Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[TXSteve]

wow, $93000 in legal fees awarded to KNC, that's about $8500 each plus $1500 to file. yikes, they doubled their loss. The ruling makes it sound like an open & shut case under Swedish law. I'd be faulting the lawyers for filing a frivolous lawsuit, instead of giving sound legal advice.

[1714151962]

1714151962

[RoadStress]

Thank you Sweden for your retard laws. Thank you EU for your retard laws too!

[NotFuzzyWarm]

As I posted in the other KNC thread, to me it seems the key point is that people who bought miners directly 'make income' from the machines vs crafters or hobbyists using a machine or tool to make something and then keep it or give away at no cost to friends,family, etc. In other words, there is no direct financial gain by crafters/hobbyists using the machine

Making money be it either by selling your products made from using a machine or tool or in this case, a machine directly generating income makes the buyers a business vs a consumer. The fact that a miner generally runs 24x7x365 doing what it does (generating income) clinches it.

Now if the suit(s) had been based on simple failure to fulfill the terms of a sales contract or other breach of Contract I think the Courts wold have looked at it differently.

[Searing]

As I posted in the other KNC thread, to me it seems the key point is that people who bought miners directly 'make income' from the machines vs crafters or hobbyists using a machine or tool to make something and then keep it or give away at no cost to friends,family, etc. In other words, there is no direct financial gain by crafters/hobbyists using the machine

Making money be it either by selling your products made from using a machine or tool or in this case, a machine directly generating income makes the buyers a business vs a consumer. The fact that a miner generally runs 24x7x365 doing what it does (generating income) clinches it.

Now if the suit(s) had been based on simple failure to fulfill the terms of a sales contract or other breach of Contract I think the Courts wold have looked at it differently.

But I mean really.....in Sweden (or hell maybe everywhere) you can promote your miners and state in interviews (that I remember seeing) saying you will sell your 'miners' to ANYONE and they can be run at home etc etc....BUT as soon as you buy it from KNC your are a BUSINESS because KNC says you are a BUSINESS ...thus under Swedish law they can automatically make you not protected under consumer protection laws.

Man that is a 'neat trick' whatever you sell you say the person buying is a 'business' and you never have any constraints on anything you sell 'no matter how lame' because you as the Seller have deemed them a 'Business'

Talk about a 'Catch 22' ..IF I want the product and I am not a business....and state I am not a business and purchase the item..I then am 'magically' a business and have no consumer protection......all to the companies benifit and no protection to the consumer...with KNC ALWAYS no matter what the circumstances ...automatically 'upgrading your purchase' to a business....pretty slick

sheesh....

With all I'm learning about 'consumer protection' in Sweden and the USA (In the USA for example General motors hit ignition problems on vehicles for 10 years plus that caused over 100 deaths...they paid a 1 Billion dollar fine I think it was and no one was held accountable..no jail for anything for anyone)  ...anyway if this is what 'consumer protection' has come to on me buying anything from a toaster to a car..I am afraid to even LOOK AT what the Insurance I have really covers for loss and/or Medical Insurance for the same...now we are talking real money...hell it is probably much worse ...with that kinda real money ..it could keep me up for weeks ....likely just as bad.

I swear stuff likes this makes me want to take a vow and dump modern society and technology and  'Just Go Amish" ....except for that whole work from dusk till dawn thing behind a mule...I'd do so *hmmm........hot Amish girls....er no must resist......1 hr with girl 12 hours with plow.....Ack!*

[NotFuzzyWarm]

All in all gotta say I agree with Searing. Here in the US considering that the IRS wants their share of our BTC income it really is the catch 22: Report the income and pay their tax each year as part of personal income (as I do) or setup a small business and file with the IRS that way. Good part of going 2nd way is then equipment costs are a write off but then you are most definitely not a 'Consumer" anymore.

Grant you, at the time these lawsuits started BTC was still a pretty gray area as far as taxes and status as 'money' but even then writing was on the wall -- BTC and other crypto-currencies are money and therefore taxable anytime there are gains. By extension of that, if you buy a miner to make money that means you are a business whether or not you are legally registered as one. The lawyers hired should have seen this ruling as a strong possibility.

[philipma1957]

All in all gotta say I agree with Searing. Here in the US considering that the IRS wants their share of our BTC income it really is the catch 22: Report the income and pay their tax each year as part of personal income (as I do) or setup a small business and file with the IRS that way. Good part of going 2nd way is then equipment costs are a write off but then you are most definitely not a 'Consumer" anymore.

Grant you, at the time these lawsuits started BTC was still a pretty gray area as far as taxes and status as 'money' but even then writing was on the wall -- BTC and other crypto-currencies are money and therefore taxable anytime there are gains. By extension of that, if you buy a miner to make money that means you are a business whether or not you are legally registered as one. The lawyers hired should have seen this ruling as a strong possibility.

And a further argument for gpu mining an anonymous  coin on a pc.

Looks to me that a sane person will think Gpu mining offers real protection when mining  and asics do not.

Hmmm  is this another point against BTC and for ETH?

[Micky25]

As I posted in the other KNC thread, to me it seems the key point is that people who bought miners directly 'make income' from the machines vs crafters or hobbyists using a machine or tool to make something and then keep it or give away at no cost to friends,family, etc. In other words, there is no direct financial gain by crafters/hobbyists using the machine

Making money be it either by selling your products made from using a machine or tool or in this case, a machine directly generating income makes the buyers a business vs a consumer. The fact that a miner generally runs 24x7x365 doing what it does (generating income) clinches it.

Now if the suit(s) had been based on simple failure to fulfill the terms of a sales contract or other breach of Contract I think the Courts wold have looked at it differently.

A company cannot just declare someone is a business. KNC should have verified that the buyer is a business before they confirmed the order. If not = no order.
Easy as that, everbody does it this way. Totally non-understandable court decision in my eyes.

[TookDk]

As I posted in the other KNC thread, to me it seems the key point is that people who bought miners directly 'make income' from the machines vs crafters or hobbyists using a machine or tool to make something and then keep it or give away at no cost to friends,family, etc. In other words, there is no direct financial gain by crafters/hobbyists using the machine

Making money be it either by selling your products made from using a machine or tool or in this case, a machine directly generating income makes the buyers a business vs a consumer. The fact that a miner generally runs 24x7x365 doing what it does (generating income) clinches it.

Now if the suit(s) had been based on simple failure to fulfill the terms of a sales contract or other breach of Contract I think the Courts wold have looked at it differently.

A company cannot just declare someone is a business. KNC should have verified that the buyer is a business before they confirmed the order. If not = no order.
Easy as that, everbody does it this way. Totally non-understandable court decision in my eyes.

Fighting the bureaucracy in Stockholm is a loose/loose situation.
The little-guy only win in movies.

[Marvell1]

The funny part is they awarded KNC damages lol, people are suing becase they LOST money how the FK are they suppsoed to PAY MORE money what a joke

[Searing]

The funny part is they awarded KNC damages lol, people are suing because they LOST money how the FK are they suppsoed to PAY MORE money what a joke

Yeah my reason for not getting in the class action was the fact that there "was" such a loophole for businesses in Sweden not being covered by EU consumer protection....I and
others figured the Swedes had a reason to get around that loophole with their laws...likely it helps to sell all sorts of business products with out that pesky EU consumer protection involvement..thus it turned out how I dreaded it would..the Swedish courts were not gonna toss out the 'precedent' of this ..that they obviously will not toss out such a legal tool  to help a bunch of consumers of asic miners...the case was dead from the get go....they had 'no' chance whatsoever...it was a 'rigged' trial but hey their lawyers got paid in full up front..probably the first clue to run away from this class action.....I guess KNC being so confident they could do this was more fact
then fiction in they always said anyone who made any purchases from them  were a 'business' because we bought their products.we declared ourselves as such
...again they got that whole 'evil' thing down pat knc does


This was 11 guys paying 90 in that court case below....man ...

http://www.coindesk.com/swedish-court-rules-against-kncminer-mining-hardware-customers/

There is still the last I think or 3rd court case with the 100 plus miners who paid 1.5k each (non-refundable) to heir lawyers and god knows what $$$ to KNC if they lose .....if 11 guys
are paying 93k ..they could be so royally screwed.....all had to sign a notarized letter agreeing to terms ..and those terms stated damages to knc if they lost....man that would
suck....

anyway others with more info or in the 100 folk class action chime in here

[edgar]

http://swedishstartupspace.com/2016/05/27/knc-miner-declares-bankruptcy-chinese-competition-too-tough/


...

[el_rlee]

http://swedishstartupspace.com/2016/05/27/knc-miner-declares-bankruptcy-chinese-competition-too-tough/


...

That makes me wonder a bit... strange, strange. They should be able to still mine a profit with their 0,5J/GH Hardware. A 100TH/s makes about 3.5k$/m and 50kW would cost them about 2k2$/m in power @0.06$/kWh.

Overhead? Shouldn't be too many people required to run the mine. Rent? Couple of thousands a month, we are talking ~1k$ profit per 50kW per month so that's ~100k$ for a 5MW mine - are the shacks in northern Sweden really so expensive?

No point in switching off just now, can't they even afford to run it as long as after the halving? Look how the price develops?

And then there are other stories like the stabbing, them not behaving exactly generous with their customers, not investing in new chips obviously, not selling hardware for reasons beyond me etc.

[The Avenger]

http://swedishstartupspace.com/2016/05/27/knc-miner-declares-bankruptcy-chinese-competition-too-tough/

Ha ha ha haaha haa haa. Too fucking funny.

So their vulture investors finally decided to pull the plug and get back as much as they possibly can?

Almost a year to the day since I suggested their VC's flush them out of existence, I guess it took them that long to catch up reading this thread  

Let's not forget this "brilliant" prediction last May as to what the price of bitcoin would be in December 2014

Scam Hole thinks bitcoin is heading for $2000-$3000 this year (http://youtu.be/jFpJ4pGQZKE?t=4m4s)...

I assume Scam has assured all the investors that it'll hit these number soon and they are going to make bank. As it's now February, people might be getting twitchy?

So I'm happy for btc to remain low all year, just so these VC guys implement their "exit strategy" and take kfc to the cleaners

Come on VC's, time to take these smelly cowboys to the cleaners! Clean up Sweden! Save your investment and flush these cowboys out of existence

Or maybe one of them sat in during the court proceedings and realised they had invested in a bunch of criminals.

[scyth3]

The funny part is they awarded KNC damages lol, people are suing becase they LOST money how the FK are they suppsoed to PAY MORE money what a joke

It makes people think twice before filing a frivolous suit.

[WastedLTC]

http://swedishstartupspace.com/2016/05/27/knc-miner-declares-bankruptcy-chinese-competition-too-tough/


...

That makes me wonder a bit... strange, strange. They should be able to still mine a profit with their 0,5J/GH Hardware. A 100TH/s makes about 3.5k$/m and 50kW would cost them about 2k2$/m in power @0.06$/kWh.

Overhead? Shouldn't be too many people required to run the mine. Rent? Couple of thousands a month, we are talking ~1k$ profit per 50kW per month so that's ~100k$ for a 5MW mine - are the shacks in northern Sweden really so expensive?

No point in switching off just now, can't they even afford to run it as long as after the halving? Look how the price develops?

And then there are other stories like the stabbing, them not behaving exactly generous with their customers, not investing in new chips obviously, not selling hardware for reasons beyond me etc.

I assume they are trying to do this now to forgive their debt and restructure for the halving.     Just trimming the fat without paying back what they owe.

[iCEBREAKER]

Thank you Sweden for your retard laws. Thank you EU for your retard laws too!

Consumers don't get to whine about ROI.  Whining about ROI is the privilege of businesses and businesspeople.

The lawyer's statement is written in very clear English:

"The main reason we lost is because the court judged that the plaintiffs weren’t consumers. And the reason for that was because we said that, these machines you can own and use them for making money. And the purpose of the purchase can only be to make money. So, therefore, the court deemed the plaintiffs to be businesses."

This isn't hard to understand, at least for those of us with a brain and lacking a massive sense of entitlement to guaranteed profits.

I'm sure it's more difficult for RoadStress, who is convinced every ASIC manufacture not named "SPONDOOLIES" automatically becomes guilty of scamming (and incompetence, etc.) the second they lose the bet they made on future price/difficulty.

Another asinine thing RoadStress does is blame venues *only* after a venue (IE Court of Law) reaches a conclusion he doesn't agree with.

That's stunningly fuck-witted "sour grapes" behavior.

We are expected to believe RoadStress knows better than the Judges in the EU, just as he knows better than the Bankruptcy Court here in the USA.  

This guy really can't stand being proven wrong, especially when the proof is irrefutable, having been provided by the highly specialized information gathering and analyzing apparatus of the legal process.

He's so mad about being stuck on the losing side of the 20MB Gavinblock fiasco, he'll never forgive me for being on the winning side (and generally rubbing his stupid face in his shitty logic for the last few years).

If only RoadStress wrote the laws in the EU and Sweden...  Then it would be impossible to lose money on risky ASIC pre-orders!  

[iCEBREAKER]

A company cannot just declare someone is a business. KNC should have verified that the buyer is a business before they confirmed the order. If not = no order.
Easy as that, everbody does it this way. Totally non-understandable court decision in my eyes.

The Court (not "a company") declared miners (not just a random "someone") are operating for profit, which qualifies as business.  Duh....

KnC's job was to make ASICs, not verify whether or not buyers are businesses.  Who do you get such crazy, crap ideas from?  RoadStress?

The Court's decision is entirely clear and easily understandable.

Your problem is your vision being obscured by so much Monday Morning Quarterback crap.

Now, let's all laugh at the ongoing spectacle of Radical Libertarian Bitcoiners pleading for relief before The State, because an extremely risky voluntary transaction didn't generate the winning gamble they desired.

"Boo Hoo Your Honor; Muh anti-statist Disruption was disrupted by [Evil ASIC company].  Pleez kiss my boo-boo and make it all better for me!"

[edgar]

how can anyone defend these shits??

trolling for lulz, mental malfunction or NDA clause? (thou shalt blame our victims)

[The Avenger]

So creandum, one of kfc's investors, made a statement

http://www.creandum.com/in-startups-sometimes-things-arent-meant-to-be

The line that caught my eye:
"However, the company recently encountered large technical issues"

All their crappy 16nm chips starting to fail?  

[The Avenger]

http://digital.di.se/artikel/bitcoinkursen-knackte-knc-miner--ansoker-om-konkurs

Quote from Scam:

"With us it was about to go to the moon or nowhere. We never aimed to build a medium-sized company. Our investors are not happy, but they understand the situation. "

For sure investors pulled the plug on Scam, because he made bad decisions. Classic or Core? Ha ha.

Also, looks like Scam might still be banking on dogecoin with that "to the moon" comment



Much laugh, many karma.