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Author Topic: I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen.  (Read 507707 times)
Arriemoller
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December 04, 2013, 12:35:14 AM
 #661

What is your solution then? Hoe does your ideal  society pay for the common utilities?
Does everyone get to sponsor their own street light for example?

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 01:11:29 AM
 #662

Bitcoiners advocating taxation?!  For shame!

Taxes don't bother me excessively.  I don't mind pushing the wagon a little when it is weighted down with those who've had less fortune than I and could use a hand.  I'm much less thrilled about it when otherwise capable tax cheats climb aboard for a free ride.


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December 04, 2013, 02:02:21 AM
 #663

What is your solution then? Hoe does your ideal  society pay for the common utilities?
Does everyone get to sponsor their own street light for example?

does everyone sponsor their own toilet paper? no they just buy it if they want it... If you want something than you buy it, if you dont than you dont. its pretty simple.

for the rare case where free rider problems could potentially cause big problems, like national defense, if you care about the cause than it becomes incumbent upon you to take non violent measures to ensure that it gets funded.

Check the database of all people who contributed, if one of your friends isnt on it than confront him about it, if he still refuses than stop being his friend and tell all of his friends and encourage them to stop being his friend. Criticism lights up the exact same part in most peoples brains that physical pain does.

If you are an employer than automatically deduct it from your employees paychecks and use it to advertise the fact that you have a patriotic company.

If you are an entrepreneur than create a social contract, not made up statist bullishit social contract, i mean an actual piece of paper with actual words on it that people can chose to sign or not sign. You could use the crowd funding esque model where the contract only kicks in if X percent of the population sign it. In that contract people who value having national defense can formally agree to economically ostracize people who do not also sign that same contract and people can be held legally accountable for violating those terms. Assuming most of the people in the world value having a national defense, this would reverse the incentives and make it not in the interest of anyone to freeride, even the people who would have been willing to.

This could go on forever and ever. There is no need to wave guns around to force people to obey you unless what you are asking them to obey is a command for them to not to attack you.

*edit* this is off topic so if you want to discuss it at length than send a pm or make a different thread.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
Arriemoller
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December 04, 2013, 02:17:08 AM
 #664

No need to discuss. I used to be a libertarian so I know what you mean. I just slowly realized as I got older that it is as utopian as the communist societies.
Taxes are actually the simplest and easiest way to fund some things and democratic decisions are the easiest, and in some ways, fair way to decide how to distribute the taxes.
Having said that, I don't approve of the high taxes in some countrys.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 02:34:02 AM
 #665

No need to discuss. I used to be a libertarian so I know what you mean. I just slowly realized as I got older that it is as utopian as the communist societies.

Then you are regressing, not maturing.
Quote
Taxes are actually the simplest and easiest way to fund some things and democratic decisions are the easiest, and in some ways, fair way to decide how to distribute the taxes.

So far...

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 04, 2013, 02:59:26 AM
 #666

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:11:38 AM
 #667

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 04, 2013, 03:15:58 AM
 #668

thsi wont happen fo a few more years for sure.

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December 04, 2013, 03:22:45 AM
 #669

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

Bur, sir, that is exactly what I am saying and why I call it utopian.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the rest of your text.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:23:28 AM
 #670

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

You're inside it.  The lifeblood of any civilization is it's trade currency.  Up until Bitcoin, a dependable trade currency pretty much required the intervention into the monetary policy by the soveign, if only to garrantee that gold was indeed gold if it had his face on it.  This is no longer neccessary.  The transaction fees you may or may not choose to pay for are this society's voluntary taxation.  Nothing more is 'required' of you here.

Quote
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

Very well.  But by doing so, you also choose to accept the culpablity of the wrongs persecuted in your name, because you can't really separate the taxes that you pay for paving roads from those use to kill brown people that don't speak English.  You can imagine that your taxes are paying for education of inner city kids all you like, but someone is paying to catch, prosecute and incarcerate addicts for victimless crimes against the state.  I pay taxes as well, but I'm not under any illusions that anything more than a very small minority of it is used to pay for anything I would volutarily contribute towards.  My taxes are 'protection' money, from the greatest protection racket around, and there is nothing noble about it at all.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Arriemoller
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December 04, 2013, 03:24:07 AM
 #671

thsi wont happen fo a few more years for sure.

You think?  Wink

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:24:48 AM
 #672

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

Bur, sir, that is exactly what I am saying and why I call it utopian.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the rest of your text.

Utopians don't see the impossibility of the end goal, nor the value in a partial victory.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Arriemoller
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December 04, 2013, 03:31:11 AM
 #673

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

You're inside it.  The lifeblood of any civilization is it's trade currency.  Up until Bitcoin, a dependable trade currency pretty much required the intervention into the monetary policy by the soveign, if only to garrantee that gold was indeed gold if it had his face on it.  This is no longer neccessary.  The transaction fees you may or may not choose to pay for are this society's voluntary taxation.  Nothing more is 'required' of you here.

Quote
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

Very well.  But by doing so, you also choose to accept the culpablity of the wrongs persecuted in your name, because you can't really separate the taxes that you pay for paving roads from those use to kill brown people that don't speak English.  You can imagine that your taxes are paying for education of inner city kids all you like, but someone is paying to catch, prosecute and incarcerate addicts for victimless crimes against the state.  I pay taxes as well, but I'm not under any illusions that anything more than a very small minority of it is used to pay for anything I would volutarily contribute towards.  My taxes are 'protection' money, from the greatest protection racket around, and there is nothing noble about it at all.

You are right in that, and I never said it was noble, just a convenient way of collecting funds for common utilities. But I have chosen to try to change from within, working politically and voluntarily serving in the armed forces on my spare time rather than refusing to pay taxes..

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:34:07 AM
 #674

No need to discuss. I used to be a libertarian so I know what you mean. I just slowly realized as I got older that it is as utopian as the communist societies.
Taxes are actually the simplest and easiest way to fund some things and democratic decisions are the easiest, and in some ways, fair way to decide how to distribute the taxes.
Having said that, I don't approve of the high taxes in some countrys.

if slavery was the simplest and easiest way of getting cotton would you support it?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
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December 04, 2013, 03:40:42 AM
 #675

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom, and even then I would have to consider some back door out of slavery.
I know where you are going, as I stated earlier, I have been there myself. But I can't see any practical way of doing it right now.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:50:27 AM
 #676

But I have chosen to try to change from within, working politically and voluntarily serving in the armed forces on my spare time rather than refusing to pay taxes..

Wait, what?  Are you serving in the National Guard and donating your service pay to the Iraqi Orphans' Fund or what?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 04, 2013, 03:54:23 AM
 #677

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom,

I'm sure that you have to realize on an intellectual level that this statement is impossible.  Even the S&M sex slaves aren't really slaves, they're just play-acting.  You cannot 'sell yourself' beyond a limited term and under very limited conditions, thus nothing like chattel slavery at all.  Even those same S&M sex slaves have that 'safe word' that makes it all stop.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Arriemoller
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December 04, 2013, 03:54:38 AM
 #678

No I am serving as a lieutenant in the Royal Swedish Marines Home Guard.
And as a board member of the local chapter of the Swedish Federation for Voluntary Defence Education and Training.
And we have no troops nor have we had any in Iraq.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 03:59:59 AM
 #679

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom,

I'm sure that you have to realize on an intellectual level that this statement is impossible.  Even the S&M sex slaves aren't really slaves, they're just play-acting.  You cannot 'sell yourself' beyond a limited term and under very limited conditions, thus nothing like chattel slavery at all.  Even those same S&M sex slaves have that 'safe word' that makes it all stop.

Yes I know, By selling yourself as a slave you give up the freedom that you as a libertarian claim cannot be given up, and so on, hence the back door, which actually just makes it a long term employment.
Selling yourself to slavery and selling your own organs is usually some of the most debated questions in the libertarian community.

Demokrati: Två vargar och ett lamm röstar om lunchmenyn.      Democracy: Two wolfes and a lamb votes about the lunch menu.
Frihet: Ett väl beväpnat lamm opponerar sig mot omröstningen.  Freedom: A well armed lamb opposes the outcome.
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December 04, 2013, 04:00:21 AM
 #680

No I am serving as a lieutenant in the Royal Swedish Marines Home Guard.
And as a board member of the local chapter of the Swedish Federation for Voluntary Defence Education and Training.
And we have no troops nor have we had any in Iraq.

Ah, a state sanctioned militia.  That makes sense, actually.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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