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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2013414 times)
El Cabron
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May 16, 2014, 12:05:33 PM
 #8081

there is no way in the world nigeria will take btc for their oil or ukrain will take btc for their wheat. they will not want govt debt but something real over the last 6000 years, they will want gold!

The problem with gold is you know where it is. If say the BRICs start a new trading block and have a new version of the IMF backed by gold, managing gold reserves becomes a problem if you settle trade deficits in gold and need to transport it by ship the opposing PTB can just sink that ship and destabilize the banking in the trading block. Crypto solves this problem.

The other solution is you keep it with the equivalent of the FED, and over time risk that they lease it out and you are back at the distinction manipulated banking system you tried to escape. So why not just stick with the existing system.

Hello there is this new system! as you say it may break, but if it doesn't, wow it's going to be big.
Unfortunately the benefactors are rather distrusting of it.

my point is, there is no way in the near future nation states will use crypto coins for international trade. since they will not use crypto what will they use?

yes gold is not perfect but it has worked pretty damn well for 6000 years.

what will happen in 50 years? well that is a whole different game... but in 50 years im pretty sure im going to be dead...

Sorry El Cabron, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622250.msg7030081#msg7030081
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May 16, 2014, 12:12:34 PM
 #8082

Gold is supremely impractical in the modern world.  Bitcoin solves every problem that gold solves and even some that gold can't solve.

fiat is dead as they have printed up too much and people will lose faith in it. people will then go back to something else, will nations use some new crypto coin to do large international trade? fuck no, they will use oil or gold. gold is a perfect for this, everyone knows where it is, what it is and how much it is worth.


there is no way in the world nigeria will take btc for their oil or ukrain will take btc for their wheat. they will not want govt debt but something real over the last 6000 years, they will want gold!

btc can break or fork or get cracked at anytime. btc is way too new to be the new world standard, in 100 years? or 50 years? maybe... in 5 years? no fucking way.

if we have a 2008 again and cant fix it by printing up money they will just keep printing until they either do buy some more time or print forever.



i love crypto, its is great but Gold is not worthless like some people keep wanting it to be.


its crazy that gold is worth anything at all, but where there is nothing else for international trade, it is what we will have to use.

not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


anyway gold will far outlive any fiat around the world today.... and keep in mind btc could break and become worthless at any second... dont keep all your money in one basket... you need some gold in case the massive massive fail that we know will happen happens...  (get some silver too)


goat out...

Very well said.
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May 16, 2014, 12:31:16 PM
 #8083


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?

John999
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May 16, 2014, 01:03:27 PM
 #8084


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.
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May 16, 2014, 01:47:15 PM
 #8085


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.


Yes, I'm going to tell you that. You need to feel extremely secure you really own your property to say the same. Also, how would you move them to another country if you needed to leave your current one?

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May 16, 2014, 02:06:30 PM
 #8086


my point is, there is no way in the near future nation states will use crypto coins for international trade. since they will not use crypto what will they use?


I think you have more than 50 years if you avoid protesting in the streets over the next 15 years.  

Your point is probably correct, but I'm thinking crypro's are the catalyst to an emerging Type I monetary system away from the Type O on the Kardashev scale nations are the old paradigm, we'll soon be all globally identified.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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May 16, 2014, 02:19:47 PM
 #8087


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.


Yes, I'm going to tell you that. You need to feel extremely secure you really own your property to say the same. Also, how would you move them to another country if you needed to leave your current one?

Then I'm sorry if you are not recourceful. as for moving your gold, you simply take it with you  Grin People have done that for centuries.

Jewish joke
A few years ago, Joseph was finally given an exit permit by the Russians and allowed to emigrate to Israel to join his family.  He was told that he could only take what he could pack into one suitcase.
At Moscow airport he was stopped by an enormous Customs officer who glared at him and snarled "Open the case!"
Joseph opened the case and the Russian rummaged through the meagre belongings and pulled out a large bundle wrapped in old copies of Pravda.  He unwrapped it to reveal a bust of Stalin.
"What is that" snarled the customs officer.
"What is that?" said Joseph timidly. "You shouldn't ask 'What is that?' You should ask 'Who is that?' That is our glorious leader Stalin.  I'm taking it to my new home to remind me of all the wonderful things that he did and the marvellous life that I am leaving behind."
"I always knew that you Jews were mad!" said the official, tossing the bust into the case. "Go!"
A few hours later Joseph arrived at Ben Gurion airport and was confronted by an Israeli customs officer. "Shalom, Welcome to Israel.  Open the case!"
Once again Joseph's belongings were examined and the customs officer came upon the bust. "What is that" said the customs officer.
"What is that?" said Joseph indignantly. "You shouldn't ask 'What is that?'  You should ask 'Who is that?'  That is that bastard, Stalin.  I'm taking it to my new home to remind me of all the misery and suffering that he caused me for most of my life.  I want to spit on it every day for the rest of my life."
"I always knew that you Russian Jews were mad!" said the official, tossing the bust into the case. "Go!"
At last Joseph arrived in his new home and eventually got round to unpacking watched by his young nephew. He took out his few clothes and then carefully unwrapped the bust of Stalin and put it on the table.
"Who is that?" asked his nephew.
"Who is that?" said Joseph with a smile. "You shouldn't ask 'Who is that?', You should ask 'What is that?'.
"That is five kilos of gold!"
thezerg
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May 16, 2014, 02:25:22 PM
 #8088

Gold is supremely impractical in the modern world.  Bitcoin solves every problem that gold solves and even some that gold can't solve.

fiat is dead as they have printed up too much and people will lose faith in it. people will then go back to something else, will nations use some new crypto coin to do large international trade? fuck no, they will use oil or gold. gold is a perfect for this, everyone knows where it is, what it is and how much it is worth.


there is no way in the world nigeria will take btc for their oil or ukrain will take btc for their wheat. they will not want govt debt but something real over the last 6000 years, they will want gold!

btc can break or fork or get cracked at anytime. btc is way too new to be the new world standard, in 100 years? or 50 years? maybe... in 5 years? no fucking way.

if we have a 2008 again and cant fix it by printing up money they will just keep printing until they either do buy some more time or print forever.



i love crypto, its is great but Gold is not worthless like some people keep wanting it to be.


its crazy that gold is worth anything at all, but where there is nothing else for international trade, it is what we will have to use.

not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


anyway gold will far outlive any fiat around the world today.... and keep in mind btc could break and become worthless at any second... dont keep all your money in one basket... you need some gold in case the massive massive fail that we know will happen happens...  (get some silver too)


goat out...

Very well said.

You may be right for a few country-sized slow moving commodities deals but physical transportation of gold will always be difficult, inconvenient and extremely inefficient in this world of rapid prototyping of multiple iterations of device case or PCB assembly sampling sent next day air because the engineers waiting for samples are paid a lot more per hour than the cost to ship.  

A near-instant international currency is a modern necessity for the millions of daily smaller deals.  It would be a major competitive advantage compared to a company that insists on delaying for physical bullion receipt.  There are likely to be 3 choices:

1. Yuan -- but the entire free world will have trust problems and problems conferring first-among-equals status to China.  They would have to have no other choice.  
2. 100% backed E-gold with distributed repositories.  Assay teams from all member countries endlessly touring each other's facilities, counting bars, slicing to verify no tungsten.
3. Bitcoin

If the petrodollar melted down tomorrow, I think bitcoin would be an extremely hard sell.  But let's say 5 years from now BTC's "market cap" is worth 10 to 1000x what it is today and is carrying 2% of international payments or more.  Given that base, Bitcoin could easily become the next major international trade currency.  But it won't be binary... just like there IS trade/settlement in gold and Yuan today.

Why do you imagine the PBOC, controlling an economy of ~10 trillion cares so much about a tiny technology moving a few million a day, if that?
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May 16, 2014, 02:29:00 PM
 #8089


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.


Yes, I'm going to tell you that. You need to feel extremely secure you really own your property to say the same. Also, how would you move them to another country if you needed to leave your current one?

Then I'm sorry if you are not recourceful. as for moving your gold, you simply take it with you  Grin People have done that for centuries.
...

"Who is that?" said Joseph with a smile. "You shouldn't ask 'Who is that?', You should ask 'What is that?'.
"That is five kilos of gold!"


If only it was that easy...
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/world/asia/india-stomach-surgery-gold/
El Cabron
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May 16, 2014, 02:33:10 PM
 #8090


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


gold is small and dense. you can hide in in a flower pot, in the water storage area of your toilet, you can wear it around your neck.

most people do not have $100,000 worth of gold they need to store, and if that really is your problem, you have a good problem to have. pretty sure you can come up with something.
 

Sorry El Cabron, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
Trolling
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622250.msg7030081#msg7030081
John999
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May 16, 2014, 02:36:36 PM
 #8091


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.


Yes, I'm going to tell you that. You need to feel extremely secure you really own your property to say the same. Also, how would you move them to another country if you needed to leave your current one?

Then I'm sorry if you are not recourceful. as for moving your gold, you simply take it with you  Grin People have done that for centuries.
...

"Who is that?" said Joseph with a smile. "You shouldn't ask 'Who is that?', You should ask 'What is that?'.
"That is five kilos of gold!"


If only it was that easy...
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/world/asia/india-stomach-surgery-gold/

It is that easy.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-500-kg-of-gold-smuggled-into-india-every-day-1929753

El Cabron
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May 16, 2014, 02:38:19 PM
 #8092

it really is easy to move gold around. that is one of the whole points of my it has been worth so much for so long.

clearly im not a btc hater at all, but im just here saying that gold is not going away any time soon.

the us dollar and other fiat however might Smiley

Sorry El Cabron, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
Trolling
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622250.msg7030081#msg7030081
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May 16, 2014, 02:48:15 PM
 #8093


not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


There's one big flaw in your reasoning: I'm pretty sure most people don't have a safe and secure way to hold physical gold (especially 5% of their net worth). People cry about the security of crypto but to me it's a hell better to hold when looking at storage costs and costs of theft or loss. I'm sure we agree holding paper gold is no substitute.

Where am I (or most other people for that matter) going to safely store physical bullion?


Let's say you have a net worth of 1 million usd (most people have way less). 5% is 50000usd. 50000usd is around 4 small rolls of 10*1 oz gold maple leafs
http://www.apmex.com/product/79051/2014-1-oz-gold-maple-leafs-10-coin-mintdirect-tube

Don't tell me you won't be able to hide them safely somewhere. I can understand this argument for silver but gold is not bulky.


Yes, I'm going to tell you that. You need to feel extremely secure you really own your property to say the same. Also, how would you move them to another country if you needed to leave your current one?

Then I'm sorry if you are not recourceful. as for moving your gold, you simply take it with you  Grin People have done that for centuries.
...

"Who is that?" said Joseph with a smile. "You shouldn't ask 'Who is that?', You should ask 'What is that?'.
"That is five kilos of gold!"


If only it was that easy...
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/world/asia/india-stomach-surgery-gold/

It is that easy.

http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-500-kg-of-gold-smuggled-into-india-every-day-1929753



wow, 5 oz or 5 gold coins.  whoop di doop!

let's face it.  i'm surprised ppl around here are talking such small amounts.  back in 2011 i had bags and bags and rolls and rolls of the stuff in my home safe.  it was a very uncomfortable feeling.  it was even worse carrying all that shit to the local bullion dealer to sell it.  almost broke my back.  no way is smuggling that stuff across a border possible.  who would even want to take that risk? 

gold is an Armageddon play where the entire internet gets shut off.  guns and bullets will do more in that situation. 
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May 16, 2014, 02:56:20 PM
 #8094



Sure gold could lose 70% of it's value before then, but fiat is dead....
 

now you can say you were right no matter what happens.
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May 16, 2014, 03:55:50 PM
 #8095



Sure gold could lose 70% of it's value before then, but fiat is dead....
 

now you can say you were right no matter what happens.

fiat can be highly unstable, i wont say gold will not lose value if they pull some stunts but my point was gold should have a place in a balanced investment portfolio.

5 to 10% is reasonable.

gold is not dead, i know im going to be able to say i was right. 5 years from now you are going to be wonder why the hell gold is still being bought and sold, i wont be.

Sorry El Cabron, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622250.msg7030081#msg7030081
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May 16, 2014, 05:23:41 PM
 #8096

Gold is supremely impractical in the modern world.  Bitcoin solves every problem that gold solves and even some that gold can't solve.

fiat is dead as they have printed up too much and people will lose faith in it. people will then go back to something else, will nations use some new crypto coin to do large international trade? fuck no, they will use oil or gold. gold is a perfect for this, everyone knows where it is, what it is and how much it is worth.


there is no way in the world nigeria will take btc for their oil or ukrain will take btc for their wheat. they will not want govt debt but something real over the last 6000 years, they will want gold!

btc can break or fork or get cracked at anytime. btc is way too new to be the new world standard, in 100 years? or 50 years? maybe... in 5 years? no fucking way.

if we have a 2008 again and cant fix it by printing up money they will just keep printing until they either do buy some more time or print forever.



i love crypto, its is great but Gold is not worthless like some people keep wanting it to be.


its crazy that gold is worth anything at all, but where there is nothing else for international trade, it is what we will have to use.

not holding 5% of your net wealth in gold is just foolish if you ask me. im about the 10% mark and think thats a healthy place to be.


anyway gold will far outlive any fiat around the world today.... and keep in mind btc could break and become worthless at any second... dont keep all your money in one basket... you need some gold in case the massive massive fail that we know will happen happens...  (get some silver too)


goat out...
You are mixing two issues together which are unrelated.  Gold will outlive fiat is like saying the earth or the sun will outlive fiat.  Until a way to convert energy into specific matter will be discovered it's a good idea to own some because it is a useful material of limited quantity.  But the discussion here is if gold will be used as money and therefore acquire extra value above and beyond industrial and jewelry uses.  Gold has been used in trade international or otherwise for ages but the problems with transport, assay and counter-party risk is what bitcoin solves quite elegantly.  In a world with a computer in everyone's pocket it's hard to see the rationale of using gold coins for trade.  Just the simple issue of making change requires all kinds of extra machinations.  It's like mail vs email.  Sure you can send a letter but the extra machinations ensure its use keeps declining.  Sure 5 years from now it will still be traded but you think the worlds population 5 years from now will have less computer devices or will have less interactions with the internet???  At the end of the day money is just an accounting system.  So unless something major is broken with crypto it is hard to picture the worlds population deciding to use gold to do accounting vs computers to do accounting.  That doesn't mean bitcoin will be the winner but gold as money will likely be the loser.
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May 17, 2014, 11:34:37 PM
 #8097

great summary of where we are:

http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/20140510_international_banking.pdf
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May 17, 2014, 11:35:57 PM
 #8098

explains this:

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May 17, 2014, 11:44:00 PM
 #8099

i just love these graphs.

and i still want some of this:

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May 18, 2014, 01:32:30 AM
 #8100


Damn, that is a great report. The economist doing what it does best. Thanks for sharing!
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