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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011313 times)
Erdogan
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August 16, 2015, 12:15:28 AM
 #30641

[..]

In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

[...]

So you suggest the Elder Whales will buy up bitcoins from their stash of xtcoins? Just like a central bank would do? Well that is going to be interesting. But there is a risk of losing it all, so I would not bet that it plays out that way.


What are you smoking, crack?  Elder Whales exercising their GavinCoin Short option is nothing like what central banks do.  Your confused, sketchy understanding of the situation continues to surprise and baffle me with its surreal assumptions and bizarre conclusions.   Cheesy

So how do they defend the cripplecoin. Pitchforks?


This is one way to defend Bitcoin from XTcoin: The GavinCoin Short.

That's FTLDR.


Are you smoking crack? It's like a few paragraphs.

It's about 20 pagedowns on my screen. The word short is nowhere to be found. What do you take me for? It is an insult. Not that I care. Anyway it is UFTLDR. (Utterly fucking too long, didn't read).



lol only with a crack-addled attention span...
I'm on an iPhone in landscape mode and the post itself is 3-4 page downs.

Since you are that persevering; found on a link on that page:

"The fate of this fork will be exactly the fate of all attempted forks to date : the savvy Bitcoin holders will sell their fake-Bitcoins on the fake network, while double-spending (and thus invalidating) their sale on the actual network, thereby keeping their actual Bitcoin safe.iv The proceeds of this "victimless"v crime will be used to purchase more legitimate Bitcoins on the legitimate network, thus draining away value from the holders of Bitcoin fakes, into the pockets of the legitimate Bitcoin holders."

How is this not selling gavincoin and buying cripplecoin?

Still the link provided had nothing but svada, the above text is from a link in the link.


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August 16, 2015, 12:15:50 AM
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It feels to me like a major shift occurred today.  It was caused in part by Gavin and Mike completing the patch to support larger block sizes, but I think it was actually caused more so by a foolish move made on the battlefield.  In an act of desperation, the small blockers threw their swords.  

What do I mean by "throwing one's sword?"  I'll have to explain it with a story about my childhood…

...The town I grew up in (about an hour outside of Vancouver) seemed perfectly normal to me as a kid, but when I look back now, it was actually pretty rough.  It was home to hundreds of Hell's Angels and it served as a sort of distribution center in the drug trade.  

Anyways, there were lots of fights between groups of boys when I was growing up.  I was never really a part of it, but I was fascinated and paid attention to the dynamics of the process.  One strange behaviour I witnessed was that the last act of the losing faction of boys was always to throw their weapons.  It was such a stupid thing to do, because the baseball bat or hockey stick would rarely hit the intended target, and in the few times that it did, it would be travelling at such a reduced velocity that the impact imparted to the victim was superficial at best.  

And then the weaponless boys would get their butts kicked.

It turns out that this is a sort of a natural human reaction to severe stress.  As a last resort, we throw whatever we have left and hope for the best.  In the movies, it always works; in real life, the opposite is true.  

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons.  

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Meanwhile you can have a look here at the reaction of actual "small blockers" : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

hint : not a care in the world

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 12:16:49 AM
 #30643

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

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August 16, 2015, 12:18:56 AM
 #30644

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

Doesn't change anything. You people's insistance on misrepresentating, or outright ignoring, your "enemy",their count and their resources is what may lead you to your downfall.

I expect a smart guy like you to recognize the small, yet powerful and knowledgeable minority that is above or simply don't have time for the childish arguments and posturing of reddit and the seemingly one sided debates occuring on every forums of discussion.

Reddit mob making a lot of noise doesn't make their opinion more valuable

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 12:30:24 AM
 #30645

It feels to me like a major shift occurred today.

That's probably just gas.  Are you getting enough fiber in your diet?


Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons.  

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."



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Monero
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August 16, 2015, 12:36:08 AM
 #30646

[..]

In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

[...]

So you suggest the Elder Whales will buy up bitcoins from their stash of xtcoins? Just like a central bank would do? Well that is going to be interesting. But there is a risk of losing it all, so I would not bet that it plays out that way.


What are you smoking, crack?  Elder Whales exercising their GavinCoin Short option is nothing like what central banks do.  Your confused, sketchy understanding of the situation continues to surprise and baffle me with its surreal assumptions and bizarre conclusions.   Cheesy

So how do they defend the cripplecoin. Pitchforks?


This is one way to defend Bitcoin from XTcoin: The GavinCoin Short.

That's FTLDR.


Are you smoking crack? It's like a few paragraphs.

It's about 20 pagedowns on my screen. The word short is nowhere to be found. What do you take me for? It is an insult. Not that I care. Anyway it is UFTLDR. (Utterly fucking too long, didn't read).



lol only with a crack-addled attention span...
I'm on an iPhone in landscape mode and the post itself is 3-4 page downs.

Since you are that persevering; found on a link on that page:

"The fate of this fork will be exactly the fate of all attempted forks to date : the savvy Bitcoin holders will sell their fake-Bitcoins on the fake network, while double-spending (and thus invalidating) their sale on the actual network, thereby keeping their actual Bitcoin safe.iv The proceeds of this "victimless"v crime will be used to purchase more legitimate Bitcoins on the legitimate network, thus draining away value from the holders of Bitcoin fakes, into the pockets of the legitimate Bitcoin holders."

How is this not selling gavincoin and buying cripplecoin?

Still the link provided had nothing but svada, the above text is from a link in the link.



txs are reflected from the original chain to the forked chain, but not necessarily vice versa so unless there is full consensus on the fork to antiquate the original chain there is risk of attack

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August 16, 2015, 12:41:57 AM
 #30647

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

Doesn't change anything. You people's insistance on misrepresentating, or outright ignoring, your "enemy",their count and their resources is what may lead you to your downfall.

I expect a smart guy like you to recognize the small, yet powerful and knowledgeable minority that is above or simply don't have time for the childish arguments and posturing of reddit and the seemingly one sided debates occuring on every forums of discussion.

Reddit mob making a lot of noise doesn't make their opinion more valuable
There is no enemy, just a few egos trying to pick a fight. The facts are there for everyone to review, for the lessor people they can follow loud egos where ever they are.

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August 16, 2015, 12:43:00 AM
 #30648

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

Doesn't change anything. You people's insistance on misrepresentating, or outright ignoring, your "enemy",their count and their resources is what may lead you to your downfall.

I expect a smart guy like you to recognize the small, yet powerful and knowledgeable minority that is above or simply don't have time for the childish arguments and posturing of reddit and the seemingly one sided debates occuring on every forums of discussion.

Reddit mob making a lot of noise doesn't make their opinion more valuable

I'm getting interested to know what planet you are living on. Is it one of those Earth II's recently found by NASA, or is it a strange alternate reality that you inhabit where economics works in reverse, and the smaller a minority is the more it can rightfully claim the moral and intellectual high ground regardless of any other opinions?

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August 16, 2015, 12:44:56 AM
 #30649

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons.  

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."



Bitcoin is health in those places, let's hope you don't use the current centralized controlled development infrastructure to destroy it.

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August 16, 2015, 12:46:16 AM
 #30650

This is great fun for sure!

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August 16, 2015, 12:48:50 AM
 #30651

Gigaboys, cue up here!

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August 16, 2015, 12:52:07 AM
 #30652

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

Doesn't change anything. You people's insistance on misrepresentating, or outright ignoring, your "enemy",their count and their resources is what may lead you to your downfall.

I expect a smart guy like you to recognize the small, yet powerful and knowledgeable minority that is above or simply don't have time for the childish arguments and posturing of reddit and the seemingly one sided debates occuring on every forums of discussion.

Reddit mob making a lot of noise doesn't make their opinion more valuable
There is no enemy, just a few egos trying to pick a fight. The facts are there for everyone to review, for the lessor people they can follow loud egos where ever they are.

I supposed you have censused every Bitcoin owner to be able to present that as fact?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 12:56:50 AM
 #30653

BTW: Just curious, and maybe our BIP is not needed anyways, but did you have a look at my comment with regards to not-quite hard forking?

Sorry, I spent most the day watching submissions and comments get deleted from /r/bitcoin.

I think a BIP (or something like it) is very much needed.  We have to get people to stop thinking about "Bitcoin Core" versus "Bitcoin XT," and just thinking in terms of "do I want to run software that supports bigger blocks?"  In that respect, our proposal is ideal because we could show how it would be compatible with both Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin XT.  The node operator just needs to set his block size limit to, say, 32 MB, and his node will always follow the longest proof-of-work chain composed of valid transactions.  

Moreover, we don't need 75% of the hash power to run Bitcoin XT to activate BIP101.  Instead, we need 75% of the hash power to set that flag bit.  That flag bit could be set with a patched version of Core, or by running the version of Bitcoin that we're proposing.

To answer your question about the not-quite-a-hard-fork idea, I think it's a great!  But like you said earlier, simple is better.  We need to be clear that all we're really proposing is to move the block size limit from the consensus layer to the transport layer.  

The stuff like my signalling idea and your "BSL governor" idea don't need strict consensus.  There could be several competing implementation with various degrees of interoperability.  It would still work fine.  

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August 16, 2015, 12:56:56 AM
 #30654

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons. 

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."

You have a point somewhat but it is also fair to say that harping on the admittedly imprecise use of the word censorship isn't the point. When people make the censorship objection, you can reasonably interpret their concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating the topic. Either way the substance is the same.

Anyway, I noticed something interesting today. If you read the white paper.

1. There is nothing about block size. According to the white paper, any block (with no reference to size) is valid if the contained transactions are valid.

2. The determination of validity is made by miners, expressed by mining on top of it.

As a corollary of #2, users who see a longest chain they believe to be invalid should simply be fixing/upgrading their software, not claiming that miners are misbehaving.

While perhaps a "good idea", the concept of a longest valid chain as distinct from the longest chain is not part of the design.

Whether this is a good idea is another question entirely, but it seems to me the small block side has skipped a step in their argument.


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August 16, 2015, 01:03:40 AM
 #30655

TIL theymos represents and speak for all "small blockers"

Sorry, you quoted my text before I changed it to "r/bitcoin mods" to be more accurate.

Doesn't change anything. You people's insistance on misrepresentating, or outright ignoring, your "enemy",their count and their resources is what may lead you to your downfall.

I expect a smart guy like you to recognize the small, yet powerful and knowledgeable minority that is above or simply don't have time for the childish arguments and posturing of reddit and the seemingly one sided debates occuring on every forums of discussion.

Reddit mob making a lot of noise doesn't make their opinion more valuable

I'm getting interested to know what planet you are living on. Is it one of those Earth II's recently found by NASA, or is it a strange alternate reality that you inhabit where economics works in reverse, and the smaller a minority is the more it can rightfully claim the moral and intellectual high ground regardless of any other opinions?

I live in a place where we are mostly careful about pretending that our own little circlejerk is a just representation of what the world looks like.

The problem in your little zanity is you are convinced that reddit and this forum is a reasonable approximation of the community's opinion.

The barriers of entry here and there being extremely low, everyone and their sheep can voice their "opinion" and claim it to be as valuable as any others when realistically there couldn't be anything further from the truth.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 16, 2015, 01:06:32 AM
 #30656

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons.  

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."

You have a point somewhat but it is also fair to say that harping on the admittedly imprecise use of the word censorship isn't the point. When people make the censorship objection, you can reasonably interpret their concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating the topic. Either way the substance is the same.

Anyway, I noticed something interesting today. If you read the white paper.

1. There is nothing about block size. According to the white paper, any block of any size is valid if the contained transactions are valid.

2. The determination of validity is made by miners, expressed by mining on top of it.

As a corollary of #2, users who see a longest chain they believe to be invalid should simply be fixing/upgrading their software, not claiming that miners are misbehaving.

While perhaps a "good idea", the concept of a longest valid chain as distinct from the longest chain is not part of the design.

Whether this is a good idea is another question entirely, but it seems to me the small block side has skipped a step in their argument.

Very nice.  Is it fair then to say:

   "Bitcoin is the longest proof-of-work chain composed of valid transactions"

This is a subtle difference from the phrase that certain personas employ to label Bitcoin-XT and other larger-block clients as "alt-coins":

  "Bitcoin is the longest proof-of-work valid chain"


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August 16, 2015, 01:07:35 AM
 #30657

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons. 

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."

You have a point somewhat but it is also fair to say that harping on the admittedly imprecise use of the word censorship isn't the point. When people make the censorship objection, you can reasonably interpret their concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating the topic. Either way the substance is the same.

Anyway, I noticed something interesting today. If you read the white paper.

1. There is nothing about block size. According to the white paper, any block of any size is valid if the contained transactions are valid.

2. The determination of validity is made by miners, expressed by mining on top of it.

As a corollary of #2, users who see a longest chain they believe to be invalid should simply be fixing/upgrading their software, not claiming that miners are misbehaving.

While perhaps a "good idea", the concept of a longest valid chain as distinct from the longest chain is not part of the design.

Whether this is a good idea is another question entirely, but it seems to me the small block side has skipped a step in their argument.

Very nice.  Is it fair then to say:

   "Bitcoin is the longest proof-of-work chain composed of valid transactions"

This is a subtle difference from the phrase that certain personas employ to label Bitcoin-XT and other larger-block clients as an "alt-coin":

  "Bitcoin is the longest proof-of-work valid chain"

According to the original design I believe so. Furthermore, I believe that a correct interoperation of the second phrase according to the original design is identical to the first, because the determination of validity is made by miners.
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August 16, 2015, 01:28:31 AM
 #30658

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons. 

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."

You have a point somewhat but it is also fair to say that harping on the admittedly imprecise use of the word censorship isn't the point. When people make the censorship objection, you can reasonably interpret their concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating the topic. Either way the substance is the same.

Being moderated on a private forum is NOTHING like being suppressed by censorship.  What a nasty, horrible lie!  Why don't you just track down some Chinese dissidents and shit on their faces?  Either way the [trivializing, disrespectful] substance is the same.   Wink

What you gloss over as "imprecise use of the word censorship" isn't accidental or mere ignorance.  It is a calculated attack on the mods' integrity (IE shaming), and a purposeful re-framing so as to paint them as victimizing brave supporters of free speech ("zomg it's a human right!!!").

As to their (and now your) "concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating" let us note that alt-coin discussion is explicitly subject to certain time/place restrictions by the forum/sub rules.  If you break those rules, expect to be moderated.  If you persist despite moderation, expect to be banned.  Duh!  This isn't hard, except when thou doth protest too much.

It is not honest to, by visitation and participation, implicitly agree with the existing moderation rules and their arbiters (the mods), but then act SHOCKED when playing the Censorship Card fails to win a dispute over/with them.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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August 16, 2015, 01:35:24 AM
 #30659

Of course the weapon of a mod is censorship.  Today was the day that the mods at /r/bitcoin threw their weapons. 

Moderation is not censorship.  Can't you win the argument based on facts and logic, without resorting to cheap self-pitying melodrama?

Reddit and bitcointalk are not public places where free speech applies.

I'd love to send you delicate snowflakes to a place with real censorship and watch you beg to be allowed to return to theymos' "epitome of authoritarianism."

You have a point somewhat but it is also fair to say that harping on the admittedly imprecise use of the word censorship isn't the point. When people make the censorship objection, you can reasonably interpret their concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating the topic. Either way the substance is the same.

Being moderated on a private forum is NOTHING like being suppressed by censorship.  What a nasty, horrible lie!  Why don't you just track down some Chinese dissidents and shit on their faces?  Either way the [trivializing, disrespectful] substance is the same.   Wink

What you gloss over as "imprecise use of the word censorship" isn't accidental or mere ignorance.  It is a calculated attack on the mods' integrity (IE shaming), and a purposeful re-framing so as to paint them as victimizing brave supporters of free speech ("zomg it's a human right!!!").
el
As to their (and now your) "concern as being over the subreddit banning or even over-aggressively moderating" let us note that alt-coin discussion is explicitly subject to certain time/place restrictions by the forum/sub rules.  If you break those rules, expect to be moderated.  If you persist despite moderation, expect to be banned.  Duh!  This isn't hard, except when thou doth protest too much.

It is not honest to, by visitation and participation, implicitly agree with the existing moderation rules and their arbiters (the mods), but then act SHOCKED when playing the Censorship Card fails to win a dispute over/with them.

Sure I agree with you that an equivalence between reddit and repressive governments is absurd and offensive, I'm just not sure the mis-usage is always as calculated as you suggest. A lot of people are just somewhat sloppy and ignorant in their use of language. I know I am sometimes guilty of that.

In this case I also disagree with the interpretation of the moderation rules, since Bitcoin-XT even if it is and altcoin, certainly is also highly relevant to Bitcoin itself. That's a distinction that eliminates most altcoin discussion generally but should also allow some. For example when discussing Bitcoin's fungibility and privacy one might draw contrasts between Bitcoin and Monero. Likewise discussing issues that exist between Bitcoin and Bitcoin-XT are also relevant.
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August 16, 2015, 01:50:40 AM
 #30660

I agree with you that an equivalence between reddit and repressive governments is absurd and offensive, I'm just not sure the mis-usage is always as calculated as you suggest. A lot of people are just somewhat sloppy and ignorant in their use of language. I know I am sometimes guilty of that.

In this case I also disagree with the interpretation of the moderation rules, since Bitcoin-XT even if it is and altcoin, certainly is also highly relevant to Bitcoin itself. That's a distinction that eliminates most altcoin discussion generally but should also allow some. For example when discussing Bitcoin's fungibility and privacy one might draw contrasts between Bitcoin and Monero. Likewise discussing issues that exist between Bitcoin and Bitcoin-XT are also relevant.


The absurdity and offensiveness exists regardless of the sources' intentions.  The occasional cynical calculation only compounds the offense.

Once the difference has been explained to them, people are responsible for using the proper term.  What do you make of those who refuse to acknowledge the distinction (and why it's important), to justify there persistence in being sloppy and ignorant?

In this case, your peanut gallery "interpretation of the moderation rules" is not relevant, because you and the Godwinning poo-flingers are not mods, admins, or site owners.

If you can't abide (as The Dude should) by theymos' decision wrt XT, there are plenty of other forums to patronize.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
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