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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1980628 times)
cypherdoc
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August 11, 2015, 10:41:22 PM
 #30201

this sounds exactly like something i'd say:

The Blockstream Business Plan (self.Bitcoin)-


what is really going on here is that Blockstream wants to shift the long term miner tx fees away from the mainchain into SC & LN tx fees paid to their federated nodes, LN gateways, & consulting fees for SC's.  
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iCEBREAKER
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August 11, 2015, 10:45:06 PM
 #30202

You're referring to a totally different post that was deleted by the author (the one about the Blockstream Business Plan). 

I referred to a post which was actually on-topic (ie, about Bitcoin and not some troll fork alt) being immediately and incorrectly regarded as "censored" when in fact the author deleted it.

Of course posts about alts are moderated in r/Bitcoin.  Duh!

You do know the difference between moderation and censorship, right?

Or are you one of the 'thermos is the epitome of authoritarianism and ready to start book burnings' drama queens busily sewing gold coins into the linings of their coats?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
cypherdoc
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August 11, 2015, 10:47:34 PM
 #30203

You're referring to a totally different post that was deleted by the author (the one about the Blockstream Business Plan). 

I referred to a post which was actually on-topic (ie, about Bitcoin and not some troll fork alt) being immediately and incorrectly regarded as "censored" when in fact the author deleted it.

Of course posts about alts are moderated in r/Bitcoin.  Duh!

You do know the difference between moderation and censorship, right?

Or are you one of the 'thermos is the epitome of authoritarianism and ready to start book burnings' drama queens busily sewing gold coins into the linings of their coats?

iCEBLOW translation:  "i am one greedy bastard!"
Peter R
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August 11, 2015, 10:52:36 PM
 #30204

You're referring to a totally different post that was deleted by the author (the one about the Blockstream Business Plan).  

I referred to a post which was actually on-topic (ie, about Bitcoin and not some troll fork alt) being immediately and incorrectly regarded as "censored" when in fact the author deleted it.

But no one here claimed that post had been censored.  Huh

These were the censored post:

It appears now that the reddit post proving censorship of the now "uncensored" reddit post (44% of hash power supports 8 MB) has itself been censored:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/

As you can clearly see, they have nothing to do the the "Blockstream Business Plan" (the post that was deleted by the author).  

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August 11, 2015, 11:05:18 PM
 #30205


But no one here claimed that post had been censored.  Huh


At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzetoj

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzbzuh

"censored post ?"

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
Adrian-x
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August 11, 2015, 11:15:53 PM
 #30206

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

I think it is obvious that:
 a) without new technologies we will need 24 GB blocks.  ( 10 billion transactions per/day )
 b) current technology cannot handle 24 GB blocks (and will not handle any time soon)
 c) with SC and LN bitcoin can stay decentralized and handle billions of TPS using small blocks  (maybe bigger than 1MB but we are far from reaching limits of 1 MB blocks)

so why not let the blockchain scale and have the free market adopt your proposed SC and LN solutions as needed?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
cypherdoc
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August 11, 2015, 11:18:59 PM
 #30207

Right, that would make sense until you realise in both cases (lightning and sidechains) these technologies need bigger blocks to scale.
But before they need to scale, they just might need some help convincing potential users they are even necessary at all.

I think it is obvious that:
 a) without new technologies we will need 24 GB blocks.  ( 10 billion transactions per/day )
 b) current technology cannot handle 24 GB blocks (and will not handle any time soon)
 c) with SC and LN bitcoin can stay decentralized and handle billions of TPS using small blocks  (maybe bigger than 1MB but we are far from reaching limits of 1 MB blocks)

so why not let the blockchain scale and have the free market adopt your proposed SC and LN solutions as needed?

i can do even one better with a proposal i've made a number of times already.

lift the block cap altogether and we'll give them the spvp AND LN soft forks we know they desire and we'll see which one wins the market over.
Adrian-x
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August 11, 2015, 11:29:28 PM
 #30208

That's not what it means to show your work.

I'll really not waste my time to prove obvious. :-) .. this mean I'll not print you book in leather with golden letters.

"Current technology cannot handle 24 GB blocks (and will not any time soon)" :-)

that may be correct but it's not a reason to limit to 1MB and avoid a block size to the 8MB, or is it?
24GB blocks would obviously show demand with off chain solutions, I suspect you think we will never get there and want to squeeze bitcoin for what its worth to make off-chain solutions viable. 

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Erdogan
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August 11, 2015, 11:31:55 PM
 #30209


But no one here claimed that post had been censored.  Huh


At least two people incorrectly assumed and falsely claimed the on-topic Blockstream business plan post had been removed by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzetoj

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gm3ww/this_thread_was_removedhidden_from_front_page/ctzbzuh

"censored post ?"

Moderation of off-topic posts is not censorship.  Censorship is done by governments, moderation is done by mods.  Duh!

Spare us the wailing about "censored posts" "authoritarianism" and "book burnings."  It just makes you look like a child who never heard of Godwin.

You have not served your masters well by refraining from real discussion and instead produce a continous stream of poison and bile.

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August 11, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
 #30210

Chinese bourses now higher. Could it be that they expect lower renminbi in the future? I look forward to the day when the mainstreem looks to bitcoin pricing of the different currencies to decide their real value.

brg444
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August 11, 2015, 11:36:32 PM
 #30211

Chinese bourses now higher. Could it be that they expect lower renminbi in the future? I look forward to the day when the mainstreem looks to bitcoin pricing of the different currencies to decide their real value.


Nop, it's the new block size consensus making ripples!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
smooth
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August 11, 2015, 11:37:33 PM
 #30212

this sounds exactly like something i'd say:
The Blockstream Business Plan (self.Bitcoin)
submitted an hour ago * by Celean

And if this is true Blockstream is making a HUGE mistake.  I don't think many people are doing multiple txns per day, every day right now.  I don't even think many people do 1 txn per week.  I doubt that people will be willing to sequester coins into the LN for significant periods (no I have no facts to back up this intuition).  

So I don't think that the lightning network solves the problem we have today which is getting people to do their FIRST txn (expand the network) and then getting them to use it periodically (use encourages merchants to accept it).

Once people are using BTC a couple times per day, LN is becomes very valuable.  Its actually WORSE if you do just one txn in a payment channel (it takes 2 blockchain txns instead of 1).

So LN won't actually solve the typical use pattern today.  And if that pattern is forced to pay high fees people will choose other payment options stagnating Bitcoin growth (or best case transforms into low velocity digital gold) to the point where we'll never need the volumes LN can offer.

Bad argument.

The current network @ 5 tps can handle 432k transactions per day. If all the high volume stuff (most of which is tied to speculation in one form or another) were moved off that would be maybe 431k people on-ramping per day which is vastly more than is needed.
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August 11, 2015, 11:41:23 PM
 #30213

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gnem1/bip42_blockstream_guy_fundamentally_changed/?sort=confidence

I lolled  Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 11, 2015, 11:41:28 PM
 #30214

Chinese bourses now higher. Could it be that they expect lower renminbi in the future? I look forward to the day when the mainstreem looks to bitcoin pricing of the different currencies to decide their real value.


Nop, it's the new block size consensus making ripples!

I agree on that, but why has the spread changed from negative to positive?

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August 11, 2015, 11:52:54 PM
 #30215

Chinese bourses now higher. Could it be that they expect lower renminbi in the future? I look forward to the day when the mainstreem looks to bitcoin pricing of the different currencies to decide their real value.


Nop, it's the new block size consensus making ripples!

I agree on that, but why has the spread changed from negative to positive?


brg444:  "aw, c'mon Erdy.  i just wanted to be a King".
Mengerian
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August 11, 2015, 11:55:22 PM
 #30216

Quote
Anyways, to really understand what happens when R->0 I think we need to make a new model that takes into account what we just learned from your chart above (that miners won't necessarily be hashing all the time).

That seems to be an interesting point illustrating how the best interest of users and miners incentives could diverge.
For users, an empty block is always better than no block because it adds work to the chain and increases the security of the previous transactions.

Miners being financially motivated to shutdown for a period of time may not be an issue though.

Let's say that coinbase rewards are zero and miners live on fees only, and given a difficulty level it does not make sense to spend electricity until X number of fees/transactions are published.

In such a situation the difficulty will adjust/decrease until 10 minute blocks are restored. This might mean that after a block is found miners turn off for 5 minutes and only turn on after 5 minutes of fees are sent, but the difficulty will have adjusted so that miners are likely to find the next block 5 minutes after turning on. Yes this would also mean that if all miners keep running we would have 5 minute blocks, but they wouldn't be. And if they did then difficulty would adjust back up.

Since these issues develop slowly, I believe we would see that difficulty will continue to adjust to maintain 10 min blocks regardless of the financial incentives of the time.

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. Interesting to imagine a global network of bitcoin miners switching their hashing farms off and on as transactions build up.

Although we could expect the 10 minute block period to stay the same, it seems that the variance in the time between blocks should go down.

As you say, for the first few minutes after a block is published, very few miners would hash until a certain threshold of transaction fees could be reaped, so very few blocks would be found soon after the previous one. At the other end of the curve, the further beyond 10 minutes that a block is not found, we could expect miners to throw every last hash at the block, willing to burn lots of power to get the chance to collect the richer reward from blocks with more transactions than average. So the chances that a block takes much longer than 10 minutes would also decrease as miners frantically burn energy in the hopes of earning richer blocks full of fees.
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August 11, 2015, 11:59:24 PM
 #30217

The Fed Is Out Of Options, "QE Is All It Can Do Here" Art Cashin Predicts

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-11/fed-out-options-qe-all-it-can-do-here-art-cashin-predicts

tabnloz
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August 12, 2015, 12:05:31 AM
 #30218

Have you guys seen this, a DAC gambling/prediction engine built on top of Ethereum

http://reason.com/blog/2015/08/11/augur-gambling-prediction-ethereum

I think this is the first example of a true DAC out in the wild that I've seen. Bitcoin still hasn't even gotten started yet.

Edit: the reason folks are solid libertarians but most of them still don't get bitcoin.

I've been following Augur for a while. I think the prediction markets and oracles have lots of potential.
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August 12, 2015, 01:13:47 AM
 #30219

Quote
Anyways, to really understand what happens when R->0 I think we need to make a new model that takes into account what we just learned from your chart above (that miners won't necessarily be hashing all the time).

That seems to be an interesting point illustrating how the best interest of users and miners incentives could diverge.
For users, an empty block is always better than no block because it adds work to the chain and increases the security of the previous transactions.

Miners being financially motivated to shutdown for a period of time may not be an issue though.

Let's say that coinbase rewards are zero and miners live on fees only, and given a difficulty level it does not make sense to spend electricity until X number of fees/transactions are published.

In such a situation the difficulty will adjust/decrease until 10 minute blocks are restored. This might mean that after a block is found miners turn off for 5 minutes and only turn on after 5 minutes of fees are sent, but the difficulty will have adjusted so that miners are likely to find the next block 5 minutes after turning on. Yes this would also mean that if all miners keep running we would have 5 minute blocks, but they wouldn't be. And if they did then difficulty would adjust back up.

Since these issues develop slowly, I believe we would see that difficulty will continue to adjust to maintain 10 min blocks regardless of the financial incentives of the time.

Yeah, I was thinking about this too. Interesting to imagine a global network of bitcoin miners switching their hashing farms off and on as transactions build up.

Although we could expect the 10 minute block period to stay the same, it seems that the variance in the time between blocks should go down.

As you say, for the first few minutes after a block is published, very few miners would hash until a certain threshold of transaction fees could be reaped, so very few blocks would be found soon after the previous one. At the other end of the curve, the further beyond 10 minutes that a block is not found, we could expect miners to throw every last hash at the block, willing to burn lots of power to get the chance to collect the richer reward from blocks with more transactions than average. So the chances that a block takes much longer than 10 minutes would also decrease as miners frantically burn energy in the hopes of earning richer blocks full of fees.

Yes, I think you're right!  Very interesting.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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August 12, 2015, 01:32:43 AM
 #30220

...

Mengerian & Peter R

Yes, that does make sense.  When the amounts to be won from transactions are relatively higher, than I could certainly see:

"Fire that mother up, bitchez, pedal to the metal..."

As the reward amounts get bigger.  Kind of the way the PowerBall works, people really start buying when the jackpot reaches over $200,000,000.
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