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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2022643 times)
brg444
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August 12, 2015, 07:18:45 AM
 #30241

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

This was indeed pointed out to him by me and several others.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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smooth
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August 12, 2015, 07:21:06 AM
 #30242

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

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August 12, 2015, 07:40:01 AM
 #30243

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

I don't think anyone believes that was their original business plan.

The original plan may have been to do something similar with sidechains or another undisclosed layer 2 system of their own design. It is even possible their original business plan was simply to be Red Hat of Linux, as gmaxwell claimed. That is, hire key developers in the space and provide value-added packaging and services.

None of that really matters if their business plan is something different now, which is entirely possible.

It is also possible that they did know about LN, as it is alleged to have been in development for quite a while.

Finally I think it is possible there simply was no real "business" plan, and the investors were in large part ideologically motivated or willing to take flyer handing money to a bunch of smart guys in a promising niche.

1. Scale Bitcoin
2. Huh
3. Profit


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Natalia_AnatolioPAMM
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August 12, 2015, 07:47:01 AM
 #30244


China has done it again.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33875061

 "This is now the biggest two-day lowering of the yuan's rate against the dollar in more than two decades. "


also at ZH http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/yuan-collapses-stocks-slide-credit-risk-hits-2-year-high-after-china-devalues-curren

top comment

'It's as if millions of carry traders screamed out in terror...and were suddenly silenced.' Shocked

That's scaring indeed. Who knows when will it stop falling and what will lead to
Zarathustra
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August 12, 2015, 08:51:05 AM
 #30245


But no one here claimed that post had been censored.  Huh


At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzetoj

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzbzuh

"censored post ?"

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.
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August 12, 2015, 09:00:48 AM
 #30246

At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

"Spare us". Again? Spare me your collectivist 'us'-mentality! I have nothing to do with your us'ers.

"Us" obviously refers to myself, and the mods being called "the epitome of authoritarian" and "ready for book burnings."

Why would you possibly imagine *you* have anything to do with my post?  Nobody cares what you think, much less what you are or not spared.   Cheesy


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Erdogan
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August 12, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
 #30247

Some serious vote manipulation going on in the Blockstream Business Plan thread.

I notice the OP there isn't adressing the issue that when Blockstream received their funding, LN wasn't yet around, so it's a bit hard to see how their business plan that got them 21 million USD could have relied on pushing people towards LN...

Not hard at all. Update the business plan.

Zangelbert Bingledack
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August 12, 2015, 10:05:15 AM
 #30248

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

Agreed that crisis will force consensus. It's just that XT is part of that process, whether it serves the purpose of the new Bitcoin implementation or just the pressure that gets Core in gear.
awemany
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August 12, 2015, 10:05:44 AM
 #30249

It is resolved. We won. The devil lost.


Is this referring to the blocksize debate? I wouldn't call victory yet. We have pretty good chances to end the blockade and hijacking, but there is still a lot of convincing to do!

I'll say we won when we have a thousand blocks or so on the high block limit chain.
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August 12, 2015, 12:35:30 PM
 #30250

Another Lightning implementation effort appears:

http://bitcoinist.net/hashplex-exclusive-interview-lightning-hub-open-source-release/
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August 12, 2015, 12:44:04 PM
 #30251

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

Are you suggesting they are not?


I'm suggesting that it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let bitcoin scale. Let LN/Sidechains succeed on merit.

http://haschinabannedbitcoin.com
"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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August 12, 2015, 12:45:39 PM
 #30252

Gold up.  Cypherdoc collapsing.

brg444
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August 12, 2015, 12:57:32 PM
 #30253

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

Are you suggesting they are not?


I'm suggesting that it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let bitcoin scale. Let LN/Sidechains succeed on merit.

Have we not yet come to an agreement that raising the block size is not exactly a scaling solution?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
HeliKopterBen
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August 12, 2015, 01:04:39 PM
 #30254

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

More theoretical and idealogical bs

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
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August 12, 2015, 01:10:10 PM
 #30255

You are also aware that lightning is an open source project right? Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Being an open source project says next to nothing about lock-ins that are achieved by network effects on related services.

You mean like how Red Hat has a lock-in on Linux related services, or Oracle with Java?

Oh wait...maybe you meant like MyMonero.com?   Cheesy

All three of those are valid examples. All three likely have weaker network effects than lightning nodes. MyMonero has
weakest network effects though. It doesn't have a thicket of related and dependent products to resist substitution.

That's all arguable certainly.

Seems the centralization/network effect of lightning nodes might not hold if Rusty gets his way...



https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/ctzz2jz

That's funny. I have a Cripplecoiner arguing with me right  now about how my funding  of multiple nodes does not increase decentralization as I am a single point of failure. Yet here we have the architects of LN wanting a single client to open 5 separate payment channels to do just that.

Oh the hypocrisy!
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August 12, 2015, 01:14:24 PM
 #30256

Gold collapses in 5 (Elliott-) waves. At the moment probably wave II up in progress:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11923412#msg11923412
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August 12, 2015, 01:17:14 PM
 #30257

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

Are you suggesting they are not?


I'm suggesting that it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let bitcoin scale. Let LN/Sidechains succeed on merit.

Have we not yet come to an agreement that raising the block size is not exactly a scaling solution?

Not at all. From the current situation, we can scale up probably 1000 x or more with larger blocks. I call that scaling.

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August 12, 2015, 01:27:26 PM
 #30258


That's funny. I have a Cripplecoiner arguing with me right  now about how my funding  of multiple nodes does not increase decentralization as I am a single point of failure. Yet here we have the architects of LN wanting a single client to open 5 separate payment channels to do just that.

Oh the hypocrisy!

As usual you are clearly lost on the concept and the technology. But carry on thinking whatever brain turd you come up with makes any sense!

PS. It doesn't and you are so confused once again.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 12, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
 #30259

This needs to be read by every doomsayers here:

https://medium.com/@allenpiscitello/there-is-no-crisis-20b58e14b09c

More theoretical and idealogical bs

Such arguments! Much convincing! 

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 12, 2015, 01:37:40 PM
 #30260

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

Are you suggesting they are not?


I'm suggesting that it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let bitcoin scale. Let LN/Sidechains succeed on merit.

Have we not yet come to an agreement that raising the block size is not exactly a scaling solution?

Have we not yet come to an agreement that LN/Sidechains are not a scaling solution *without bigger blocks*


http://haschinabannedbitcoin.com
"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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