[XMR] Monero Speculation

[jwinterm]

...
The coin is just too small to reliably support those sorts of products and independent efforts (not meant as any disrespect for jwinterm and his lightWallet GUI which is still maintained and used). While it isn't the idea long-term strategy, for now we need to focus efforts on getting one well-maintained GUI.

None taken. I'd hardly even call it maintained to be fair. Based on your last sentence I infer that you believe the official Monero core GUI is still quite a ways off, unless you're saying that Monero core will be that one well-maintained GUI, and efforts should be focused there.

[1714692705]

1714692705

[Johnny Mnemonic]

I'm afraid I can't agree. It will help facilitate that adoption by giving people (including people outside the cryptosphere) something to download that is easier to use. Without that such efforts face a very uphill battle. You could possibly reach beyond the cryptposhere to other sys admis, software developers, etc. who are comfortable with command line tool, but that's a narrow market with little obvious attraction to alternative monetary systems.

I think we disagree on what Monero is in scope. I see it as a protocol for third parties to leverage and use in their products and services, and not (ultimately) as something the end user will ever need to download and run independently. Hardware and software wallets will be third party tools of various flavors depending on the needs of the user, but none of which require the user to download core Monero binaries to use.

It will help facilitate that adoption by giving people (including people outside the cryptosphere) something to download that is easier to use.

I'm saying that people have no reason to download and use the core software unless it's part of a product or service that gives them a good reason to use it.

EDIT: for example, Poloniex doesn't need an XMR GUI to offer users a robust and intuitive crypto exchange... and XMR.TO and Shapeshift don't need an XMR GUI to offer users quick and easy btc conversion. MyMonero doesn't require a bundled GUI to offer its own simple web wallet service. It's services like those that ultimately attract users, not core implementations that end-users will never bother with anyway

[r0ach]

A GUI by itself will do little for adoption.

Except in the case of Monero - where it has taken so long that it's the equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever, and people that had no interest in the coin at all will just be amazed if it actually comes out and download it just to see what the hell it is.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

A GUI by itself will do little for adoption.

Except in the case of Monero - where it has taken so long that it's the equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever, and people that had no interest in the coin at all will just be amazed if it actually comes out and download it just to see what the hell it is.

I get that you're (probably) joking, but it's still worth noting that DNF was a product (and a much hyped one at that) designed for the end user, whereas cryptocurrencies are protocols ultimately intended for integration into other systems and services.

[smooth]

EDIT: for example, Poloniex doesn't need an XMR GUI to offer users a robust and intuitive crypto exchange... and XMR.TO and Shapeshift don't need an XMR GUI to offer users quick and easy btc conversion.

Except that is completely wrong. Poloniex can't offer a robust and intuitive crypto exchange for XMR unless users have the ability to
withdraw their coins in a manner consistent with the skill and comfort level. The same applies to all of the others more or less (less so for MyMonero).

It is also the case that spending coins left on an exchange, while possible, is inconvenient.

Part of the appeal of a private store of value is that you can actually store it yourself under your own control. Only then can you proceed to use it by spending it (which in turn makes it attractive to offer services to people using Monero as a private store of value), but not before. Without a GUI many potential users can't do either.

[Hueristic]

Gui will help adoption period there are no arguments that are sound against that.

I disagree completely. There are plenty of reasonable arguments against that, the biggest of which is that a bundled GUI will do nothing to attract adoption outside of the cryptosphere, and almost everyone inside the cryptosphere is already aware of Monero and can use it if they want to.

A GUI by itself will do little for adoption.

Let me link Grandma to anything other than a official supported easy to use GUI and see what happens.

BTW when you answered for me the other day you were spot on. thx

[smooth]

...
The coin is just too small to reliably support those sorts of products and independent efforts (not meant as any disrespect for jwinterm and his lightWallet GUI which is still maintained and used). While it isn't the idea long-term strategy, for now we need to focus efforts on getting one well-maintained GUI.

None taken. I'd hardly even call it maintained to be fair. Based on your last sentence I infer that you believe the official Monero core GUI is still quite a ways off, unless you're saying that Monero core will be that one well-maintained GUI, and efforts should be focused there.

I did not mean to suggest anything about the expected timeframe for the core GUI. I did mean that it would be the one well-maintained GUI, since efforts would be focused on it in a manner that doesn't seem to happen for independent GUIs.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

EDIT: for example, Poloniex doesn't need an XMR GUI to offer users a robust and intuitive crypto exchange... and XMR.TO and Shapeshift don't need an XMR GUI to offer users quick and easy btc conversion.

Except that is completely wrong. Poloniex can't offer a robust and intuitive crypto exchange for XMR unless users have the ability to
withdraw their coins in a manner consistent with the skill and comfort level. The same applies to all of the others more or less (less so for MyMonero).

It is also the case that spending coins left on an exchange, while possible, is inconvenient.

Part of the appeal of a private store of value is that you can actually store it yourself under your own control. Only then can you proceed to use it by spending it (which in turn makes it attractive to offer services to people using Monero as a private store of value), but not before. Without a GUI many potential users can't do either.

I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with. I'm not saying GUI's aren't important. I'm saying they're products that should be left to third parties and are largely outside the scope of what the core software should include.

[r0ach]

If Monero wanted to get big attention and adoption, you gotta do something that Bitcoin isn't like below.  I think this would be a crazy good crowdfund target (replace the word bitcoin core with monero and openbazaar  with monerobazaar):

Integrate something like openbazaar + a messenger client (bitmessage) into Bitcoin core, with an option for toggling between full node and lite client.

Bitcoin Core isn't really in the business of making a monolithic wallet, but Monero could do one (assuming the first non-monolithic wallet ever comes out).

edit: and thus, the Smooth Road is born.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Let me link Grandma to anything other than a official supported easy to use GUI and see what happens.

I doubt Grandma will ever run her own node, regardless of GUI. In the CryptoFuture, I imagine Grandma will use a third-party solution specifically designed for grandmas   EDIT: or she will just enter her PIN at the register after the point-of-sale machine connects to her NFC powered keyring wallet. No GUI required.

If you've read any of my posts, you can probably tell I'm a big, big fan of user experience and accessibility. I just don't think it has much place in the core software, as it will ultimately not be a user end-point.

[smooth]

EDIT: for example, Poloniex doesn't need an XMR GUI to offer users a robust and intuitive crypto exchange... and XMR.TO and Shapeshift don't need an XMR GUI to offer users quick and easy btc conversion.

Except that is completely wrong. Poloniex can't offer a robust and intuitive crypto exchange for XMR unless users have the ability to
withdraw their coins in a manner consistent with the skill and comfort level. The same applies to all of the others more or less (less so for MyMonero).

It is also the case that spending coins left on an exchange, while possible, is inconvenient.

Part of the appeal of a private store of value is that you can actually store it yourself under your own control. Only then can you proceed to use it by spending it (which in turn makes it attractive to offer services to people using Monero as a private store of value), but not before. Without a GUI many potential users can't do either.

I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with. I'm not saying GUI's aren't important. I'm saying they're products that should be left to third parties and are largely outside the scope of what the core software should include.

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

[dEBRUYNE]

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

[generalizethis]

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

[Hueristic]

Let me link Grandma to anything other than a official supported easy to use GUI and see what happens.

I doubt Grandma will ever run her own node, regardless of GUI. In the CryptoFuture, I imagine Grandma will use a third-party solution specifically designed for grandmas   EDIT: or she will just enter her PIN at the register after the point-of-sale machine connects to her NFC powered keyring wallet. No GUI required.

If you've read any of my posts, you can probably tell I'm a big, big fan of user experience and accessibility. I just don't think it has much place in the core software, as it will ultimately not be a user end-point.

First off grandma and most anyone else that will use crypto could care less about running a node. Logical fallacy (Straw Man) there.

The masses need a GUI released from the Core team for one reason only. TRUST, all the other reasons are quibblable (ohh did i make a word up: fails spell check).

AFA the bolded, in a perfect world yes. In reality a vast majority will not spend the time to do due diligence one something that is not backed by those they trust and unless XMR Dev's put on the Landing page that that (whatever wallet) is the official wallet (hence they are putting their word behind it) then nothing is going to get widely adopted. AFA the argument that many use different BTC wallets you forget that that is after the fact that they started with one supported wallet and diverged from there for whatever reason.

...
Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

Nope and Yup, not only the appearance but the trust of those supplying it without having to goto the effort to do the research.

[Arux]

Is Monero core in a compileable state yet? Can one build it and test it out?

compilable but not usable.

if your system is compiling fine bitmonerod, monero-core should be compiling too.

1) grab and prepare the source:

Code:

git clone https://github.com/mbg033/monero-core.git
cd monero-core
./get_libwallet_api.sh 

2) compile the qt part:

Code:

sudo apt-get install qtbase5-dev qt5-default qtdeclarative5-dev qml-module-qtquick-controls qml-module-qtquick-xmllistmodel
qmake
make

3) launch

Code:

release/monero-core

[dEBRUYNE]

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

Well, a webwallet (without 2FA) obviously poses more attack factors than a local wallet. Therefore, a local wallet to the extent of a GUI is not only more secure, but also generally perceived as more secure. Frankly, no one will really know what the impact will be, besides that it clearly gives the less-technical a (for them) more comfortable option to store their Monero. Furthermore, there simply is a learning curve to using the CLI, which a lot of people don't want to take on.

[smooth]

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Grandma would probably use MyMonero over the core GUI (though maybe not for longer-term storage of value). That is a good example of third party solutions starting to specialize.

By "generic" user I didn't mean grandma but a wide base of all sorts of users without specialization, and that's where MyMonero fails to hold up. That includes people who see the primary use of crypto today and for the indefinite future as a store of value, medium- to long-term speculative investment, or perhaps as a medium of exchange that is somewhere between reasonably and very private. In all of those cases many won't want to use a web wallet.

[ArticMine]

...

Grandma would probably use MyMonero over the core GUI (though maybe not for longer-term storage of value). That is a good example of third party solutions starting to specialize.

By "generic" user I didn't mean grandma but a wide base of all sorts of users without specialization, and that's where MyMonero fails to hold up. That includes people who see the primary use of crypto today and for the indefinite future as a store of value, medium- to long-term speculative investment, or perhaps as a medium of exchange that is somewhere between reasonably and very private. In all of those cases many won't want to use a web wallet.

I have to disagree here. People over the age of 55 were raised on cash and in many cases are very distrustful of third party payment providers and are very fearful of identity theft. They are also very privacy conscious. Furthermore they are far more likely to adopt the technology of their grand children than the technology of their children. For a senior the strongest appeal of crypto currency is likely its cash like properties, (cash one can use on the Internet) since that is their comfort level.  If they adopt a crypto currency it is highly unlikely that they will then turn it into the very thing they are trying to avoid.

As a baby boomer, my take is that the baby boomers can be a very receptive demographic for Monero, but I doubt we will buy in if we are sold the same technology we rejected 20 years ago.

[smooth]

@ArticMine to be clear you are disagreeing only with my first sentence. The rest about third party solutions specializing for different markets applies equally to the older segment given what you have suggested about their preferences. For example, they might like Trezor or other hardware wallets.

My point is that even now (with few grandmas involved) MyMonero does not serve as a good baseline solution, it is specialized to those who want convenience and don't care much about security or avoiding reliance on third parties. I could also say that about a GUI based on the earlier (pre-LMDB) implementation. Since the current version can cold sync in a lot of cases (not all -- older or slower computers or very slow net connections can't be avoided) in an hour or so, uses minimal memory and acceptable amounts of storage, it is more suitable for more segments of users (if not numerically more users), though still not everyone.