the amount of proof of work in a compressed tree (rather than ~90%).

http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/20140316225819.GA19846%40netbook.cypherspace.org/#msg32108143

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 03:59:17 AM
 #30849


Can you please get your Theymos Is Literally Hitler narrative sorted out?  It's getting confusing.

Im just here observing your desperation curve, wondering where it will intersect the bitcoinXT adoption curve.

 Grin Grin Grin  

When t = t*.



Simple function, 1000 words.


Im just here observing your desperation curve, wondering where it will intersect the bitcoinXT adoption curve.


Good luck observing the "bitcoinXT adoption curve."  You're going to need it.   Wink

We have entered the fog of war, with version stamp weaponization ensuing exactly as I predicted.

This is a special fork for those who do not agree with the blocksize scheduled increase as proposed by Gavin and Mike in their divisive altcoin fork, "Bitcoin XT".

This version can be used to protect the status quo until real technical consensus is formed about the blocksize.

This version is indistinguishable from Bitcoin XT 0.11A except that it will not actually hard fork to BIP101, yet appears on the p2p network as Bitcoin XT 0.11A replete with features, yet at a consensus level behaves just like Bitcoin Core 0.11. If it is used to mine, it will produce XT block versions without actually supporting >1MB blocks.

Running this version and/or mining with XT block versions will make it impossible for the Bitcoin XT network to detect the correct switchover and cause a premature fork of anyone foolish enough to support BIP101 without wide consensus from the technical community.

It prevents correct detection of Bitcoin XT adoption in the wild since usage will be known to have been tampered with and thus all statistical data gathered by getnodes can only be considered unreliable.

https://github.com/xtbit/notbitcoinxt#not-bitcoin-xt

Your move, hearn@sigint.google.mil.   Cool

Using the analogy (throwing the hockey stick) was apt before its time.
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August 17, 2015, 04:01:44 AM
 #30850

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.

No, read again, absolutely not what Matt is referring to.

I'm talking about the crypto required to produce an efficient SPV proof to move the coins from the sidechain back to the main chain (Appendix B).  We don't have to call it "cutting edge" if you don't want to; however, can you link me to a paper that fully specifies how such an "efficient SPV proof" could be implemented for Bitcoin?  

To be quite honest I'm not sure of the technical details but I don't believe that an actual SPV proof involves any "cutting edge" crypto. I believe the confusion may come from several debates on how to make these proofs more compact as they can be rather large.

Indeed, using straightforward crypto they could be very large. 

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August 17, 2015, 04:07:12 AM
 #30851

Speaking of sidechains, the one thing I never understood after reading the Blockstream paper was whether anyone had actually devised a technique to implement the "efficient SPV proofs."  This is the "cutting-edge crypto" required to move the coins back to the main chain.

No, read again, absolutely not what Matt is referring to.

I'm talking about the crypto required to produce an efficient SPV proof to move the coins from the sidechain back to the main chain (Appendix B).  We don't have to call it "cutting edge" if you don't want to; however, can you link me to a paper that fully specifies how such an "efficient SPV proof" could be implemented for Bitcoin?  

To be quite honest I'm not sure of the technical details but I don't believe that an actual SPV proof involves any "cutting edge" crypto. I believe the confusion may come from several debates on how to make these proofs more compact as they can be rather large.

Indeed, using straightforward crypto they could be very large.

No worries, we've got large blocks now as well, haven't we  Cheesy

You'd think they are goddamned stubborn at Blockstream. Why worry about innovating zero-knowledge proof to scale their sidechain when we can just inflate the block size to infinity!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 04:17:50 AM
 #30852

Simple function, 1000 words.

The function is simple.  Observing the actual XT adoption curve, through the fog of war and despite weaponized version stamps, is another matter entirely.

I'm not surprised you'd rather gloat about the funny picture than address what happens when XT is led down our garden path, into premature aggression and subsequent disaster.   Grin


Using the analogy (throwing the hockey stick) was apt before its time.

Core is using XT's own strength (mob rule popularity contests) to thwart its attack.

That's elegant judo, not hockey violence.   Cool


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
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August 17, 2015, 04:30:28 AM
 #30853

Simple function, 1000 words.

The function is simple.  Observing the actual XT adoption curve, though the fog of war and despite weaponized version stamps, is another matter entirely.

I'm not surprised you'd rather gloat about the funny picture than address what happens when XT is led down our garden path, into premature aggression and subsequent disaster.   Grin


Using the analogy (throwing the hockey stick) was apt before its time.

Core is using XT's own strength (mob rule popularity contests) to thwart its attack.

That's elegant judo, not hockey violence.   Cool

You foresee multi petahash mining concerns running a client posing as XT just to give MP an orgasm, I don't see it happening that way.
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August 17, 2015, 04:32:22 AM
 #30854

Quote
Hearn has in the past been a consistent advocate for having more Bitcoin users pushed onto less reliable SPV wallets instead of fully validating Bitcoin nodes, a move that is dangerous in an environment with substantially larger blocks and a higher orphaned block rate. The use of SPV wallets clearly and plainly increases the risk of users being duped by double spend attacks during common one to three block forks triggered by orphaned blocks, events which would likely become far more common as increasingly large block sizes and block verification times make XTCoin security measurably weaker than that of Bitcoin.

http://qntra.net/2015/08/hearn-releases-code-to-potentially-fork-xtc-from-bitcoin/

Maybe XT should be renamed SPVcoin? Any takers?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 04:37:34 AM
 #30855

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 04:39:20 AM
 #30856

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

Yeah, the real SN would definitely invoke Barack Obama. Confirmed
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August 17, 2015, 04:44:54 AM
 #30857

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

Yeah, the real SN would definitely invoke Barack Obama. Confirmed

I don't see why he wouldn't? Care to explain your logic? Because you didn't "portray him" that way?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 17, 2015, 04:58:11 AM
 #30858

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

Yeah, the real SN would definitely invoke Barack Obama. Confirmed

I don't see why he wouldn't? Care to explain your logic? Because you didn't "portray him" that way?

I didn't "perceive" him that way? Maybe. He always rose above the political BS and focused on the bolts.

And any message delivered in this manner, under the name "Satoshi Nakamoto"... is an ad verecundiam, regardless of whether you are able to contort your mind to believe otherwise. 
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August 17, 2015, 05:04:17 AM
 #30859

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

Yeah, the real SN would definitely invoke Barack Obama Alistair Darling, Chancellor of the Exchequer. Confirmed

Fixed your comment by removing the butthurt.   Wink


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August 17, 2015, 05:06:55 AM
 #30860

About the Satoshi comment:

Quote
Zeke says:
It's a brilliant comment, made even better by its plausible deniability. If the author really is SN, and he signed it to prove authorship, then he would be invoking personal authority rather than reason to influence the debate. And would also completely undermine even a reformed Gavin, b/c now we would know that SN is waiting in the wings to offer divine guidance. Instead, we have a comment that points out with convincing reasoning that regardless of originalist doctrine, SN's early opinions are not canonical. Furthermore, it is equally plausible that a present-day SN would disagree with the approach of coercing a hard-fork to XT.

When you think about it, if Satoshi really had something to say that is exactly how he would do it.

Of course the Gavinistas are never going to accept even the slightest possibility it is him seeing the butthurt induced by his comments.

Yeah, the real SN would definitely invoke Barack Obama. Confirmed

I don't see why he wouldn't? Care to explain your logic? Because you didn't "portray him" that way?

I didn't "perceive" him that way? Maybe. He always rose above the political BS and focused on the bolts.

And any message delivered in this manner, under the name "Satoshi Nakamoto"... is an ad verecundiam, regardless of whether you are able to contort your mind to believe otherwise.  

See it appears you either didn't read the post I mentioned or "perceive" Satoshi as a complete idiot.

I for one think he's absolutely smart and perfectly conscious that the post would create confusion and that most would simply disregard it as just another scammer using an old, hacked satoshi email account.

If we believe this to be true then it should follow that being the wise guy he is, he wouldn't sign the message and "confirm" his identity so that the nature of his message would shine through his action : let ideas stand on their own and stop idolizing idiots. You could say he "walked the walk" exactly to avoid "ad verecundiam".

I'm not suggesting I actually believe 100% it was him. "Only god knows".

Simply proposing it isn't out of character or a particular stretch of the mind.   

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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