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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1920627 times)
BlockaFett
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August 14, 2015, 05:06:54 PM
 #30501

well now i am just insulted.  i thought they spent all their time here?! Grin
I think I can speak for the majority of the Alt section when I say "we wish they did" Cheesy

Yes I'm sure they would. Because 90% or more of the Alt section are a bunch of lying, thieving, plagiarizing, instamining rip-off artists. They would very much like it people such iCE and myself were not there, so they could scam without being challenged over it.

In that sense you're a bit like 2 monks wending their way around the heathen Alt community trying to spread love in a chaotic world? /s

I would say more like 2 confidence tricksters trying to make a quick buck, with the minority of genuine alt communities trying to experiment with new tech providing the 'funding' for your valuable time.

Let's just leave it at that then, people have the information, they can decide if iCEBREAKER is and/or I am a confidence tricker trying to make a quick buck.

Meanwhile, please stop stalking me on this thread.

Not stalking - even if a few people start to wake up that you are an (admittedly smart) manipulator / confidence trickster, it's a post well spent.

Cheers

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BlockaFett
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August 14, 2015, 05:07:46 PM
 #30502

well now i am just insulted.  i thought they spent all their time here?! Grin
I think I can speak for the majority of the Alt section when I say "we wish they did" Cheesy

And I think I speak for the majority when I say keep this in the alt section, please.

Above was the last post from me.

Voted: Yes.

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August 14, 2015, 05:16:43 PM
 #30503

well now i am just insulted.  i thought they spent all their time here?! Grin
I think I can speak for the majority of the Alt section when I say "we wish they did" Cheesy

And I think I speak for the majority when I say keep this in the alt section, please.

Thats one thing we definitely have consensus on Smiley

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cypherdoc
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August 14, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
 #30504

this is what i think has happened with Blockstream:

 First they ignore it, then they attempt to fight it, and finally, when it becomes obvious that the fight can't be won, they try to buy it. We seem to be entering the third stage now, so those of us who see the long-term advantages of Bitcoin should be on our toes. Big banks have failed to discredit the idea, now the danger is that they will just buy it.


http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-how-my-views-and-the-currency-have-changed-during-the-last-year-cm508666
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August 14, 2015, 05:29:57 PM
 #30505

well now i am just insulted.  i thought they spent all their time here?! Grin
I think I can speak for the majority of the Alt section when I say "we wish they did" Cheesy
And I think I speak for the majority when I say keep this in the alt section, please.

For my part I often get valuable information out of various spats like this and I don't follow most of the other boards.  I don't follow the alt boards at all since I don't have an interest (financially) in any alts and not enough of an interest (intellectually) to justify they effort.  I temper my interpretation of what someone says based on my understanding of the person's affiliations and history.  I always have to be the consensus breaker I guess. 


cypherdoc
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August 14, 2015, 05:36:50 PM
 #30506

looks to me like this post by Mike has been taken down off the main page by mods:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3griiv/on_consensus_and_forks_by_mike_hearn/

Still there for me. If they were taking it this far, modding a heavily commented thread off the front page, that would generate some serious blowback, so I doubt they would.

hmm, back up for me too.  WTF?

/u/raisethelimit has been having all sorts of problems:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gsxqf/all_my_posts_are_currently_being_censored_this_is/cu19uva?context=3

This is the second time in the past few days it has looked like a possible internal squabble among the mods. Perhaps someone is hiding them and someone else is reinstating them.

i think we have a winner:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gz9ut/do_the_stress_tests_show_that_gavin_was_wrong/cu2udsv
justusranvier
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August 14, 2015, 05:41:42 PM
 #30507

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say
If everybody adopts a "do the opposite of anything Mike Hearn suggests" policy, then they've just shut their brain off and given complete control over their decision making to Mike Hearn.

It's a great way to achieve the opposite of the stated goal.
brg444
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August 14, 2015, 05:53:03 PM
 #30508

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say
If everybody adopts a "do the opposite of anything Mike Hearn suggests" policy, then they've just shut their brain off and given complete control over their decision making to Mike Hearn.

It's a great way to achieve the opposite of the stated goal.

Even if that would make any sense at all that's quite an interpretation of what the guy said...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Erdogan
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August 14, 2015, 06:23:00 PM
 #30509

this is what i think has happened with Blockstream:

 First they ignore it, then they attempt to fight it, and finally, when it becomes obvious that the fight can't be won, they try to buy it. We seem to be entering the third stage now, so those of us who see the long-term advantages of Bitcoin should be on our toes. Big banks have failed to discredit the idea, now the danger is that they will just buy it.


http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-how-my-views-and-the-currency-have-changed-during-the-last-year-cm508666

A lifestyle article. I don't care about lifestyle. I care about doing.
thezerg
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August 14, 2015, 06:37:03 PM
 #30510

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say
If everybody adopts a "do the opposite of anything Mike Hearn suggests" policy, then they've just shut their brain off and given complete control over their decision making to Mike Hearn.

It's a great way to achieve the opposite of the stated goal.

Even if that would make any sense at all that's quite an interpretation of what the guy said...

The point is: don't make this about people.

If you do, you fall into the same system that has doomed politics / representative democracies.  You vote for the guy who promises X but doesn't actually DO it.  Look at Greece for the most blatant recent example but it happens everywhere.

Stay focused on your opinion of the issues and you can be simultaneously allies and opposing with the same person depending on your respective opinion on ongoing debates.

For example, I disagreed with Cypherdoc about sidechains but agree with him about block size...

(although at this point I do have to recognize that while I still like sidechains technically, he was correct in his estimation of the conflict of interest they might create)

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August 14, 2015, 08:03:04 PM
 #30511

this is what i think has happened with Blockstream:

 First they ignore it, then they attempt to fight it, and finally, when it becomes obvious that the fight can't be won, they try to buy it. We seem to be entering the third stage now, so those of us who see the long-term advantages of Bitcoin should be on our toes. Big banks have failed to discredit the idea, now the danger is that they will just buy it.


http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-how-my-views-and-the-currency-have-changed-during-the-last-year-cm508666

LOLed , the part in bold is the goal, but a lot of bitcoiners dont seem to want to stay the course, there are lots of definitions for "it" the last part, but I envisioned "it" being BTC.

off to read that now :-)

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
smoothie
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August 14, 2015, 08:22:55 PM
 #30512

it seems the avg Bitcoiner can't bear to hear or even discuss "possible" messy scenarios as Mike is quite rightfully willing to do.

It's pretty clear that Mike doesn't understand what an economic majority means. If you have the economic majority, you don't need to enforce a "technical mess" to fix anything.

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say, unless they actually want to turn Bitcoin into something completely unrecognizable.

I'm not completely opposed to bigger blocks, but I am completely opposed to BitcoinXT and anything Hearn.

I am not in support of such an action where miners in china are essentially shunned by the "economic majority".

I tend to think the miners (all of them around the world) make up a big part of the economic majority as they help facilitate the transactions.

So if Hearn is thinking along the lines of doing that some day (I would not support it). The only way I support XT is through actual consensus, not forced consensus.

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August 14, 2015, 08:42:45 PM
 #30513

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say

Here's a pretty good indication of a shill, or at best someone who is disturbed and threatened by the idea of a 'free' cryoto-currency:  A person who has been around for a while and/or has paid a modicum of attention and does support Hearn's vision and projects.

If everybody adopts a "do the opposite of anything Mike Hearn suggests" policy, then they've just shut their brain off and given complete control over their decision making to Mike Hearn.

It's a great way to achieve the opposite of the stated goal.

When do you guys expect to use btcd as the reference implementation for XT?


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August 14, 2015, 08:53:40 PM
 #30514

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h01p2/how_is_the_bitcoin_community_supposed_to_build/

*poof* Top thread on the front page one moment, a few minutes later gone.

The subreddit has set a policy where not only is talking about alternative implementations banned, but apparently so is talking about the ban itself.

This reeks of desperation.
Peter R
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August 14, 2015, 09:21:54 PM
 #30515

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h01p2/how_is_the_bitcoin_community_supposed_to_build/

*poof* Top thread on the front page one moment, a few minutes later gone.

The subreddit has set a policy where not only is talking about alternative implementations banned, but apparently so is talking about the ban itself.

This reeks of desperation.

That post was by aminok (one of my favourite posters over there, actually).  It looks like he's now been banned:


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Odalv
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August 14, 2015, 09:29:07 PM
 #30516

here's further evidence the Reddit mods are steering the blocksize debate. they're letting this guy spam attack me with false allegations despite me reporting him.  same post about a dozen times:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gutfp/if_youre_not_running_a_node_youre_not_really/cu1x6fl


Yesterday you were complaining about mod "censorship" and today you are demanding the same mods censor posts you don't like.

it's a repetitive spam attack; over a dozen times the exact same slanderous post attempt at character assassination.  have you forgotten the case seems to be going nowhere and that i deny the allegations?

everybody gets it already. i am a BitcoinXT proponent and i am a threat to you Cripplecoiners.  the HF dispute has nothing to do with it as much as you'd like to tie the two together.

but of course, i wouldn't expect you to see the difference.

Hmm, "character assassination" doesn't mind you when you are using it against Blockstream and especially against  gmax.
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August 14, 2015, 09:44:53 PM
 #30517

here's further evidence the Reddit mods are steering the blocksize debate. they're letting this guy spam attack me with false allegations despite me reporting him.  same post about a dozen times:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gutfp/if_youre_not_running_a_node_youre_not_really/cu1x6fl


Yesterday you were complaining about mod "censorship" and today you are demanding the same mods censor posts you don't like.

it's a repetitive spam attack; over a dozen times the exact same slanderous post attempt at character assassination.  have you forgotten the case seems to be going nowhere and that i deny the allegations?

everybody gets it already. i am a BitcoinXT proponent and i am a threat to you Cripplecoiners.  the HF dispute has nothing to do with it as much as you'd like to tie the two together.

but of course, i wouldn't expect you to see the difference.

Hmm, "character assassination" doesn't mind you when you are using it against Blockstream and especially against  gmax.

*ding ding ding* we have a winner!

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 14, 2015, 09:45:38 PM
 #30518

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h01p2/how_is_the_bitcoin_community_supposed_to_build/

*poof* Top thread on the front page one moment, a few minutes later gone.

The subreddit has set a policy where not only is talking about alternative implementations banned, but apparently so is talking about the ban itself.

This reeks of desperation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h0lhn/theymos_as_the_administrator_of_rbitcoin/

thought this was funny but as aminok is banned now it's not showing up
brg444
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August 14, 2015, 09:55:51 PM
 #30519

I'm actually quite excited about this idea.  It has a sort of inevitable feel to it.

Yes. Since anyone can run any software they want to interact with the Bitcoin network, this idea does seem like a logical development.

It also seems like one of those counter-intuitive anti-fragility things, where the seeming chaos and instability at a micro level will actually lead to a more predictable and stable behaviour at the macro level.

If it became more common for individual nodes to be able to tweak consensus parameters, then I think that would actually lead to more predictable and stable consensus behaviour in the long run. The worst thing that can happen to a node operator is to fall out of consensus with the rest of the network, so individual node operators would be strongly incentivised to develop methods to ensure they can track the status of the network, and deal with any potential consensus forks.

As it stands now, consensus behaviour is based on the specific implementation details of Bitcoin Core. The software is not designed with the assumption that hard consensus forks are a likely event, and when they do happen nodes are not designed to handle it gracefully. The accidental hard form of March 2013 happened because of an obscure implementation detail in the Core software, and was only possible because the software monoculture created a "single point of failure". A more diverse implementation of consensus rules might result in more frequent consensus divergences and orphaned blocks, but each one would be non-catastrophic, and would lead toward a more stable and resilient network in the long run.

Great insight!

You bring up an interesting point: rather than viewing forks as something that must be avoided, let's view them as something inevitable and necessary for the evolution of Bitcoin, and then work to find ways to make convergence of consensus in the presence of forks as robust as possible.  

I think you're right that this "seeming chaos and instability at a micro level will actually lead to a more predictable and stable behaviour at the macro level."

ZB had brought up this point before and while it does sort of makes sense from an "antifragile" standpoint, I have a problem accepting it as a viable or desirable outcome.

On that point I believe this post from Alex Morcos is relevant:

Quote
What gives Bitcoin value aren't its technical merits but the fact that people believe in it.   The biggest risk here isn't that 20MB blocks will
be bad or that 1MB blocks will be bad, but that by forcing a hard fork that isn't nearly universally agreed upon, we will be damaging that belief.
  If I strongly believed some hard fork would be better for Bitcoin, say permanent inflation of 1% a year to fund mining, and I managed to convince 80% of users, miners, businesses and developers to go along with me, I would still vote against doing it.  Because that's not nearly universal agreement, and it changes what people chose to believe in without their consent. Forks should be hard, very hard.  And both sides should recognize that belief in the value of Bitcoin might be a fragile thing.
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34092527/

While I do understand your point about improving on the ability of the users to come to consensus, it seems a stretch to me to suggest that regular changes to the way Bitcoin operate can strengthen the trust people have in it. Rather we should strive to come to a point where the consensus critical code in Bitcoin is set in stone for eternity as it becomes harder and harder for an ever-growing ecosystem to come to consensus on a proposed change.

For that reason, I am wary and quite frankly curious of recent attempts by Hearn in particular to lessen the impact and the dangers of hard forks.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 14, 2015, 09:56:14 PM
 #30520


At this point I'd say just find a way to put the forks on the market and let's arbitrage it out. I will submit if a fork cannot gain the market cap advantage, and I suspect the small-blockers will likewise if Core loses it. Money talks.

I had a strange idea recently: what if we don't even bother with BIP100, BIP101, etc., or trying to come to "consensus" in some formal way.  What if, instead, we just make it very easy for node operators to adjust their block size limit.  Imagine a drop down menu where you can select "1 MB, 2 MB, 4 MB, 8 MB, … ."  What would happen?  

Personally, I'd just select some big block size limit, like 32 MB.  This way, I'd be guaranteed to follow the longest proof of work chain, regardless of what the effective block size limit becomes.  I'd expect many people to do the same thing.  Eventually, it becomes obvious that the economic majority is supporting a larger limit, and a brave miner publishes a block that is 1.1 MB is size.  We all witness that indeed that block got included into the longest proof of work chain, and then suddenly all miners are confident producing 1.1 MB blocks.  Thus, the effective block size limit slowly creeps upwards, as this process is repeated over and over as demand for block space grows.

TL/DR: maybe we don't need a strict definition for the max block size limit.

Indeed, a fixed block limit may not be necessary at all. A fair limit can be decided by the network, as a balance between the higher real costs of larger blocks ( more difficult hash target against fixed subsidy) and the reward of increased fees from a larger number of tx' s.  I think this would allow blocksize to grow, but requiring sufficient tx's to justify it.

This growth could be controlled within a set 'range' of difficulty, enforced by an algorithm in the code, the bounds of which are determined from such factors as a weighted average of the difficulty for the previous n blocks....

However, this doesn't deal with the issues raised by spam.

We must make money worse as a commodity if we wish to make it better as a medium of exchange
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