[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency

[mhps]

I believe there is a big opportunity for PPCoin in highlighting the 1% POS minting yield and creating a unique value proposition by defining it as the 'Savers' crypto currency. 

If that works, what if someone comes up a copy of PPC and offer 2% "interest"? It will eat PPC's lunch. Actually why stop at 2% ? What about 10%? 50% ? You see my drift. In the real world you can't offer unlimitedly high interest rate because the interest rate is ultimately determined by how much return of investment you can get if you borrow someone's money to invest. If you offer an interest that is too high, you can't afford it.  Can someone tell me what prevents a crypto currency from offering a high interest rate? Is it the same factor that crippled PoW alt-coins that offer very short time between each new block (network latency)? If that is true, PPC is lighyears away from that limit. I see possibility of  a much higher interest rate.

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[kong2029]

I believe there is a big opportunity for PPCoin in highlighting the 1% POS minting yield and creating a unique value proposition by defining it as the 'Savers' crypto currency. 

If that works, what if someone comes up a copy of PPC and offer 2% "interest"? It will eat PPC's lunch. Actually why stop at 2% ? What about 10%? 50% ? You see my drift. In the real world you can't offer unlimitedly high interest rate because the interest rate is ultimately determined by how much return of investment you can get if you borrow someone's money to invest. If you offer an interest that is too high, you can't afford it.  Can someone tell me what prevents a crypto currency from offering a high interest rate? Is it the same factor that crippled PoW alt-coins that offer very short time between each new block (network latency)? If that is true, PPC is lighyears away from that limit. I see possibility of  a much higher interest rate.

The key is about getting to critical mass.  At the moment the 1% POS mint is an advantage vis-a-vis other cryptos.  If this advantage can be leveraged to secure a place as one of the 'mainstream cryptos' if and when such a group develops, then newer cryptos that have more attractive features may not be able to compete because people won't place any value in them.  A great example of belief over technology is PPC vs. BTC itself.  PPC has everything BTC has and more but the fact that BTC was there first and has greater penetration, market share, and users means that the currency carries a far higher value.  At the end of the day, all currencies, whether fiat or crypto only have value because a critical mass of people collectively believe in them.

The 1% is an advantage now and over the near term while competing currencies with similar features don't exist or have little traction.  The 1% is actually not interest at all.  A better way to describe it would be that it's inflation.  Interest is a part of the market that will eventually develop as a lending market develops and is not something that can be built into the codebase.  Inflation in tightly controlled amounts is fine.  I think the general rule of thumb is that as long as demand increases faster than supply there is no concern about some built-in inflation.  The code-based scarcity constraint is one of the factors that allow people to have confidence that a crypto will function as a store of value.  Higher code-based inflation may have the opposite effect and destroy confidence.

The bottom line is that better terms or features do not necessarily mean a competing crypto will gain traction.  I do think, however, that until such a time that PPC gains critical mass it is vulnerable as are all alternative cryptos.

[jjiimm_64]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

[kokojie]

anyone know why PPC is dropping?

[detail3]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

Is your wallet unlocked for minting?

[jjiimm_64]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

Is your wallet unlocked for minting?

Yes, it is unlocked.  have you gotten any stake coins?

[Yurizhai]

anyone know why PPC is dropping?

Why wouldn't it? Development/news seems stagnant.

[jjiimm_64]

Really? It's certainly the most active altcoin development-wise.

I would have to disagree with this.. frc just released a new client that has a new diff algo to minimize hash crash. 

why do you say that ppc is the most active?

[TheSeven]

Really? It's certainly the most active altcoin development-wise.

I would have to disagree with this.. frc just released a new client that has a new diff algo to minimize hash crash. 

Well, what about PPC simply not needing this kind of mostly untested emergency fixes, because it is not vulnerable to rapidly changing hashrate at all?

[detail3]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

Is your wallet unlocked for minting?

Yes, it is unlocked.  have you gotten any stake coins?

I'm not unlocked honestly.  Keep in mind that POS is random as well, yes you could 'expect' to get a block at some point, but still its all probabilities.  The reward for a block is a coin, btw...your stake is the coins that you used to find the block iirc.

[TheSeven]

I'm not unlocked honestly.  Keep in mind that POS is random as well, yes you could 'expect' to get a block at some point, but still its all probabilities.  The reward for a block is a coin, btw...your stake is the coins that you used to find the block iirc.

Actually, the reward for a PoS block is 0.01 * coinyears destroyed, so whether you find a PoS block early or late (or even only mine PoS intermittently) doesn't directly impact your rewards.
There is an indirect impact though: If it takes you longer to find that proof of stake block, the probability that you'll move the funds before they've been used in a proof of stake block increases.

[detail3]

I'm not unlocked honestly.  Keep in mind that POS is random as well, yes you could 'expect' to get a block at some point, but still its all probabilities.  The reward for a block is a coin, btw...your stake is the coins that you used to find the block iirc.

Actually, the reward for a PoS block is 0.01 * coinyears destroyed, so whether you find a PoS block early or lage (or even only mine PoS intermittently) doesn't directly impact your rewards.
There is an indirect impact though: If it takes you longer to find that proof of stake block, the probability that you'll move the funds before they've been used in a proof of stake block increases.

Ah, I see, thank you theseven.

[brenzi]

All of these trends lead me to the new idea that I would like everyone to consider.  I believe there is a big opportunity for PPCoin in highlighting the 1% POS minting yield and creating a unique value proposition by defining it as the 'Savers' crypto currency. 

1% interest has no real effect for savers. It is just slow inflation on money supply. After one year you might have 1% more PPCoins but this doesn't let you buy more real goods just by itself. Only a rise in PPCoin value does. So there is no advantage over bitcoin at all due to such an interest rate.

The real advantage of PPC to me is an ecological one: All other major cryptos will soon waste an awful lot of energy. An ecological problem of that scale would most probably contribute to an economical one (externalized cost a.s.o.)

So PPCoin advertisement to me should focus on:

• explain people the wastefulness of BTC and LTC (this is not well done today. The PPC Paper just states the wastefulness of PoW but doesn't explain it in detail)
• show them why PPCoin is better in this regard
• And, by the way: Show people that PPCoin is backed and developed by more people than just Sunny King. This needs to become a community project (in reality and perception) instead of a one man show to build trust.

One other point to make is about volatility.  When BTC trades in a range from 50 - 260 USD in just a few days, the 1% minting yield becomes irrelevant even though it beats fiat rates.  A liquid market is important but a stable market is equally important.  If you look at the lack of major volatility in BTC over the last week and in the longer periods prior to the last run-up and crash, this is the kind of market that would be ideal for PPC proliferation and adoption.  A slow increase in BTC combined with a growing belief in the superiority of PPCoin for savers would be ideal because holders would get the 1% yield and a steady capital appreciation.

Please check my thread on PPC money supply over at ppcointalk.org. My concern is that PPCoin could be even slightly more volatile than BTC by design.

[kong2029]

All of these trends lead me to the new idea that I would like everyone to consider.  I believe there is a big opportunity for PPCoin in highlighting the 1% POS minting yield and creating a unique value proposition by defining it as the 'Savers' crypto currency. 

1% interest has no real effect for savers. It is just slow inflation on money supply. After one year you might have 1% more PPCoins but this doesn't let you buy more real goods just by itself. Only a rise in PPCoin value does. So there is no advantage over bitcoin at all due to such an interest rate.

The real advantage of PPC to me is an ecological one: All other major cryptos will soon waste an awful lot of energy. An ecological problem of that scale would most probably contribute to an economical one (externalized cost a.s.o.)

So PPCoin advertisement to me should focus on:

• explain people the wastefulness of BTC and LTC (this is not well done today. The PPC Paper just states the wastefulness of PoW but doesn't explain it in detail)
• show them why PPCoin is better in this regard
• And, by the way: Show people that PPCoin is backed and developed by more people than just Sunny King. This needs to become a community project (in reality and perception) instead of a one man show to build trust.

One other point to make is about volatility.  When BTC trades in a range from 50 - 260 USD in just a few days, the 1% minting yield becomes irrelevant even though it beats fiat rates.  A liquid market is important but a stable market is equally important.  If you look at the lack of major volatility in BTC over the last week and in the longer periods prior to the last run-up and crash, this is the kind of market that would be ideal for PPC proliferation and adoption.  A slow increase in BTC combined with a growing belief in the superiority of PPCoin for savers would be ideal because holders would get the 1% yield and a steady capital appreciation.

Please check my thread on PPC money supply over at ppcointalk.org. My concern is that PPCoin could be even slightly more volatile than BTC by design.

Some good points here, brenzi- glad to hear your thoughts.  I already have seen your post on money supply at ppcointalk.  As you suggest, I'll move my response over there.   

[kong2029]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

In response to your first question about FRC, my opinion is that the demurrage concept that forces the spending of Freicoin is poorly planned.  This assumes you have places to spend it.  The economic theory behind it is that if you force the spending of a currency you increase the money multiplier, thus spurring economic activity.  Without places to spend your FRC you just have a currency that shrinks.  I think it's interesting... and doomed.

[ewibit]

since a few months I have ppcoins in my wallet
why do I have there Stake: 0.00 PPC?
(thought I get some if I have some after a time...)
TIA

[TheSeven]

since a few months I have ppcoins in my wallet
why do I have there Stake: 0.00 PPC?
(thought I get some if I have some after a time...)
TIA

How many ppcoins do you have in that wallet, and for how long have they been sitting there without moving?
(Note that any outgoing transaction can move funds of arbitrary incoming transactions in your wallet.)

[ewibit]

How many ppcoins do you have in that wallet, and for how long have they been sitting there without moving?
(Note that any outgoing transaction can move funds of arbitrary incoming transactions in your wallet.)

since 17.03.13 ongoing incoming from mining (~2k)

any outgoing transaction can move funds of arbitrary incoming transactions

sorry , I don't understand this - why?
(have I to run always the ppcoind or always send ppcoins around?)
for me proof of stake is still a mystery 

[Sunny King]

FYI cryptoblackjack now support PPC play.
http://cryptoblackjack.kicks-ass.net/index.php?coin_type=10

Kudos to Petr1fied for a nice game!

[TheSeven]

How many ppcoins do you have in that wallet, and for how long have they been sitting there without moving?
(Note that any outgoing transaction can move funds of arbitrary incoming transactions in your wallet.)

since 17.03.13 ongoing incoming from mining (~2k)

any outgoing transaction can move funds of arbitrary incoming transactions

sorry , I don't understand this - why?
(have I to run always the ppcoind or always send ppcoins around?)
for me proof of stake is still a mystery 

You should run ppcoind all the time, but shouldn't move around any funds if you want to mine proof of stake.

I'll assume that your balance consists of ~50 mined blocks with ~400 ppcoins each, and that you have mined them at a mostly constant rate.
This means that you mine about ~0.7 blocks per day, so ~29 of your blocks are older than 30 days. The younger ones are not eligible for proof of stake generation yet.

The proof of stake difficulty drops linear with the number of coin days destroyed in the "invested" funds, but it ignores the first 30 days. So if you have 400 coins that are 31 days old, the number of coin days destroyed for this calculation would be (31 - 30) * 400 = 400. This means that the chance to find a block (for each second) is 400 / (2^32 * pos_difficulty). The difficulty is ~3.22 at the moment, so your chance to find a block in one second using these funds is ~0.0000029%. Extrapolated to a day that is ~0.25%.

However this doesn't mean that you would find a block using these funds every 400 days (1/0.0025), because the probabilty increases as the funds get older. So on the next day, the probability to find a block would already be 0.5%, then 0.75%, and so on. (Up to a maximum of 60 counting days IIRC.)

Now this holds true for all of your unspent coins. So if we assume that you have 28 blocks that are older than 30 days, with these ages (in days):
31, 32, 34, 35, 37, 38, 40, 41, 42, 44, 45, 47, 48, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 64, 65, 67, 68, 70
The probabilities of all of those will of course add up. If I calculated things correctly, this would mean that if your ppcoind would have been running all day (with an unlocked wallet), you should have generated about 1.5 proof of stake blocks (on average) today.

Sunny, please correct me if I'm wrong...