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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803494 times)
Zangelbert Bingledack
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August 14, 2015, 12:48:28 PM
 #30461

As sickpig suggested, it would be a recognition that the block size limit is not part of the consensus layer, but rather part of the transport layer.

i never did quite get this part.  can you explain?

Sure.  

Why do we have a consensus layer in the first place?  It is a way for us to agree on what transactions are valid and what transactions are invalid.  For example, we all agree that Alice shouldn't be able to move Bob's coins without a valid signature, and that Bob shouldn't be able to create coins out of thin air.  The consensus layer is about obvious stuff like that.  In order for Bitcoin to function as sound money, we need to agree on "black-or-white" rules like this that define which transactions are valid and which are invalid.

Notice that the paragraph above discusses valid and invalid transactions.  No where did I say anything about blocks.  That's because we only really care about transactions in the first place!  In fact, how can a block be invalid just because it includes one too many valid transactions?  

Satoshi added the 1 MB limit as an anti-spam measure to deal with certain limitations of Bitcoin's transport layer--not as a new rule for what constitutes a valid transaction.  We should thus think of every block that is exclusively composed of valid transactions as itself valid.  The size of the block alone should not make it invalid.  Instead, if a block is too big, think of it as likely to be orphaned (a "gray" rule) rather than as invalid (a black-or-white rule).  Perhaps above a certain block size, we're even 100% sure that a block will be orphaned; still we should view it as a valid block!  It will be orphaned because the transport layer was insufficient to transport it across the network--not because there was anything invalid about it.

Nice. This could be modified into a good reddit self-post that should generate a lot of thought.
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August 14, 2015, 12:56:35 PM
 #30462

Did you think Satoshi put that limit in at 1MB to be there forever? Huh

No, I suspect he meant to add other mechanisms to control in-block spam in its place (or at least I might say, hoped to, but may not have known how to do it), but never got to it and no one else picked up that work either. Now we are kind of screwed.



How are we screwed if we have time to try to find solutions?

I meant screwed on the assumption that the 1 MB is about to fill up and cause problems.

But has anyone considered that a good solution may not even exist? Bitcoin is a new thing that has never been done before and is not a law of nature that Bitcoin must "work" in general (for example at larger scale).

In my experience in building software, often problems that get the kick-the-can treatment don't end up having good solutions later either. Maybe 1MB was satoshi kicking-the-can?

I'm not claiming this, just asking the question.



Well is good the same as perfect?

Certainly not

Quote
I believe there is a good solution but not a perfect one. Sounds like the solution may be a moving target (dynamic in nature).

I hope you are right but I don't really know if there is.

Most of these ideas that get thrown out are stuff that seems like a good idea but nobody can make a rigorous argument why they won't break.



Did you have any thoughts after reading Peter R's paper? It seemed to describe the major issues as they are in their current form.

Lots of math and tons of variables to reference. I found myself going back to the definition of VARs page constantly to follow his logic/math/etc.

It answered the question of whether a fee market will collapse under certain conditions, with some simplifying assumptions about the network. I don't believe it answered (or even asked) the questions surrounding decentralization at all. You can have a fee market (in fact it is the most obvious case of one) with a single node serving the entire world. Obviously that is not a desirable outcome and nothing in his paper addresses it (nor tries to, which is fine -- that what's what papers do, they don't need to answer every question).


We already have a fee market.

But it isn't one that is very competitive yet.

Basically do we keep 1 MB cap and create a competitive fee market or raise the limit with some mechanism and eliminate the need for a competitive fee market while not turning users away and being forced to use intermediaries as payment channels.



Yes that is the question of course. My question has always been if we get rid of the 1 MB what do we do about spam control. One answer is "don't worry be happy" arguing, in effect, that the original cap was unnecessary. I'm not sure I buy it.









For whatever reason, you seem to keep  ignoring the very answers to your fears that I and guys like Peter have been detailing to you in excruciating detail over and over again.

The reason is that I don't find your answers convincing, nor rigorously analyzed or presented, for the most part. That even applies to Peter R, in terms of many of his answers on this. His paper was good but it only addressed a small part of the larger set of questions.

smoothie
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August 14, 2015, 12:59:08 PM
 #30463

I must have missed this video excerpt where hearn says to "ignore the longest chain" and basically throw out consensus to fork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB9goUDBAR0

thoughts?

Cypher?

Ice?

Smooth?

Peter?

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Erdogan
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August 14, 2015, 01:13:27 PM
 #30464

I'm actually quite excited about this idea.  It has a sort of inevitable feel to it.

Yes. Since anyone can run any software they want to interact with the Bitcoin network, this idea does seem like a logical development.

It also seems like one of those counter-intuitive anti-fragility things, where the seeming chaos and instability at a micro level will actually lead to a more predictable and stable behaviour at the macro level.

If it became more common for individual nodes to be able to tweak consensus parameters, then I think that would actually lead to more predictable and stable consensus behaviour in the long run. The worst thing that can happen to a node operator is to fall out of consensus with the rest of the network, so individual node operators would be strongly incentivised to develop methods to ensure they can track the status of the network, and deal with any potential consensus forks.

As it stands now, consensus behaviour is based on the specific implementation details of Bitcoin Core. The software is not designed with the assumption that hard consensus forks are a likely event, and when they do happen nodes are not designed to handle it gracefully. The accidental hard form of March 2013 happened because of an obscure implementation detail in the Core software, and was only possible because the software monoculture created a "single point of failure". A more diverse implementation of consensus rules might result in more frequent consensus divergences and orphaned blocks, but each one would be non-catastrophic, and would lead toward a more stable and resilient network in the long run.

Good
lunarboy
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August 14, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
 #30465

I must have missed this video excerpt where hearn says to "ignore the longest chain" and basically throw out consensus to fork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB9goUDBAR0

thoughts?

Cypher?

Ice?

Smooth?

Peter?

I really wish I hadn't just watched that.
brg444
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August 14, 2015, 01:48:18 PM
 #30466

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors" because of its own rather unique property, as smooth pointed out.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
smooth
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August 14, 2015, 01:51:12 PM
 #30467

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors".

People will collect just about anything. I'm not sure how relevant that is, but it is certainly true. I understand people collect even centrally-issued virtual assets and trade the for significant money. It is quite an odd human phenomenon. But to deny it is to deny how humans actually behave.
lunarboy
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August 14, 2015, 01:54:16 PM
 #30468

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors" because of its own rather unique property, as smooth pointed out.

Hang on a sec whilst I just nip down and photocopy an thousand copies of the Mona lisa. This is money were talking about network effect and userbase are all that is important.
brg444
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August 14, 2015, 01:56:04 PM
 #30469

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors".

People will collect just about anything. I'm not sure how relevant that is, but it is certainly true. I understand people collect even centrally-issued virtual assets and trade the for significant money. It is quite an odd human phenomenon. But to deny it is to deny how humans actually behave.

Yes! But I'm sure you will agree the different properties and scarcity of these items will define their own market value and make them unique in their own right.

I think we are getting a little too far from my original point so I guess we should leave it at that..

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
cypherdoc
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August 14, 2015, 01:58:59 PM
 #30470

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors" because of its own rather unique property, as smooth pointed out.

Hang on a sec whilst I just nip down and photocopy an thousand copies of the Mona lisa. This is money were talking about network effect and userbase are all that is important.

Bingo. 

esp since Bitcoin units are an abstract concept which can't be coddled, hugged, and fawned all over like gold.

this why a fixed supply of Bugati's or even cowry shells will never function as money in a real world.
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August 14, 2015, 02:00:14 PM
 #30471



XT nodes are still rising ! It is not about that we, the XT nodes, want a XT fork. We use this node to show our vote for bigger blocks. Because that is the only way how you can vote in this ecosystem, through a majority of nodes (if you are not a (big) mining pool). At least that is my perspective.
brg444
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August 14, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
 #30472

That is because bitcoins are a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold. Unfortunately much like gold some characteristics limit its direct use as a mean of exchange. Gold's shortcoming is in its physicality, Bitcoin's own is the decentralization tradeoff.


I think Bitcoins are absolutely a unique collectible. I hate to "call up" authority but its own creator was well aware of that:

Quote
Maybe it could get an initial value circularly as you’ve suggested, by people foreseeing its potential usefulness for exchange. (I would definitely want some) Maybe collectors, any random reason could spark it. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
It might make sense just to get some in case it catches on. If enough people think the same way, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. -Satoshi Nakamoto

Quote
Aug. 27, 2010: Bitcoins have no dividend or potential future dividend, therefore not like a stock. (They’re) more like a collectible or commodity. - Satoshi Nakamoto

Satoshi quotes which are correct, but also relate to when BTC was the only cryptocurrency.
Today http://coinmarketcap.com has about 600 listed, including - if I choose one at random - Monero.

So, is a monero a unique collectible unlike anything the world has seen since gold? Yes or No!

YES!

Now are they as "rare" by my definition than Bitcoin? No. But by all account they have obtained a significant amount of "collectors" because of its own rather unique property, as smooth pointed out.

Hang on a sec whilst I just nip down and photocopy an thousand copies of the Mona lisa. This is money were talking about network effect and userbase are all that is important.

Hmm... I'm aware of that. Maybe you'd like to return to my original post to understand the point I was trying to make which is basically that as far as Bitcoin is concerned we are still very much in the "collector" stage where users, in majority, will use it to store wealth and not necessarily to trade for goods and services.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 14, 2015, 02:05:30 PM
 #30473

this why a fixed supply of Bugati's or even cowry shells will never function as money in a real world.

Not sure what you mean by that? Cowry shells were used as money in the real world.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 14, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
 #30474

The reason is that I don't find your answers convincing, nor rigorously analyzed or presented, for the most part. That even applies to Peter R, in terms of many of his answers on this. His paper was good but it only addressed a small part of the larger set of questions.



then i'm sure you'll accept the fact that i find your fears even less rigorously presented.

at least when i throw up all those graphs from Tradeblock, Chain.io, statoshi.info, i analyze and attempt to explain what i see in the data.  and what i see during stress tests, is a network that is being artificially constrained in that there are no massive full node failures as a result of their unfortunate wasted needs to validate inflated mempools, i see no massive orphaning (that's b/c all pools are processing 1MB blocks together), i see no delays in the avg 10 min block processing, i see no problems in the storage capacities of any of my full nodes, and i hear no complaints from miners.

all i hear is complaints from users who get unconf stuck tx's and high fees and wonder what the hell is going on? sure, there's a small subset of us that know how to get thru but that is a small minority and totally ignores all those newbies who could be coming onboard to Bitcoin if not for the problems the congestion caused.  what a wasted opportunity we had a month ago during the Greek peak crisis.

and here's the thing.  i think all of us have access to the same data all the core devs have access to for the most part.  even the technical simulations they rarely do.  so really it boils down to interpretation of what we see going on and i see artificial constraint.
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August 14, 2015, 02:23:12 PM
 #30475

The reason is that I don't find your answers convincing, nor rigorously analyzed or presented, for the most part. That even applies to Peter R, in terms of many of his answers on this. His paper was good but it only addressed a small part of the larger set of questions.



then i'm sure you'll except the fact that i find your fears even less rigorously presented.

Sure. I haven't claimed otherwise, and I don't really think most of my posts on this should be convincing to anyone. They are generally conversational in tone and not trying to be authoritative. Although occasionally I do point out clear errors on specific points.

The thing is, I see this as a really hard problem to answer in a rigorous way. As I said, Peter R's paper was really good but only looked a small portion of the relevant concerns. I imagine it was also a fair amount of work. Now imagine five or so more papers like that looking at other aspects of the problem, and finally some additional papers looking at the entire thing at a system level. That's what is really needed. I don't think we are going to get that before this issue or the conflict over it becomes a serious problem one way or another.

We are trying to design an airplane upgrade while the plane is in the air, without any real knowledge of aerodynamics.

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August 14, 2015, 02:23:52 PM
 #30476

The reason is that I don't find your answers convincing, nor rigorously analyzed or presented, for the most part. That even applies to Peter R, in terms of many of his answers on this. His paper was good but it only addressed a small part of the larger set of questions.



what a wasted opportunity we had a month ago during the Greek peak crisis.


oh please... Roll Eyes

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 14, 2015, 02:36:13 PM
 #30477

I must have missed this video excerpt where hearn says to "ignore the longest chain" and basically throw out consensus to fork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB9goUDBAR0

thoughts?

Cypher?

Ice?

Smooth?

Peter?

it seems the avg Bitcoiner can't bear to hear or even discuss "possible" messy scenarios as Mike is quite rightfully willing to do.  as he should and as all of should and DO.   Brian asked him to explain in detail what he meant so Mike simply explained a possible solution, checkpoints, that could be used if the Chinese hashing power didn't go along with 20MB blocks. 

first off, i don't think it gets that far.  when push comes to shove, everyone will converge to one network to preserve value.  second, since i don't agree with the concept of checkpoints, i would probably go with which chain ISN'T employing them.  anyways, these scenarios are all very theoretical and it doesn't hurt to discuss them as Mike did.  they aren't likely to occur.

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August 14, 2015, 02:42:12 PM
 #30478

this one is a big loss for NY:

http://blog.sci.ph/?p=564
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August 14, 2015, 02:46:19 PM
 #30479

Apple still not doing well:

Peter R
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August 14, 2015, 03:28:05 PM
 #30480

The reason is that I don't find your answers convincing, nor rigorously analyzed or presented, for the most part. That even applies to Peter R, in terms of many of his answers on this. His paper was good but it only addressed a small part of the larger set of questions.

then i'm sure you'll except the fact that i find your fears even less rigorously presented.

Sure. I haven't claimed otherwise, and I don't really think most of my posts on this should be convincing to anyone. They are generally conversational in tone and not trying to be authoritative. Although occasionally I do point out clear errors on specific points.

The thing is, I see this as a really hard problem to answer in a rigorous way. As I said, Peter R's paper was really good but only looked a small portion of the relevant concerns. I imagine it was also a fair amount of work. Now imagine five or so more papers like that looking at other aspects of the problem, and finally some additional papers looking at the entire thing at a system level. That's what is really needed. I don't think we are going to get that before this issue or the conflict over it becomes a serious problem one way or another.

We are trying to design an airplane upgrade while the plane is in the air, without any real knowledge of aerodynamics.

I agree with everything you said above, and I appreciate having people like you who understand how scientific progress is often made incrementally by analyzing a small part of a larger and more complex problem.

However, I'm not sure I agree with everything you might have implied (correct me if I'm wrong).  I agree we do not yet have sufficient knowledge to choose the best course of action regarding the block size limit, but that applies equally well--and perhaps more so--to keeping the limit constant at 1 MB.

I personally think we should increase the limit in some way while we continue to perform the research you suggested above.  This seems like the least bad way to move forward.  Do you disagree?

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