[ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency

[RoadTrain]

and how about freicoin.. does frc offer anything as the 'spendable' type of alt.?


edit:  also, i have plenty of coinage avail in my ppc client for minting. but i have yet to see any listed as 'Stake'

In response to your first question about FRC, my opinion is that the demurrage concept that forces the spending of Freicoin is poorly planned.  This assumes you have places to spend it.  The economic theory behind it is that if you force the spending of a currency you increase the money multiplier, thus spurring economic activity.  Without places to spend your FRC you just have a currency that shrinks.  I think it's interesting... and doomed.

Since when did people have to be encouraged to spend money? People should be encouraged to invest, and save but not spend.

It can't be one-sided. People should do all these things simultaneously: save, invest and spend. What to encourage depends only on current balance (or disbalance).
Otherwise is not possible under current economic system.

After all, it's spending that drives the economy.

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[mhps]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

[matauc12]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

[mhps]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

For one, if I don't want to have a local wallet I can still get PoS coins with PPCs I own. For two, if I can't get my wallet on-line often I can have accrued PoS income with pooled PoS mining which is online all the time.  For three, I can check how much PoS coins I have made by clinking on the pool URL and be done in a few seconds instead of firing up the local wallet and starting sync'ing...

[Sunny King]

What is the reason for not having a cap on the coin supply? What is the advantage that Sunny sees?

Due to the nature of proof-of-stake minting, there cannot be a fixed money supply cap. So then it is useless to have a cap on proof-of-work mining. The good thing about bitcoin's cap is that it's easier for users to understand that they are dealing with scarce digital commodity. But the 4-year halving schedule is artificial, why not 3 years? why not 2 years?. With ppcoin's minting design I look to gold for reference. First gold does not have fixed supply cap. Secondly gold mining's depletion rate is dependent on market participation, that is, the more miners look for gold, it depletes faster. So there I found the answer to ppcoin's proof-of-work minting formula, I think its scarcity property is yet another contribution of ppcoin project to the diversity of cryptocurrency designs.

[TheSeven]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

For one, if I don't want to have a local wallet I can still get PoS coins with PPCs I own. For two, if I can't get my wallet on-line often I can have accrued PoS income with pooled PoS mining which is online all the time.  For three, I can check how much PoS coins I have made by clinking on the pool URL and be done in a few seconds instead of firing up the local wallet and starting sync'ing...

With the way how proof-of-stake mining currently works this would enable the POS pool to steal your funds, not just the POS rewards.
There is a proposal how this could possibly be resolved, but as this requires a chain fork it will take a while before it lands.

[TheSeven]

Question:  Are the hash-rates for PPC reported on vircurex.com/ (3.3 TH/s) correct?  It would seem that this is just a calculation of the amount of hashing necessary to get 10 minute PoW blocks at present difficulty, but because few blocks are PoW the actual rate is significantly lower?  What if any hash-rate numbers do PPC developers trust?

The average PoW hash rate throughout the last ~3 days is a ~565GH/s.
(Yes, I just calculated that by hand, I really need to build a tool for that.)

I've finally implemented network hash rate estimation on my pool's web site.
Check this out: http://theseven.bounceme.net/~theseven/pool/netstats

51% attack hash rate is the hashrate that you would need to have in order to generate 50% of all blocks on average, if you have none of the other type of hash rate.
This assumes that this hashrate is already part of the network. If not, the hashrate needed for the attack would be twice that.
(Yes, a few Mini Rig SCs, if they would ever ship, could become dangerous to PPC, regardless of proof of stake...)

[Impaler]

Due to the nature of proof-of-stake minting, there cannot be a fixed money supply cap. So then it is useless to have a cap on proof-of-work mining. The good thing about bitcoin's cap is that it's easier for users to understand that they are dealing with scarce digital commodity. But the 4-year halving schedule is artificial, why not 3 years? why not 2 years?. With ppcoin's minting design I look to gold for reference. First gold does not have fixed supply cap. Secondly gold mining's depletion rate is dependent on market participation, that is, the more miners look for gold, it depletes faster. So there I found the answer to ppcoin's proof-of-work minting formula, I think its scarcity property is yet another contribution of ppcoin project to the diversity of cryptocurrency designs.

Thank you Sunny! Much appreciated. You might want to include some of this on the faq page at ppcoin.com. The more insight people have into the design the better. It will also mean less repeated questions.

Thanks again.  

Actually I would argue that the demurrage code implemented in Freicoin now provides the technical solution to this problem, the increase in monetary base from PoS minting can be balanced by an equal amount of demurrage.  Everyone would still engage in PoS mining to keep their current balance as to not mine would be to forfeit ones PoS minting while still paying demurrage.  The complete stability of the money supply could not in principle be guaranteed as lost wallets or people not mining will invariably shrink the supply over time as in BTC.  Freicoin uses a continuous re-injection of a set amount of coins to become stable in the long term but PoS minting is dependent on existing not-lost coins so it would slowly shrink unless the amount of PoS minted coins per unit of time was made constant rather then proportional to the PoS miners stake size.

The economic consequences of this solution may not be to Sunny King's liking though as it would be significantly different from PPC as it exists now and may be outside the implicit social contract that exists in PPC.

[mhps]

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

With the way how proof-of-stake mining currently works this would enable the POS pool to steal your funds, not just the POS rewards.
There is a proposal how this could possibly be resolved, but as this requires a chain fork it will take a while before it lands.

If the PoS return, and the balance including the funds, can be independently verified how can the pool steal without showing?

[mhps]

I've finally implemented network hash rate estimation on my pool's web site.
Check this out: http://theseven.bounceme.net/~theseven/pool/netstats

Your site doesn't display correctly in China. All numbers are "loading..." or "?" The reason seems to be that cloudflare is block by the "Great Firewall".

[matauc12]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

For one, if I don't want to have a local wallet I can still get PoS coins with PPCs I own. For two, if I can't get my wallet on-line often I can have accrued PoS income with pooled PoS mining which is online all the time.  For three, I can check how much PoS coins I have made by clinking on the pool URL and be done in a few seconds instead of firing up the local wallet and starting sync'ing...

Those are all trivial points that are far out weighted by disadvantages.

Why not have a local wallet? It doesn't matter if your wallet is offline as long as its brought online once in a while.

You would really want to put 100% of your wealth in a pool for those little ''conveniences'' to mint around 1% of it yearly?

Pools were created to solve pretty substantial problems (possibility to make nothing but still paying the electricity bill). I don't really see the problems pooling PoS would solve.

Besides, if people want to put energy into creating infrastructures around PPC, time will be much better spent at a thousand places.

[matauc12]

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

With the way how proof-of-stake mining currently works this would enable the POS pool to steal your funds, not just the POS rewards.
There is a proposal how this could possibly be resolved, but as this requires a chain fork it will take a while before it lands.

If the PoS return, and the balance including the funds, can be independently verified how can the pool steal without showing?

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.

[mhps]

Any suggestions for further improvements?

How about pooled PoS mining? Just a thought.

There is no advantage to PoS pooling.

For one, if I don't want to have a local wallet I can still get PoS coins with PPCs I own. For two, if I can't get my wallet on-line often I can have accrued PoS income with pooled PoS mining which is online all the time.  For three, I can check how much PoS coins I have made by clinking on the pool URL and be done in a few seconds instead of firing up the local wallet and starting sync'ing...

Those are all trivial points that are far out weighted by disadvantages.

Why not have a local wallet? It doesn't matter if your wallet is offline as long as its brought online once in a while.

I know many people don't have local wallets. Local wallets are  a hassel to many normal people -- space taken by blockchain, backup, upgrading...

If you only put your wallet on line once in a long while, you loose the accrued  (compound) PoS income. It matters for savers. And savers are important for PPC.

You would really want to put 100% of your wealth in a pool for those little ''conveniences'' to mint around 1% of it yearly?

100% of my wealth? 0.001% is more close to it. More on that in my next post. Minting the PoS shares happens to be pretty much all I care about PPC.

Pools were created to solve pretty substantial problems (possibility to make nothing but still paying the electricity bill). I don't really see the problems pooling PoS would solve.

Sure I can see my problem is not yours.  It's all value judgement and opinions. I am just offering my thoughts.

Besides, if people want to put energy into creating infrastructures around PPC, time will be much better spent at a thousand places.

Like another round design of nice logos ?

[TheSeven]

You would really want to put 100% of your wealth in a pool for those little ''conveniences'' to mint around 1% of it yearly?

100% of my wealth? 0.001% is more close to it. More on that in my next post. Minting the PoS shares happens to be pretty much all I care about PPC.

Well, 100% of the PPC wealth that you want to earn proof of stake on, so you can view it as 100% of you compare risks with benefits.
Currently you need to basically transfer your funds to the pool (and hope on the pool paying them back on demand) if you want that pool to be able to mine proof of stake to you.

If such a thing is widely being asked for, we really need cold-locked transactions.

[mhps]

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.
[/quote]

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.

[matauc12]

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.
[/quote] one of the very main reason cryptos exist is to exactly that. To dissociate from banks. To decentralized.

Again, you're asking for a lot of trouble for something with no gain.

It's like putting a twin turbo in an echo knowing it will decrease your hp by 10.

[mhps]

Its not about secretly stealing. Unlike pool mining, which doesn't hold that much coins, PoS mining would be about putting a lot of wealth into one hand. Its asking to be scammed.

So basically, sending all your moonies to someone, for what benefit really? I can barely see a benefit, even the benefits look like a downside.

Well if PPC is going to be a currency instead of a quaint comodity to buy and hold, trusting a significant portion of your money to someone else has to happen. Pretty all my money in the real world are in the hands of a few financial institutes. There are social and legal infrastructures to prevent them to steal my fund (except for the QE and Cyprus type of stealing which are totally different matters). PPC has better develop that infrastructure so that a reasonablly reputable pool's running away with your coins is highly improbable.

one of the very main reason cryptos exist is to exactly that. To dissociate from banks. To decentralized.

Again, you're asking for a lot of trouble for something with no gain.

It's like putting a twin turbo in an echo knowing it will decrease your hp by 10.

Sorry for messing up the quote structure in my previous post.

There has to be a layer of financial institution to take care of daily transactions of a crypto-currency. You can't expect normal people to wait for 15min to an hour for his cryptocoin transaction to clear at the supermarket checkout.  Satoshi envisaged this layer. So depending on financial institutions is part of the plan all the time.

I don't think it will take all that much resource to run a PoS pool server because there doesn't seem to be all that much computation (transaction) going on. I imaging a laptop with a reliable network connection would be good enough for a thousand users  because the users don't want to disturb their coins often after all.  At any moment there are maybe 10 users moving fund and checking balance. Talking about energy efficiency.

[TheSeven]

I don't think it will take all that much resource to run a PoS pool server because there doesn't seem to be all that much computation (transaction) going on. I imaging a laptop with a reliable network connection would be good enough for a thousand users  because the users don't want to disturb their coins often after all.  At any moment there are maybe 10 users moving fund and checking balance. Talking about energy efficiency.

Right, that's a non-issue. The real issue is about trust/stealing funds. And why do things in an insecure way if you can do it securely (with cold-locked transactions)?

[markm]

This "problem" nicely matches a "problem" Open Transactions servers have.

With my Open Transactions server, I only issue stuff on the server for which I have the corresponding actual thing secured frozen in deep-freeze in a cold-wallet vault.

What incentive is there for anyone to tie up coins in such "frozen forever" deep freeze?

With PPcoin, I could maybe provide an incentive: I could make available to people the proof of stake mintage the frozen-forever coins can earn.

With all other coins I have had, myself,  to provide the frozen-forever coins the traded tokens on the server represent.

Maybe with PPCoin I could talk some people into providing some PPCoin for me to freeze forever so I can issue dPPC (digiPPCoin) tokens on the server.

-MarkM-

[ewibit]

You should run ppcoind all the time, but shouldn't move around any funds if you want to mine proof of stake.

I'll assume that your balance consists of ~50 mined blocks with ~400 ppcoins each, and that you have mined them at a mostly constant rate.
This means that you mine about ~0.7 blocks per day, so ~29 of your blocks are older than 30 days. The younger ones are not eligible for proof of stake generation yet.

The proof of stake difficulty drops linear with the number of coin days destroyed in the "invested" funds, but it ignores the first 30 days.

does this mean if I reboot the computer for service and have been offline for 1 hour that the first 30 days are beginning new?
TIA