Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[raskul]

So you have 5 years of not paying electricity. For 4 of those you wont be earning anything significant anyway.

Whereas with hardware in hand you'd be delighted to pay more in electricity than it was making for those 4 years? Don't bother with the "resale" argument, what's a $5000 batch 3 avalon realistically worth to a non-n00b these days, 1 year after introduction, $250? that's 95% depreciation in a year.

Anyway, there's arguments in favor of hardware in hand, and there's arguments in favor of reasonably priced mining by the gighash, and I looked into this sector and determined that pbmining would appear to be the best deal in this space at the moment. Like it or not, mining seems to be headed towards doing things in bulk quantities, "retail" pricing on power and hardware is looking barely breakeven.

i agree. miner hardware manufacturers aren't making rigs 'at-home' friendly - the target market is big buyers, and if they make a few small sales along the way, then all the better for them. I couldn't host a spondoolian-thingy-ma-bob at home, for example, they are just too damn loud.

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[finbad2]

I wonder at what price point USD/BTC it is just better to turn the lights off?

[organofcorti]

So you have 5 years of not paying electricity. For 4 of those you wont be earning anything significant anyway.

Whereas with hardware in hand you'd be delighted to pay more in electricity than it was making for those 4 years?

No, the hardware is most likely useless after the first year. As is the cloud mining contract.

The hardware will have earned more in that first year than the contract will earn in that first year. Since earnings after the first year are negligible the hardware also earns more in the first year than the contract for five years - for the figures given in the example.

After the first year you throw the hardware away, you don't sell it.

[soy]

BTW...
We all have been over the mining taxation......  straight income tax tallied daily on BTC price sounds scary to me.
Digging into the tax code... looks like capitol gains(as in buy & hold BTC) is much easier to swallow than income tax(Mining)
As a result, there will surely be less American miners soon, and pushed more towards the corporate, large farm level....uuuggh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States
Time to move to Denmark.    http://www.coindesk.com/denmark-declares-bitcoin-trades-tax-free/

There are no economic reasons for sole individuals to mine in US anymore. Straight buying and holding for more than 12 mo or longer is the most beneficial.
The rule clearly favors accumulation vs usage, hence the utility of bitcoin in transactions will be probably minimized, unless it is revised later on.
Mining as a hobby for a couple of coins can still go on unimpeded.

Not so true for those on Social Security retirement or disability.  As a hobby one cannot deduct cost of equipment purchase or costs of running the gear but must report every btc mined as having created the asset and therefore as income.  With retirement or disability, they will require payback of 50 cents on every dollar earned up to the social security payout.  The social security description of what counts and what doesn't, doesn't seem to start at where one's income reaches a taxable level.

[tolip_wen]

The KnC 28nm ASIC can run @ lower power, slower.
It will be possible to delay the (break even on power turn off date) by underclocking.

But only if you have posession of the HW.
IMneverHO

YMMV

[Phoenix1969]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

[RoadStress]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

Wait aren't the sensors placed on VRMs or on boards? 85C for a chip isn't a bit low? I've read that some chips can go up to 120-130C.

[Phoenix1969]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

Wait aren't the sensors placed on VRMs or on boards? 85C for a chip isn't a bit low? I've read that some chips can go up to 120-130C.

probably so...but on knc's asics... When they first arrived, they told us 105C max, but now in the faq it says 95C
but that's okay when the sweetspot is 75 to 80.

[Hattifattener]

Greed
noun: greed

    1.
    intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food.
    synonyms:   avarice, cupidity, acquisitiveness, covetousness, rapacity...
________________

- Bitcoin (BTC,XBT) is the liberating invention to free humanity from the Basel led (BIS) criminal cabal of central banks and their minions, the spider web of bankers.
- If U the people don't know by know, they create FIAT from thin air by double entry book keeping. There is very little capital, leverage often 50:1 or more.
- Our liability to pay back is marked as their asset (if they loan people "money") and if the loan isn't paid back (non performing) we the people (taxpayers) will help the banker because our politicians are just as CORRUPT.
- There is much more to it though... The MilitaryIndustrialCorporateComplex colluding with the second oldest profession in the world i.e.politicians (U may know what the oldest is?) and bankers create all the MISERY we face.

Anyways, that FRAUD cabal and special interest groups are destroying our society because of their GREED.

SO! Is KNC et al. going to continue with mining (lining their pockets) with their operations and selling BTC for the fiat trash USD,EUR,CNY? If so, you're just as corrupt GREEDY idiots as the non productive leeching class AKA bankers.

I hope GREED is not so overwhelming as to send u on that path...

Linnaeus is Swedish and would define u as Homo Sapiens Corruptus if he was alive...

-- LUV
   

[smoothrunnings]

Have you every bought co-location space in your life to store your own servers? They charge you per-circuit and not for the power you use. There is at least one state in the US that has the lowest power costs out of all the other states that would be a good place for setting up cloud mining sites. There was a story recently on YouTube of a guy who setup his own mining in this state; which they wouldn't name; in a co-location, he was making 8 million a week in Bitcoin mining and was using 1mw of power. (Yes..Mega Watt)

I don't understand - 4Thps for $10000 vs 3 Thps for $11000 ? How much do you think electricity costs will be?

I don't know about everyone else but I've reached the limit of what my house can hold, physically and electrically.  I also happen to live in a desert environment and it's starting to get pretty warm during the day.

So it's time to rid myself of my first gen gear to make room for the newer miners arriving soon.  But then, I'm back at (or above) my max capacity.  And with cloudmining suddenly becoming competetive with hardware sales, it couldn't come at a better time for me.

Think about it, 3TH for $11,000 for 5 years = 3kw * 24hr * 365 days * 5 years * 10-cent kWh = $13,140 for electricity alone = -$2,140 (loss) for PBMining?  That's not even considering the cost of Bitcoin hardware? (Wait, where did they find the money to pay for the 3TH miner if they can't even pay for electricity?)  Where is money to pay for A/C cooling (unless they are in the Arctic Circle), data center cost (or at least renting out a space), Internet, power redundancy for a large operations, administration...  Where is any evident of their rapidly growing mining operations?  Have they provide proof that they are paying people from freshly minted bitcoins and not simply transferring from new investment from new victims?   Looks and smells  like a classic ponzi to me.  You might eventually get out with your original money or even make a little bit if you are one of the first victims, but you know what happen to all ponzi eventually once they can't keep the growth rate up...

Check out the PBMining thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=484355.100

You're the third (i think) person to make their first post in this thread in defence of PBMining.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?all=;topic=100696.0

Ponzi Indicators
1. High rate of return - Tick for PBMining
2.  Provides no evidence of business activity - Tick for PBMining
3. Business activity is "speculation" - no
4. Steady rates of return - PBmining pays the theoretical rate per gh
5. Increasing demand for capital - MAJOR tick, jumped from 14th to 64 in weeks....

Unlike a regular business which has its largest demand for capital at the start, the ponzi starts off with a very small amount of capital ("refuses" deposits), and then grows rapidly.  An increasing demand for capital makes sense only if the business can show what the money is being used for.  A ponzi will need to have its capital grow at a standard rate that exceeds the withdrawals, whereas a legitimate business will have a varying rate of investment.

6. Operator hides their identity - Big tick for PBmining (I have found out who they are)
7. A Super Majority of Non-Investors view it as a Ponzi - Not sure, but certainly many people think so.
8. They advertise a "Limited Availability" tick for pbmining

I'd add 9  - offer referrals to bring in new business - and 10 - use shill accounts to pump their scheme.

They tick 6 or 7 out of 8 for the "how to spot a ponzi" thread list, and 8 or 9 out of 10 if you add my two to the list.

[Phoenix1969]

Have you every bought co-location space in your life to store your own servers? They charge you per-circuit and not for the power you use. There is at least one state in the US that has the lowest power costs out of all the other states that would be a good place for setting up cloud mining sites. There was a story recently on YouTube of a guy who setup his own mining in this state; which they wouldn't name; in a co-location, he was making 8 million a week in Bitcoin mining and was using 1mw of power. (Yes..Mega Watt)

I don't understand - 4Thps for $10000 vs 3 Thps for $11000 ? How much do you think electricity costs will be?

I don't know about everyone else but I've reached the limit of what my house can hold, physically and electrically.  I also happen to live in a desert environment and it's starting to get pretty warm during the day.

So it's time to rid myself of my first gen gear to make room for the newer miners arriving soon.  But then, I'm back at (or above) my max capacity.  And with cloudmining suddenly becoming competetive with hardware sales, it couldn't come at a better time for me.

Think about it, 3TH for $11,000 for 5 years = 3kw * 24hr * 365 days * 5 years * 10-cent kWh = $13,140 for electricity alone = -$2,140 (loss) for PBMining?  That's not even considering the cost of Bitcoin hardware? (Wait, where did they find the money to pay for the 3TH miner if they can't even pay for electricity?)  Where is money to pay for A/C cooling (unless they are in the Arctic Circle), data center cost (or at least renting out a space), Internet, power redundancy for a large operations, administration...  Where is any evident of their rapidly growing mining operations?  Have they provide proof that they are paying people from freshly minted bitcoins and not simply transferring from new investment from new victims?   Looks and smells  like a classic ponzi to me.  You might eventually get out with your original money or even make a little bit if you are one of the first victims, but you know what happen to all ponzi eventually once they can't keep the growth rate up...

Check out the PBMining thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=484355.100

You're the third (i think) person to make their first post in this thread in defence of PBMining.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?all=;topic=100696.0

Ponzi Indicators
1. High rate of return - Tick for PBMining
2.  Provides no evidence of business activity - Tick for PBMining
3. Business activity is "speculation" - no
4. Steady rates of return - PBmining pays the theoretical rate per gh
5. Increasing demand for capital - MAJOR tick, jumped from 14th to 64 in weeks....

Unlike a regular business which has its largest demand for capital at the start, the ponzi starts off with a very small amount of capital ("refuses" deposits), and then grows rapidly.  An increasing demand for capital makes sense only if the business can show what the money is being used for.  A ponzi will need to have its capital grow at a standard rate that exceeds the withdrawals, whereas a legitimate business will have a varying rate of investment.

6. Operator hides their identity - Big tick for PBmining (I have found out who they are)
7. A Super Majority of Non-Investors view it as a Ponzi - Not sure, but certainly many people think so.
8. They advertise a "Limited Availability" tick for pbmining

I'd add 9  - offer referrals to bring in new business - and 10 - use shill accounts to pump their scheme.

They tick 6 or 7 out of 8 for the "how to spot a ponzi" thread list, and 8 or 9 out of 10 if you add my two to the list.

Yes, I can confirm, there are places in the USA, where electricity is as low as 2.4cents per kilowatthour. Hawaii is 43 cents after all the fees, etc, so we looked early on...  Chelan, Washinton, is a hydrodam town, and such a place. There are others.
If you persue Chelan; steer clear of Chelan mini storage; the manager is dishonest, and attempted to over-charge us, and added for services he was not even involved in performing.

[Biffa]

Have you every bought co-location space in your life to store your own servers? They charge you per-circuit and not for the power you use. There is at least one state in the US that has the lowest power costs out of all the other states that would be a good place for setting up cloud mining sites. There was a story recently on YouTube of a guy who setup his own mining in this state; which they wouldn't name; in a co-location, he was making 8 million a week in Bitcoin mining and was using 1mw of power. (Yes..Mega Watt)

Have you?

They charge you for:

1. Amount of rack space
2. Data (fixed or 95th percentile)
3. Power (per Amp)

[tolip_wen]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

Wait aren't the sensors placed on VRMs or on boards? 85C for a chip isn't a bit low? I've read that some chips can go up to 120-130C.

probably so...but on knc's asics... When they first arrived, they told us 105C max, but now in the faq it says 95C
but that's okay when the sweetspot is 75 to 80.

I have a very different experience with my ASICs.
On my ASIC I can gauranfuckintee lower temps result in higher Gh/s at the pool and everywhere else you care to measure.

Oct. 4 VRM Saturn stats after 1 day 2 hours.
330.323  Gh/s
000.422  %HW

Code:

die   Mh/s      HW%      min   max     Volt   Amp   Watt      W/Gh
0_0  849.30    0.107  ( 0.05 / 0.18 )  0.80  52.19  41.80     1.025 
0_1  849.65    0.104  ( 0.05 / 0.17 )  0.80  51.19  41.16     1.009 
0_2  847.85    1.119  ( 0.92 / 1.29 )  0.81  55.94  45.20     1.111 
0_3  782.99    0.095  ( 0.00 / 0.14 )  0.79  48.06  37.73     1.004 
55.0 C
1_0  872.48    0.003  ( 0.00 / 0.02 )  0.82  53.44  43.71     1.044 
1_1  874.42    0.003  ( 0.00 / 0.02 )  0.81  54.12  43.73     1.042 
1_2  894.81    1.361  ( 1.14 / 1.56 )  0.82  57.88  47.63     1.109 
1_3  899.04    0.590  ( 0.23 / 0.92 )  0.78  57.88  45.08     1.045 
58.0 C

The temp reported by the miner is NOT the ASIC or VRM temp!!!

The ASIC  above @ 58C measures 73C on the bottom of the PCB directly below the ASIC.
Directly below the VRM's I get 90C.

Power consumption climbs with temp for equal output.
If I cool it more, efficiency climbs and errors lower.

I can adjust speed and W/Gh as needed.
Perhaps you define "optimum performance" differently.

YMMV

[Searing]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

just a note...I'm opposite (1st run Oct 555gh unit) mine runs best at 62F
it don't change much but from then on up i lose .1gh or so as it rises

but then again my unit is weird ran at 555gh more or less thru all the upgrades .90 to the current 1.0

only time i gained was on 1.0 and I'm now up to 557.7gh whooo who

but anyway if phoenix numbers don't work (unlikely most units are prob in his camp) you can go to the dark side and run the temp down like mine seems to like

yeah I'm confused to .....

oh...and that is WITH  the cover off and 2 Menards 3" fans blowing sideways across the unit in my basement
which in winter went down to 50F (i shut the fans off) and yeah you guessed it still 555gh more or less
never 556...never 554...555gh at least until i upgrade to version 1.00 now at 557.7 (the blinding speed my eyes water)

and yes I've tried it HOT like phoenix with the fans w/o the fans etc etc ..tanks big time.....did not like that at all

l

the bugger just likes those temps and around 555gh no matter what i do

weird but better then 390gh with the above weirdness

Searing

[Wesly]

Have you every bought co-location space in your life to store your own servers? They charge you per-circuit and not for the power you use. There is at least one state in the US that has the lowest power costs out of all the other states that would be a good place for setting up cloud mining sites. There was a story recently on YouTube of a guy who setup his own mining in this state; which they wouldn't name; in a co-location, he was making 8 million a week in Bitcoin mining and was using 1mw of power. (Yes..Mega Watt)

That's funny, because I was going to ask you the same thing.  They don't care about power as they usually give you a set amount of power depend on the amount of rack spaces you are leasing:  typically 20-amp 220-V for a full 42U rack, with only 16-amp usable = 3.3kW, enough to power a whopping one 3TH miner.  You can't plug any more equipment in the rack and power it from the same circuit as it will overload and trip the circuit breaker.  You will have to pay additional fee to get more power in, typically at least $200+ per additional 20-amp circuit and that's without any A+B redundancy power feeds.  That's right for power redundancy, you will have to pay another $200 for 20-AMP of standby power that you cannot use.  Otherwise if one of your circuit went out even for just a split second (due to power failure/UPS/breaker), you will now be running twice the power on the second circuit thus tripping the breaker on that circuit and all your equipment is shut down...  How do I know?  I was responsible for relocating all of my last company's servers from the various offices into a colocation with redundant power feeds from the power company, backup diesel generators, redundant climate control, redundant data circuit, secure access, etc..  I shopped around extensively and it is not cheap.  My current employer has almost 1000 servers at their off-site data center and they spent several millions per years in data center costs.  That's not even counting the salary of the staffs necessary to support such a large DC operations.

[Biomech]

has someone figures about max. chip temperature of Jupiter October and November batch. did Jupiters died because of to high chip temperature?

85C is top recommended max operating temp.  I had some hit 95 and survive just fine(not recommended)
Every board I had liked 75-80 for optimum performance.
Some say chilling works, but most of them have never seen 80C on their ASIC temps. If it were a GPU...
I'd say "cool it", but a Jupiter likes it toasty on the asic.
CLEAN power was most important.....  meaning no spikes and fluctuations in the electrical feed.

also... tuning suite.... LOWER the voltages instead of raise to wake dead dies.

Must be something about the way they do the calculations Bitfury chips are the same way, only it's the hashrate rather than dead dies. If I push my rig's voltage, it hashes steadily, but at a bit lower rate. I undervolt it a bit, and I get some REALLY high spikes and overall higher hashrate, but it jumps around like mad. Over a 24hr period, though, I get more hash for slightly lowered voltage. Too far and it goes the other way. Finding the sweet spot is a bit of a challenge

As to cloudmining, I am doing it, and I'm doing well on it. Like most things, it pays to put your eggs in several baskets. The advantage of the mining contract is obvious, I don't have to hassle with equipment or pay electricity. The price I pay is about what I would pay for an antminer, PSU, and electricity at industrial rates, except that I pay it upfront and the electric would kill the ant in short order, whereas with the hosted mining, I don't have that risk.

On the other side of the coin is several factors that are important. I can tweak my hardware. I can mine alts, which if you play it sharp are more profitable. (sometimes. Yesterday I made nearly twice what I would have mining BTC. Today I'm at about 75%). I have the hardware in my hand, thus have total control over it.

All in all I prefer having my own equipment, but I will go both routes as it makes economic sense to have multiple income streams.

[Xialla]

meeh, really?

http://www.reddit.com/r/potcoin/comments/21q9ii/kncminers_ceo_sam_cole_dumping_bitcoins_worth/

[jelin1984]

maybe final
btc price drop because knc sell everyday so much bitcoin

[jimmothy]

meeh, really?

http://www.reddit.com/r/potcoin/comments/21q9ii/kncminers_ceo_sam_cole_dumping_bitcoins_worth/

Its only like $250k per day now.

You're not surprised are you? How else are they going to bring online a 10MW solomining empire? Only at 5Ph so far.

[Xialla]

meeh, really?

http://www.reddit.com/r/potcoin/comments/21q9ii/kncminers_ceo_sam_cole_dumping_bitcoins_worth/

Its only like $250k per day now.

You're not surprised are you? How else are they going to bring online a 10MW solomining empire? Only at 5Ph so far.

but but...there was some network protection statement about KNC and their mining operations.)