[XMR] Monero Speculation

[dEBRUYNE]

Kovri (I2P) dev meeting in approximately 2 hours (17:00 UTC). Dev meeting can be followed at #monero-dev on freenode

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20160508T17&p1=0&p2=56&p3=37&p4=102&p5=240&p6=136&p7=179&p8=137&p9=70

If you have an IRC client, just make sure you are on the freenode server and you can subsequently join #monero-dev

If you don't have an IRC client, you can follow the dev meeting using:

http://webchat.freenode.net/

Set the channel to -> #monero-dev

And pick a nickname you like. Everyone is welcome to follow the dev meeting!

Conversation at #monero-dev:

<dEBRUYNE> fluffypony: The messages from the I2P meeting will end up @ #kovri-dev on freenode right?
<fluffypony> on irc2p, and on freenode
<fluffypony> so you can just stay here, no need to change rooms

[generalizethis]

Flatlining at 0.00192215 atm. Interesting to see where this will go.

My guess, it will go down.

it alwasys  saddening to see investor being skinned by whale...

EDIT :  IMHO monero should think about implementing masternode btw, so that price have better stability

Does IMHO mean In My Horrible Opinion? Incentivizing nodes creates more problems than it fixes. Even if you did it in a way that doesn't encourage centralization (IE the Evan way) you still add a layer of complexity that will have many unintended results. Isn't creating a coin with fungibility as near as cash as possible and having it work within the most private network available enough for the Devs to contend with? Or do you also suggest that Monero moves away from the built-the-way-it-was-supposed-to-be-built-plan to  promises-then-lowered-expectsations-followed-by-bigger-promises-then-lowered-expectations-followed-by-OH-SHIT-IT"S-BROKE-that-was-not-the-plan?

cryptocurrency is not paper money, it need node by design, the same way it need miner. so as by design which miner was incentivized, so node too should be rewarded. 

yes it will add complexity, but that give bigger reward to the coin holder. why afraid of complexity is that why monero still using command line wallet    because gui wallet add complexity to developer

Complexity + unintended consequences = bad design

I get why nodes are important, but until someone figures out a way to reward them without introducing centralization, I doubt you'll find the concept in any serious cryptocurrency.

Do you have a plan to implement them that doesn't incur more centralization? If you do, I'd like to hear it.

BTW, here's why masternodes are a terrible idea as implemented:

Dash's failure at trustless decentralization is the test case that formed my understanding of why trustless decentralization is necessary for any cryptocurrency to succeed at being disruptive. Dash's failure is that it built a centralizing flaw that aggregates coins to those who run nodes and layering power functions (votes, fees, privacy, etc...) onto these nodes.

Dash's nodes have two major weaknesses in design: first, they are pay based, or paynodes, which means that they can be bought and sold. The second flaw in design is that they collect fees, which means node holders collect money that in turn can be used to buy more nodes that in turn can collect more fees, and so on and so forth. Where this especially becomes troubling is that dash's launch produced 2 million coins in 2 days and this initial distribution cannot be verified to be fairly distributed, which means the resources to buy 2000 nodes (more than half of current existing at this writing) were made available to a few lucky guys who happened to be mining at that right moment--considering this is 30% of current distribution and given that they could have bought 2000 or more masternodes since that scheme was introduced, the number of masternodes these initial miners could have may be considerably more than 30%, and considering that this control can aggregate over time, it illustrates why these systems need to be trustlessly verified.

I apologize for all the numbers just thrown at you, but lets make it simpler, since the masternode system collects the revenue that determines its degree of centralization, and that centralization can't be verified to any statistical certainty, we should assume that it is increasingly trending towards a traditional oligarchy or monarchy, where one or a few have undue power over the entire system--how it behaves, the distribution and security of its benefits.

We can assume this model fails at decentralization if we follow the principle that a cryptosystem should be trustlessly verified--it is imperative that if you want to break away from the shackles of a central power and from the enablers of these systems, you can not get there following the same old trusted rules, mathematics have given us the tools to undermine and outperform these old world systems, but we will never get there by using systems that forgo the technology and embrace the old world trust model in a vain attempt to disrupt those standards by embracing them.

[owlcatz]

Arguments aside ...

I thought we may be going back to the .0019 area, but not now apparently. Maybe the dev meeting today will have some good news on the price.  

[noobtrader]

the idea of masternod == decentralization is as stupid as the idea that pow mining==centralization.   because ppl will always try to manipulate price and their coin holding regardless of masternode or not.  i dont get it why ppl holding masternode is centralized when its the miner which processing the transaction    and ppl still can host node without coin  if he feel like it  

without masternode, XMR price fall because many ppl who bought lower fear that they lost their profit and dump their coin. eventually ppl will get panicked as well and sell at loss.

[DaveyJones]

the idea of masternod == decentralization is as stupid as the idea that pow mining==centralization.   because ppl will always try to manipulate price and their coin holding regardless of masternode or not.  i dont get it why ppl holding masternode is centralized when its the miner which processing the transaction    and ppl still can host node without coin  if he feel like it  

without masternode, XMR price fall because many ppl who bought lower fear that they lost their profit and dump their coin. eventually ppl will get panicked as well and sell at loss.

I dont think you get what CryptoCurrencies are for ... 1 Monero will always be 1 Monero... what you are saying is that you are only interested in the price of your coin compared to fiat

[noobtrader]

the idea of masternod == decentralization is as stupid as the idea that pow mining==centralization.   because ppl will always try to manipulate price and their coin holding regardless of masternode or not.  i dont get it why ppl holding masternode is centralized when its the miner which processing the transaction    and ppl still can host node without coin  if he feel like it  

without masternode, XMR price fall because many ppl who bought lower fear that they lost their profit and dump their coin. eventually ppl will get panicked as well and sell at loss.

I dont think you get what CryptoCurrencies are for ... 1 Monero will always be 1 Monero... what you are saying is that you are only interested in the price of your coin compared to fiat

the question is whether 1 monero is 0.002 or is it 0.0002 btc...

uh wait... bitcoin is CryptoCurrencies  tooo 

[generalizethis]

i dont get it

That's why I explained it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1443867.0

Can't make it any clearer (unless cognitive dissonance, or worse, is the real problem).

BTW, masternodes compound the problem of mining centralization, so stating a problem to explain the need for a new problem is not what you are doing here (though it's still weird logic) you are actually adding another problem that is most likely worse--and, in dash's case, is worse.

Also, I don't watch markets that much, but is there a corollary between masternodes and stable price? Both XMR and dash seem to have similar price fluctuations. If that's true, then your original argument goes out the window (masternodes=price stability). Aren't there already benefits to miners and services running full-nodes? If so, then increased mining and services should correspond with node increase.

Although even the incentivized node as price stabilizer in'ts really a valid argument in itself. Unless you account for the coins being removed from the market, you aren't really saying nodes are creating the upward or stabilizing pressure--you could very turn the argument to, "Why doesn't dash have a CryptoKingdom style game to stabilize the price?"  

[noobtrader]

i dont get it

That's why I explained it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1443867.0

Can't make it any clearer (unless cognitive dissonance, or worse, is the real problem).

BTW, masternodes compound the problem of mining centralization, so stating a problem to explain the need for a new problem is not what you are doing here (though it's still weird logic) you are actually adding another problem that is most likely worse--and, in dash's case, is worse.

Also, I don't watch markets that much, but is there a corollary between masternodes and stable price? Both XMR and dash seem to have similar price fluctuations. If that's true, then your original argument goes out the window (masternodes=price stability). Aren't there already benefits to miners and services running full-nodes? If so, then increased mining and services should correspond with node increase.

Although even the incentivized node as price stabilizer in'ts really a valid argument in itself. Unless you account for the coins being removed from the market, you aren't really saying nodes are creating the upward or stabilizing pressure--you could very turn the argument to, "Why doesn't dash have a CryptoKingdom style game to stabilize the price?"  

i dont get it because your FUD is dihonest,  you cant do 51% attack with masternode so there is no centralization.  your XMR whale might hodl 50% of xmr coin and he is swinging price like a toy. so there is your centralization, how would you prevent ppl from dumping all their Monero then close up their node and mining other coin likeeee... Aeon instead  

[generalizethis]

i dont get it

That's why I explained it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1443867.0

Can't make it any clearer (unless cognitive dissonance, or worse, is the real problem).

BTW, masternodes compound the problem of mining centralization, so stating a problem to explain the need for a new problem is not what you are doing here (though it's still weird logic) you are actually adding another problem that is most likely worse--and, in dash's case, is worse.

Also, I don't watch markets that much, but is there a corollary between masternodes and stable price? Both XMR and dash seem to have similar price fluctuations. If that's true, then your original argument goes out the window (masternodes=price stability). Aren't there already benefits to miners and services running full-nodes? If so, then increased mining and services should correspond with node increase.

Although even the incentivized node as price stabilizer isn't really a valid argument in itself. Unless you account for the coins being removed from the market, you aren't really saying nodes are creating the upward or stabilizing pressure--you could very turn the argument to, "Why doesn't dash have a CryptoKingdom style game to stabilize the price?"  

i dont get it because my FUD is dihonest,  with masternodes you can control voting so there is centralization.  your dash whale might hodl 50% of dash coin and he is swinging price like a toy. so there is your centralization, how would you prevent ppl from dumping all their dash when close up their node  

If you aren't going to bother reading, I'm not going to bother explaining--I'll just fix your mistakes.  

[Hueristic]

....

EDIT :  IMHO monero should think about implementing masternode btw, so that price have better

You will Never Ever EVER EVER see Mnodes in any serious Vcurrency. Did I say ever yet? They are nothing more than a bandaid on a flawed system that incentivizes holding. They also add a huge security weakness and have the opposite effect of their intention.

[ArticMine]

...


i dont get it because your FUD is dihonest,  you cant do 51% attack with masternode so there is no centralization.  your XMR whale might hodl 50% of xmr coin and he is swinging price like a toy. so there is your centralization, how would you prevent ppl from dumping all their Monero then close up their node and mining other coin likeeee... Aeon instead  

You borrow rather than buy to launch a 51% attack against the masternodes.  This is a fundamental weakness with any Proof of Stake, or Proof of Stake like, system and is not just limited to Dash. I formulated the Second Pirate Savings and Trust attack on Proof of Stake in the following post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.msg10182752#msg10182752 those of us who have been around Bitcoin for a while will remember the First Pirate Savings and Trust and other very large Bitcoin shorts such as Mark Karpelès of MTGox. Borrowed "stake" is what nearly brought down the fiat banking system in 2008, forcing massive intervention by central banks and governments. In Dash the problem is magnified because the minimum 1000 Dash per masternode encourages the setting up of masternodes using borrowed Dash.

[smooth]

it alwasys  saddening to see investor being skinned by whale...

Are you actually a noob?

Cryptocurrencies are volatile but actual investors never get 'skinned' by swings, only inferior traders trying to compete with superior traders. The same applies to cryptocurrencies, stocks, metals, or anything else.

You analyze long term prospects, buy, put the coins into cold storage, and unless long-term prospects change (which happens infrequently) do the actual hard part: wait and do nothing. Short term swings are of no consequence whatsoever.

[Drekavac]

How come this community dont have at least Avatar campaign?
Youtube video?
Such good money but poor marketing strategy.

[smooth]

How come this community dont have at least Avatar campaign?
Youtube video?
Such good money but poor marketing strategy.

You see "poor marketing strategy", I see a great opportunity for you:

1. Buy Monero at prices depressed by the current "poor marketing"
2. Improve the marketing to merely average (should be easy!)
3. Profit

[dEBRUYNE]

Logs for the dev meeting held on 2016-05-08 (sixth dev meeting)

https://getmonero.org/2016/05/08/overview-and-logs-for-the-dev-meeting-held-on-2016-05-08.html


Logs for the Kovri (I2P) meeting held on 2016-05-08

https://getmonero.org/2016/05/08/logs-for-the-kovri-dev-meeting-held-on-2016-05-08.html

[Hueristic]

How come this community dont have at least Avatar campaign?
Youtube video?
Such good money but poor marketing strategy.

No marketing until initial release. We are still in beta.

[dEBRUYNE]

MAAM #15 Monero Ask Anything Monday

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/4igtts/maam_15_monero_ask_anything_monday/

[nioc]

it alwasys  saddening to see investor being skinned by whale...

Are you actually a noob?

Cryptocurrencies are volatile but actual investors never get 'skinned' by swings, only inferior traders trying to compete with superior traders. The same applies to cryptocurrencies, stocks, metals, or anything else.

You analyze long term prospects, buy, put the coins into cold storage, and unless long-term prospects change (which happens infrequently) and the actual hard part, wait and do nothing. Short term swing are of no consequence whatsoever.

I'm good at the hard part  Actually I also donate money as it might shorten the waiting time

How come this community dont have at least Avatar campaign?
Youtube video?
Such good money but poor marketing strategy.

I participate in an unpaid sig campaign that nobody else designed or asked for.  There are many others that take similar initiative on their own.  Whatever strikes their fancy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news; I have no idea where the price is going near term.  All eyes seem to be on btc.  I still have almost all my btc that is earmarked for XMR and it will be spent.  I won't know when until it happens.  By then I could have even more to spend

[smooth]

it alwasys  saddening to see investor being skinned by whale...

Are you actually a noob?

Cryptocurrencies are volatile but actual investors never get 'skinned' by swings, only inferior traders trying to compete with superior traders. The same applies to cryptocurrencies, stocks, metals, or anything else.

You analyze long term prospects, buy, put the coins into cold storage, and unless long-term prospects change (which happens infrequently) and the actual hard part, wait and do nothing. Short term swing are of no consequence whatsoever.

I'm good at the hard part  Actually I also donate money as it might shorten the waiting time

That's a valid point. I was drawing a contrast between trading and not trading but doing things that increase the value of your investment is also useful and important.

[noobtrader]

...


i dont get it because your FUD is dihonest,  you cant do 51% attack with masternode so there is no centralization.  your XMR whale might hodl 50% of xmr coin and he is swinging price like a toy. so there is your centralization, how would you prevent ppl from dumping all their Monero then close up their node and mining other coin likeeee... Aeon instead  

You borrow rather than buy to launch a 51% attack against the masternodes.  This is a fundamental weakness with any Proof of Stake, or Proof of Stake like, system and is not just limited to Dash. I formulated the Second Pirate Savings and Trust attack on Proof of Stake in the following post https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=897488.msg10182752#msg10182752 those of us who have been around Bitcoin for a while will remember the First Pirate Savings and Trust and other very large Bitcoin shorts such as Mark Karpelès of MTGox. Borrowed "stake" is what nearly brought down the fiat banking system in 2008, forcing massive intervention by central banks and governments. In Dash the problem is magnified because the minimum 1000 Dash per masternode encourages the setting up of masternodes using borrowed Dash.

pls inform me how to borrow dash to launch 50% attack on masternode LOOOLLLL   its not even POS sistem which masternode were confirming tx...   

it alwasys  saddening to see investor being skinned by whale...

Are you actually a noob?

Cryptocurrencies are volatile but actual investors never get 'skinned' by swings, only inferior traders trying to compete with superior traders. The same applies to cryptocurrencies, stocks, metals, or anything else.

You analyze long term prospects, buy, put the coins into cold storage, and unless long-term prospects change (which happens infrequently) do the actual hard part: wait and do nothing. Short term swings are of no consequence whatsoever.

TLDR...

Cheeeep coin guys.... buy buy buy LOOLLL