meh. Being Cherokee means I don't have to care about the lesser races.

Just kidding, though I do have fun saying that when people raise this blather. My actual opinion is that all races and groups are equally worthless. It's individuals (and to a lesser extent teams and corporations) that make a difference for good or ill, and their skin color has nothing to do with it. Cultures tend to have good and bad points. That's really where the "opinion on America" falls, culture.

American culture has some very good points. We have a deep seated belief in liberty, even though the actuality of it has escaped us, and we are, as a rule, rather innovative. Or at least were. But in recent years our culture has embraced fear as something useful and desirable. This is NOT a positive. We are also extremely litigious, to the point of absurdity. This needs to go as well. We have in recent years abandoned our distrust of those in authority, and this is suicidal. Our country was founded on such distrust, and it was not misplaced. The more we cooperate and/or ignore their depredations, the bolder they get. The way the cops act now would have gotten them killed in my youth. Not by criminals, but by common citizens who felt (RIGHTLY!) that their life was not the business of a hired thug. And that's the bottom of the ladder.

Those at the top are so disconnected from the common experience as to be a separate species. Watch C-SPAN once in a while (if you can handle the mind numbing stupidity) and you'll see what I mean. They care a great deal about their power, but the know jack shit about the man on the street. And couldn't care less, other than a few months prior to polling time. Not even very much then, as the Republicrat superparty controls the voting.

I chose Israel as a response because you brought it up. I am not oblivious nor ignorant to the problems in the middle east. I'm not a young man, nor have I lived with my head in the sand.

I used it as an example only because you did.

I could list off a whole lot of examples of foreign aid gone wrong. Finding a few that went well is much more difficult. Something given is of no value, unless value is exchanged, thus "biting the hand that feeds" and all of that.

I am opposed to ALL foreign aid, other than the one that has historically been prove to work every time. Free trade. Ideas pass borders as easily as goods and services. Bastiat said it well. "Where goods and services do not cross borders, soldiers will".

I am an agorist. I do NOT believe that government is a "necessary evil". Evil, yes. Necessary? No!

America is a place. The United States of America is a corporation. All corporations exist to further the profit of their shareholders. Exactly who those shareholders are is somewhat shadowy in this case, but it sure as hell is not the "citizens" who in this day and age should be called subjects.

The America I grew up in no longer exists. We every day resemble Germany circa 1936 to a greater extent. I fear this. When I was young a great many of my friends traveled to foreign lands for various reasons. They were all happy to come home, even though they had fun. Fast forward 20 years (about ten years ago) and they started going on holiday to Europe or Asia and not coming home. Because they found better conditions for themselves over there. Mind you, they were NOT looking to leave the US hegemon, they were on vacation! Yet they found other places more attractive than the land of their birth.

Now I'm seeing this a lot. People are getting tired of living in a place where your every move is monitored. Even if they don't DO anything to you, they are still watching. Voyeurism isn't a great governmental paradigm any more than the territorial ambitions.

As for "appropriate reparations", what's that? Should we go down the road of the treaty of Versailles and guarantee future problems? Or what?

Personally, I'd like to see the United States say to the world: "Well, we tried. We have found that we were misguided. Good luck, happy trading, you're on your own". And then pull the fuck OUT. We do NOT need a huge military presence round the globe. We do NOT need to keep playing power games with the various polities around the world. We only need to trade with them. If our ideals are correct, we should not violate them. A hand in friendship and trade, entangling alliances with NONE. People see. If they like what they see, they emulate it. If they emulate it and their leaders won't, the leaders suddenly find themselves outnumbered, and either conform or get cast out. If you don't believe that, look to history. as little as 3 centuries ago everybody KNEW that the only "proper" form of government was a monarchy. Yet the monarchies faded away, didn't they? How many are there now? Ten?

Now the dominant paradigm, at least in discussion, is democracy. Another proven failure, because it never actualizes, but instead becomes a republic dominated by the loudest voices or the most coin. Usually both. It's inherent flaws are too many to list in a simple forum post, but there it is.

Final thought for today is that hating the United States of America and hating America are two different things. I don't hate America. It is my homeland. I was born in western Washington, I am of mixed ancestry but that includes a great deal of Cherokee. My roots run deep to America, Norway, Germany, Scotland and England. I have no problem with any of those peoples. Just their governments. As an outsider, it's easy to criticize another nation. It is much harder to be objective about your own. I tried to work within the system for many years, and found that at root, it cannot be reformed. This is because it WORKS AS INTENDED for those in power. Not so much for the vast majority of us. They can bail out a corporation for billions of dollars, but will hardly throw a bone to the people from whom they took the money, and future. The idea of a government accountable to the people is nice. It hasn't happened once on a scale larger than a small city. And it never will, as it CANNOT. Thus, decentralization makes sense if you are aiming for the best result for the largest number of people. This was well understood in early American history. It got lost along the way. People like me are trying to bring it back. For this we are called unpatriotic and even treasonous when we quote Thomas Jefferson and his posse.

I smell something rotten in a swamp a bit north of Maryland.

Some people don't get the idea that trade differential is a valid investment strategy. It drives me nuts. Bitcoin is a form of currency, i.e. a unit of exchange. If you use your brain, instead of "pure" idealism, you will always make the best exchange you can at any given moment.

Bitcoin is not going to replace the dollar. A cryptocurrency might in the future, but I doubt it. It does, and likely will continue to, work as a secondary currency and as a store of value to some extent. Not as good as gold for that, but better than most anything else right now. It's advantage over gold is that it can be transferred nearly instantly.

There's nothing wrong with your math or your thought process on this.

edited for fucked up quote tags

+1

I was going to address some of the diatribe about Israel, but maybe I shouldn... Ahh, fuck it. The issue was raised, I'm responding.

I have no problem with Jews. I have a huge problem with Israel. Specifically, I have a huge problem with Israel being backed by the United States of America. If Israel wants to get all medieval on their neighbors, they can AND SHOULD do it on their own hook. The British Mandate is over.

That's a specific. In general, I have a big problem with ALL foreign aid at the taxpayer's expense when our own nation is crumbling to ruin in a lot of places. I just moved from one of them. Western Pennsylvania looks and feels like the pictures coming out of the Soviet Union circa 1980. I now live in Idaho, where I have spent the majority of my adult life, and it's still pretty affluent. I have traveled all over the USA, having now been in 41 states, and a whole lot of it is a mess. If we are to have a central government (which I oppose vehemently, but it exists) then FFS can't they focus at least some of the loot they steal on fixing OUR problems instead of exacerbating problems abroad? We only need the rest of the world for trade. We do not need to interfere in their affairs, for good or ill. They are human and capable. If our alleged leaders continue down the path they've been pursuing, it will cease to enrich even them when our land goes up in the flames of revolution.

Another big beef I have with them is their "righteous" attitude when their poking at people causes a backlash. If the situations were reversed and, say, Mexico invade us because of some made up or even real slight, would our leaders claim that Mexico was in the right? (Nothing against Mexico, just that they are close by and populous. It is merely an example.)

From my travels and having grown up here, I have to say that over all, Americans are fairly decent people. Our rulers are not. At all. They are clueless about their own backyard, arrogant in their dismissal of the opinions and plight of their serfs, and downright dangerous to foreigners. They need to go. Before the situation becomes unrecoverable, if that hasn't already happened.

Been there, not far from it now. Take it with a grain of salt. This place can get pretty vicious, but read between the vitriol and there are some incredibly talented and smart people here. I've learned a hell of a lot just reading. And stepping on my dick from time to time Welcome to the Brave New World of Bitcoin.

Yes. Wizkid runs eligius, Luke-jr wrote the underying software (eloi) Slush is a different guy altogether. That much I'm sure of. I think Luke is also heavily involved in running eligius, but that's speculation.  (I lurked for a long time before I registered )

I am not going clear back through the thread, but I was under the impression that their 28nm devices will be based on the Bitmine Coincraft chips. These guys appear to be assemblers, rather than a straight up engineering company. Technobit confirmed early on that they were working with AMT, so I was under that impression from the beginning. They are packagers/resellers with a few tweaks of their own. Much like a house brand PC. Nothing wrong with that model, and it is likely to be the ongoing paradigm in mining as it gains traction. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just buy the components to make a decent one?

Before I get jumped, this isn't an endorsement. I'm still pretty neutral on this company. I do think they are real, and I do think they are trying. Their forum presence has been a bit confrontational. That being said, the level of hate that exist on these fora would cause me to respond in a less than stellar manner if I didn't have half a lifetime of dealing with the general public behind me. My overall impression is a few guys trying really hard to make a niche business work, but who haven't much experience dealing with people. In all things, people are a problem. For every enthusiastic customer there are twenty to a hundred who just came in to bitch, and at least ten that are scamming. This is the way of business. But most people starting a business don't realize it. Anyone who has worked in a customer service oriented job realizes really quickly that there is a good reason why "customer" starts with "cust".

I do not think that the demands for videos and proof of existence are unreasonable, but in many cases the reasonable was stated in a prematurely accusatory manner. Yeah, there are a lot of scams out there, and yes, due diligence is due. But a little civility goes a long way. Not all ASIC companies are Butterfly Labs. This is cutting edge technology, and we all want it yesterday. To get it tomorrow means a lot of it goes out untested. This is the nature of the beast. KNC and Bitfury delivered, and they both had problems that would have been solved by a normal test routine. But that routine, to get consumer level goods, generally is 12-18 months. Given that, there are basically only three choices a company getting into this market has.

One, they can straight up say that. We'll have it ready in a year. Honest, but not a good strategy in such a volatile market.

Two, lie. Do the BFL thing. 'nuff said on that. The results are not good and carry over to the whole industry.

Three. Develop the machines in secret, and only announce when the development is completely finished. While definitely the safest course, it's also the most likely to fail in the market, because someone with more balls is going to jump in and do it without the long term development. (which I guess is a fourth model). The problem being that they WILL ship a number of defective units that way, creating a further nightmare for the company. Even if the majority work right, there will be a few that don't, and those machine's owners will raise a hue and cry that makes the company appear far worse than they are. But right now, that appears to be the only viable option for any company that isn't working entirely under a cloak of invisibility.

With the recent news of several banks recognizing bitcoin as a force to be reckoned with, the popularity of the whole experiment is set to rise. Possibly exponentially, thus making it imperative that the mining equipment manufacturers cut some corners or be left behind. That can be annoying for all involved, but it is the way of things right now. When there are no good solutions, you try to pick a winner.

That's my say for the watchers and potential customers. AMT, now I'm looking at you.

You have acknowledged one of your major problems, and need to acknowledge the other. The one you have acknowledged is that your PR sucks. It does. I want you to succeed, so don't take that as a slight, it's just something that needs addressed. It would be good for you to hire a PR company, if you can afford it, or find a starving student that will work cheap for the experience. Should be plenty of them in and around Philly.

The one you haven't really acknowledged, in fact have pooh-poohed, is this forum. All things Bitcoin eventually come here. Whether for good or ill, it's still the case. Make your peace with the majority here, and it will be good for you company. Tone down your responses, no matter how much your blood is boiling, and you will do better. Just because somebody deserves to be pimp slapped doesn't make it make good business sense. I would suggest that you task a guy to doing little else but dealing with this fractious forum. Instruct him not to lie, but to ACKNOWLEDGE the people freaking out. My background is food service, where your customer service window is approximately one minute. That's how long it takes to lose a customer who walks in and is unacknowledged. By comparison, you have a lot of time. If you responded during business hours every day except weekends, even if the response was "I'll get back to you on that" (as long as yo do) then people will feel acknowledged and simmer down.

PR and customer service are a bitch. There is nothing you can do to change that. But you CAN make it a lot easier on yourselves by utilising the above suggestions.

Best of luck to you, and if all goes well for both of us, I might be taking a flight up there in February to buy a miner from ya.

Kevin Biomech.

Got no opinion on Bulgaria, but Martin has been a stand up guy on the Technobit side as near as I can tell.

It is a bit disturbing. I would have thought they would have a bank in PA, though having just moved from that hellpit, I can say that their banking system is ridiculous even by comparison to other places in the US.

I dunno what to think. Sometimes they seem like a real endeavor, and sometimes like rank amateurs. I don't really smell a scam, but I'm not smellin' roses either. I hope they're real. It would be nice to have a US based manufacturer/assembler where I could pick up in person. It's a cheap flight to philly from Boise, and in a couple of months I should be in a position to do something like that.

Will continue watching.

Because bankruptcy courts deal in dollar value. They would view bitcoin as a salable asset for forfeiture to the estate's liabilities.

The unfortunate truth is that it depends on the day. It does, however, pave the way for any number of civil suits. Unfortunately, a judgment for civil relief can be discharged in bankruptcy.

I think Lost Dutchman is correct. Most of you are screwed. Which really sucks, even to the observer, because it will make bitcoin related transactions even more "suspect" by the general public.

However, if they do have the bitcoins, I can't see a US court demanding them return the bitcoins, but rather the dollar value of the equipment purchased. So, if as has been speculated, they are sitting on a large chunk of coin, the courts (bankruptcy and otherwise) could order the bitcoin sold for dollars and disburse it to the creditors in the bankruptcy case. Direct investors would likely be reimbursed ahead of customers, but you still might get something. Considering the difference in bitcoin price from august to now, maybe quite a bit. But this would only be likely IF they are sitting on the coins and didn't blow through all the monies they collected.

I would guess this is due to their association with Technobit. They are in Bulgaria, if I recall correctly.

No.
You don't. They will tax you for TEN YEARS if you renounce your citizenship. Here in the US, that is. Yes, some other countries actually allow their subjects to permanently leave.

But I was referring to right of exit from the organizations. If I declare that I am no longer a subject of the United States of America, then I will be ignored for the most part, taxed as if I were, and then jailed if I refuse. On my own land. Even if I am self sufficient. If I object in more than words, I will be shot and killed by the "police" (thugs is a better word, but I don't want to be that insulting. To thugs.) If I want to have no part of some ridiculous, dangerous boondoggle that my rulers have decided upon, I have no choice. If I want to have weapons, I have to seek their permission. If I want to run a business, I need their license. If I want to drive, I need their license. If I want to BREATHE, I likely commit a crime in their "codified law".

There is no doublespeak here. I do not hold two contradictory beliefs without question. I question everything, and after many MANY years I have come to the inescapable conclusion that government in it's current and historical form is untenable if we are to have a long term future.

Anarchy specifically means "without a king". Society will always be organized. Anarchists are seeking to change it to a more bottom up societal model, rather than top down. WE never said their would be no rules, we said no RULERS. Your side is the one who keeps claiming that we need rulers.

I am saying you are wrong, and I say that all of society EXCEPT government and the few stray criminals they don't suborn disprove you. People do not run amok simply because there's no cop in sight. It's just like the other religious arguments. If you are gonna run amok because there isn't a cop, or no god, or no king, then you are going to run amok when there is too.

And as to MY argument being circular, bullshit. I never once tried to claim that government was any different than any other organized mafia except in their perceived legitimacy. They act by the same means for the same ends, and they always have. The only technical difference I see is that other organized criminals are amateurs by comparison. You don't get half the population defending the exploits of the Crips or the Bloods, but look at the Demopublicans and Republicrats!

This.

I grew up during the beginning of the computer revolution. By comparison, from my observations, the KNC devices are free of defect. The early "consumer" computers did not function without tinkering. My first computer was an IMSAI Altair. I still have fond memories of that machine, even though my watch has a much more powerful processor now. But it was not "plug it in and it works". You had to have quite a bit of knowledge JUST to plug it in! And then you had to get it to talk to a terminal (Televideo 101 in my case). Then, if you wanted to retain any of your data, you had to either build a floppy disk controller or a tape deck controller on an S-100 template (or spend a few hundred 1974 dollars to have someone do it) by hand, build a cable to interface with the damn thing, and hope it worked. THEN you had to code in a bootstrap routine (again, by hand, often by punch card in those days, though I used the terminal). From there you could program in such cool things as terminal emulation, or get a C/PM OS which had it built in (but not the basic bootstrap, that had to be hand coded) and connect up to your high speed 140 baud modem.

It was a great time, despite how it sounds now. My ONLY problem with these highly experimental ASIC devices is that I couldn't raise the money to get one. If I had, I'd be having a blast tweaking it.

Let's face it, Bitcoin is in itself a grand experiment. It's as fraught with danger of failure as early computers. When I was a kid, mos people thought that computers were strange, and never would amount to anything. Now everyone has one and we live in a wired world. Bitcoin is where computers were in the early '70s. If it succeeds, yeah, there will be properly tested machines at walmart. But that time is in the future. Those of you who got in on it now are the vanguard. It may end in failure and ashes, but it might blow up the way computers did. Either way, you'll have one hell of a story to tell your kids. They won't believe you, just like my son don't believe there was a time without the internet or personal computers or CD's...

But you will know. And you'll remember the tribulations of the early days in a way different light than the current frustration. IBM, Intel and Microsoft didn't change the world, they just provided the tools. WE changed the world.

Up to this point I thought you were serious.

Look at the tax rates. LOOK AT THEM. There is no way in hell it would ever cost me that much to defend myself, my family, and my property. If I blew off a thousand rounds a day in practice and installed prison level security, it wouldn't cost that much.

And that's merely monetary. In "the land of the f(r)ee" it is literally impossible to be alive without committing pseudo crimes that are considered felonies.

In Pennsylvania, they wait till it's big enough to swallow a car whole. Then they call it fixed.

An undisputed right of exit. No anarchist, whether in a commune or walking the earth, would claim you as his property. No government, ever, has failed to do so.

Thanks. You just agreed with me.

codified law is unnecessary in non defective humans. Not much you can do about psychopaths except to avoid them and defend yourself where the need arises.

But governments absolutely NEED psychopaths in order to function. Thus the need for laws.

Insomnia doesn't discriminate, though I've seen a lot of clever folks who deal with it. I'm a night person. I can sleep just fine in the morning. But life isn't really allowing that right now, so insomnia it is. Grumble.

+1

This is why you don't get called out often, and he does, even when you say essentially the same thing.

I honestly expected them to perform worse, overall, than they appear to have done. I do hope they re introduce the Jupiter, as I can't see any good reason not to. And I want one or two

The Neptune is interesting, to say the least, but 13K is a lot. I can almost certainly come up with 5K in a month or so, but 13? Gotta look at alternatives, and I want a KNC miner, dammit.

I am (slowly) writing a rather long post on these subjects, but here's kind of a short form.

Those who will not conform in a given society would likely move, as they would find it impossible to interact with those around them. Those who aggress, on the other hand, would likely find themselves on the wrong end of a gun sooner or later. NOT just for "chewing gum" to use the previous example, but rather such things as robbery, rape, attempted murder, etcetera. Actual crimes.

I think you'll find that's another thing that most of us (anarchists) subscribe to: For a thing to be a crime there absolutely MUST be a victim. Defining something as undesirable (by whatever criteria) doesn't make it a crime in the anarchist's philsosophies. The idea is that like minded people will tend to cooperate and accommodate one another. This in itself will lead to a greater decentralization as people have a lot of disparate ideas on how to interact with one another and disparate goals as well.

No matter what form of social organization exists, there will always be a small element that defies it, and an even smaller element that is operating with ill intent. Anarchism seeks to reduce the opportunity for the truly criminal, whereas statism generally just tries to make it so PETTY crime is difficult, while openly rewarding truly large criminal enterprises, such as wars. Criminals are opportunistic parasites. All societies depend on the productive to exist. Anarchism both removes the incentive for parasitic activity and punishes it harshly by default, whereas the statist model, particularly democracy and communism, openly reward it. Not openly as in a stated goal, but more along the lines of "the best place to hide something is in plain sight".