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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3007332 times)
The Avenger
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March 05, 2014, 07:37:17 PM
 #30641

@ Avenger, you wasted so much time over the last month spreading and speculating FUD, it was unbelievable funny how much built up anger you have.  
I said they would have to tape out this month, in order to deliver in Q2. As in 4 days ago:

I am aware of the bullshit they post on their website, but I said DETAILS. If they are so confident on batch 2 in Q2, they should surely be able to provide concrete, technical details about the product now.

Remember >
64 days fab + "will leave about one month after the first batch" and still to deliver in Q2 means they have to tape out before 2nd April. So they have about 32 days left to complete one of the first 20nm projects in the world and ensure they get it right the first time. This after announcing only 6 weeks ago they were only in preliminary design stages.

How is that FUD?

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March 05, 2014, 07:58:09 PM
 #30642

What is the minimum amount of time it will take to go from taping out a chip to delivering a product to customers?

How long did it take Knc to do that for Jupiters?
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March 05, 2014, 08:12:02 PM
 #30643

I'm confused...

I'm pretty sure Bitcoinorama and Bitconorama are not the same person..

Also, when was the original tapeout for the chips used in the Jupiter??  It was sometime in July if I remember correctly.. so we are looking at another 3-4 months if everything goes right?


aw man, he got me there....
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March 05, 2014, 08:12:26 PM
 #30644

It's going to be tight.  But at least they have broken the silence.  All we can do is hope they bust ass and finish the project so the Neptunes ship ASAP.
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March 05, 2014, 08:18:48 PM
 #30645

why has bitcoinorama disappeared.  he's probably trying to tell us, beware KNC has gone mad  Shocked

There is no correlation between the two. The second part is *your* reading of the situation, which I'd say isn't too far away from the truth. KNC are going round telling everyone there is no reason they can't be as big as facebook - you know there is something wrong at in their arctic circles - aka their brains - when they are making those gandiose statements  Grin

Bitcoinorama abandoned this forum almost a month ago to the day. It's easy to see where his allegence lies. He's down with the greed and megalomania and thinks knc will become billionaires and he is hoping that will trickle down to him. He doesn't give a toss about people on here, he's always been a shill with his eye solely on his own *image* and *self-interests*.

He obviously knew all about KNC's DC plans - just look at that engadget video from January. He was talking about the eventual bitcoin "winner" being the ones with access to the cheapest electricity etc.

Probably the only time he'll come back to this forum is when things start coming unstuck for KNC and they get to the paranoid, "everyone is against us" stage of delusion and they fire him. And he'll come on here claiming he quit, (as lies and spin are his forte) and he'll try to win everyone back on his side.

The guy abandoned this forum a month ago because he was well aware KNC were about to break every one of their promises and commitments to their customers who made them. And he didn't have enough moral character to stay on the forum and face everyone. Cowardly.

That's what his silence is telling you. "beware KNC has gone mad" is your own correct interpretation of the situation.

FUD

30 days left to tape out Neptune

FUD

Seriously, why in the world would KNC want their own wallet program? Is this another move to get their greedy little hands onto even more BTC?

Yes Grin

It's already answered in their newsletter and I mentioned it a few weeks ago.

"we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else"

Hell, they don't actually need any machines running - they can simply work out how much you are due for 3TH at difficulty in July (e.g. 0.0002BTC/day) and pay it to your wallet directly from their stash! One bitcoin will go a long way in July 2014!

If the datacentre video is anything to go by, they are mining the sh!t out of the network and going to use those coins to pay people directly to their "knc wallet", you won't get a choice which pool your hash power mines etc.

So let's say you're forced 6 month neptune cloud hashing contract earns you 6 bitcoin. They mined it already! You'll be getting coins they've mined since October last year.

So pretty much every penny they take will be pure profit and I assume this will be used to build a 20nm product sometime in 2014/2015. They've gambled all the Neptune customers money on datacentre(s), this is the plan to make that money back before anyone realises.


The Dukes of Moral Hazard



FUD & probably some slander

You could have it easier.
http://thenodepole.com/2014/02/06/knc-miner-to-build-10-mw-datacenter-in-the-node-pole/


10MW = 10.000.000W => 1W per GH/s => 10.000.000 GH/s = 10.000 TH/s = 10 PH/s

3TH/s*3Batches*1200units=10.800 TH/s = 10.8 PH/s.
Those 800TH/s (~260 Neptunes) are whether canceled or they have somewhere else (current location?) ~125*4 boards (28nm) available.

Enough to cover all 3 batches I'd say.
And that's maybe the reason why the hosting is limited to 3TH/s even with the announcement they made 11% improvement on the chip-design.

I don't think the 10MW will do it, per my calculations a while back:

--snip--
If it were (not IS) 1kw per nov jup, then they could power probably 9500 Nov Jupiters (ISH, factoring in other equipment and losses etc).

9500x650GH = ~ (< engineering symbol for "roughly") 6000TH

KNC have sold 3600x3TH machines, which is 10800TH

Which is why I think they need another building.

They will also want to have some cloud hashing power for themselves/shite-minr to sell, so they might actually need one even larger building or even 2 additional buildings to cover it all.


*edit:
Can remember that there was some info about another 2 locations they will build as soon as this one has been finished.
This?
http://www.globalsecuritymag.com/KnC-Miner-to-build-10-MW,20140206,42773.html
Quote
"KnC are also already in discussions with local authorities regarding the establishment of even larger facilities in the local area already later this spring, which would then bring even more business to the local community."


FUD

2) seemed to devolve from providing those objections and rational thoughts and insisted on using that voice for mud flinging and conspiracy theories -the worst of it in the last few weeks
My recent comments are no more "mud flinging and conspiracy theories" than anything I've ever said previously. People just find them a little hard to swallow, until they come true  Grin

Hardly scientific proof, but

And to think at one point I suspected you were a crazy conspiracy theorists. Tuens out you were right on.

What do you have a problem with, specifically, with what I've said lately?

I speculated from a bin full of arctic cooler boxes in that video I posted that the boards in the datacentre are new and additional hashing power, not just being moved from someplace else. On a scale of 1-10, I'd say that assessement is an 8 or 9 in terms of being correct.

My read on that cloud hashing guy selling his jupiters being a sign of something happening in the cloud hashing world was correct.

And my insisting on knc only providing 3TH cloud hashing for 6 months is based on a statement made by their company director. I shoot down anyone who suggests it might be 5 or 6TH for two reasons:
1. It's already been stated by knc employee that their priority with neptune is power consumption, not time to delivery or maximising hashrate. That is totally consistent that same knc employee's statement that the future of mining is based on lowest power consumption costs. And that all fits in with their datacentre being in a place with the cheapest electricity in Europe.
2. Though they promised to over-deliver etc, knc were quite forceful insisting in October that if you paid for 400GH, then that was all you were entitled to. No debate, end of story. As Sam's statement to coindesk classified it as the "latest model, the 3TH/s Neptune miner" and "3. Convert to 3TH of hosting performance for a period". That seems quite assured it's not 6TH. And as I said in my last post, knc did the absolute bare minimum to meet their obligations to customers and I see no reason why they would suddenly change now. What a company has done in the past (i.e. what they get away with) is a very good indicator of what they will do again in the future.

Sure I'm flippant sometimes, it's fun.
Neptune customers t-shirt UPDATE:

FRONT: I gave KNC $13,000 for a Neptune

BACK: And all I got was this lousy 3TH cloud hashing contract for 6 months

Tongue

So why do those photos of Josh and Sam bug you? I mean, if knc are the virtuous company they claim to be, they could surely tell conference organisers they will not share a stage with BFL/Josh, if they truly felt that BFL were doing damage to bitcoin and taking advantage of people with their sales and delivery dates etc. And that knc are playing everything above board and legit and setting an example of how to do things right and don't want to be associated with people who might not be.

But they aren't, they know it and they are happy to sit next to Josh. Actions speak louder than words.


All I'll add is that in regard to their, "We'll never forget the help of our first customers" attitude, I don't feel as detested by their actions as you as I never actually believed that in the first place. I never felt entitled to benefits nor anticipated preferential treatment despite the persona they wished to convey, because at the end of the day, KnC's primary goal (or any business for that matter) does not include you or me as the beneficiaries. Any demonstrated values any company shows is essentially a facade, a tool to further that main objective -but still one I can't hold against them.
I guess I'm naive. I wasn't expecting preferential treatment. But for $7k+ I was expecting to be informed and treated well enough. If you buy a $200 psu off a company, they'll usually be very apologetic if they can't deliver on time and probably bombard you with updates and apologies etc. And if they then shipped you a duff one, they'd be even more apologetic and probably send you a replacement for free. Now I'm not expecting that, but knc should really have done 1000% better to the people they shipped their faulty die0 rigs to. Instead, they were like "Meh, go away". It all went downhill after that. I see no reason to give them any benefit of the doubt, they have screwed the people who gave them the chance to exist. It's akin to killing your own mother, for money. Pretty disgusting and greedy. I don't accept the argument that companies can lie through their teeth and that is acceptable. It's not. It's only a reflection of the beliefs and attitudes of the people who own the company and make the decisions.

Oh and some more FUD.

1000 refunded orders, that's gonna hurt.
Not if you are mining with equipment purchased with customers money, selling the btc and giving people refunds with the mining profits.

I certainly didn't see any comment in the newsletter about the video we've all seen with 1000 boards hashing in their new datacentre.

true enough, reckon they'll sell 'em?
I don't think they care too much about Neptune in 2014.

They will force everybody onto a 6 month cloud hashing contract. I mean, if they announce you can have 6 months cloud from June or wait for Neptune, that is going to be delayed until at least November, who in their right mind would wait?

Eventually they'll make Neptune, to pad out their arctic empire, as it will be lower power than the jupiter boards. But probably we won't see it until 2015.

In the meantime, we'll see just how much truth lies behind their February 2014 statement of "As we are getting closer to the launch date of Neptune", as time progresses.

Oh and some more major FUD

Oh how much time you wasted, looking back on your post history over the last two months it is all spreading fear uncertainty and doubt.
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March 05, 2014, 09:00:40 PM
 #30646

Got my refund for my Neptune today. I think it's very clear that they will give cloud hashing out to test their cloud hashing platform and then sometime in the distant future give the actual physical netpune (to fulfill their physical delivery obligation).


I'm just buying Ants now.




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The Avenger
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March 05, 2014, 09:55:12 PM
 #30647


FACT not FUD. It's an absolute fact, based on how long it takes to fab chips. To deliver in Q2, they had to tape out in March.


I'm not even going to go over the rest. You have a few things in there regarding the datacentre, not Neptune, and the datacentre situation has not changed.

I'll add I was *not* the one making statements of fact knc would never deliver a physical 20nm product and that they never planned to make one in the first place. Nothing to do with me.

I *was* the person says their datacentre broke all their promises to customers and is going to make neptunes worthless. It still is. Anyone who got a refund and bought about 15-20 BTC did about as well as will be possible out of the deal. If antminers are shipping in 3 days, they are still a much better choice for your money than waiting for neptune.

And before you cream you pants any further:

Quote
First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:

    The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
    The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out
(Edit: Whoops, didn't notice kendog already posted this a few back. Sorry dude.)

The fact they have announced they taped out does not mean all that much in itself, other than they like boasting and are hoping to scare their competition. Other than it's their second official annoucement about Neptune in almost 4 months. Now that the math is out of the way, they have to start dealing with the real-world problems of sourcing components, manufacturing processes, errors, delays etc. There is a difference between FUD and being realistic.

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March 05, 2014, 10:19:22 PM
 #30648


FACT not FUD. It's an absolute fact, based on how long it takes to fab chips. To deliver in Q2, they had to tape out in March.

Everyone knew the date and deadline, you just pointed it out along with all your other conspiracies in attempt to spread FUD, you sir are a classic FUDster and that is a fact. A review of your last months post history shows that.


edit, by the way i didn't even read ANY of the posts i quoted of yours, i just knew each of them would contain some FUD as that is waht you do.
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March 05, 2014, 10:23:08 PM
 #30649

Is there something wrong with the KNC Cloud?

http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1A73ExsM2doRwTLp82rv5U36QHbBFmHD1X

Esst mehr Scheisse, millionen Fliegen können nicht irren!  Cool
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March 05, 2014, 10:25:24 PM
 #30650

I was watching lord of the rings yesterday and it reminded me of the situation with knc. I think they are basically good people over there and they helped me make some money with their saturns. But eventually greed took over their minds when they thought how they can mine all these coins and keep them for themselves. The thought of owning all they hashpower and the coins that come with it has consumed them. And the millions of $ they received from the neptunes was the turning point.

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March 05, 2014, 10:36:54 PM
 #30651

but in spite of the silly speculative doom and gloom that has swept over this thread, there still might be reason for optimism among those with outstanding Neptune orders.

Silly speculative doom and gloom? I normally respect what you have to offer on these forums but I find this comment slightly insulting. The lack of information from KNC is the root cause of all the "silly speculation" and now that we're finally getting more information the doom and gloom is quite justified IMO.

Consider the November pre-order customer who gave KNC $10k with little information past a "Q1/Q2" ship date and 3TH/s hashrate. Were they silly to speculate that KNC was being honest and had already made decent progress and thus might actually ship in Q1? Should they not be disappointed to learn that KNC included "Q1" in the ship date as a marketing scam and that the 20nm chip just barely now taped out confirming no hope for positive BTC ROI? I was really curious to hear your take on recent KNC developments when you finally popped back up and am now quite disappointed...

I'm trying to understand why anybody would still be holding onto a Neptune pre-order instead of refunding to simply buy more BTC than their Neptune could ever hope to mine.
The Avenger
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March 05, 2014, 10:40:14 PM
 #30652

Everyone knew the date and deadline, you just pointed it out along with all your other conspiracies in attempt to spread FUD, you sir are a classic FUDster and that is a fact. A review of your last months post history shows that.
That doesn't even make sense. How is pointing out a deadline KNC *have* to meet somehow spreading uncertainty? It's more like spreading CERTAINTY - if they didn't tape out in March, then Q2 was never gonna happen.

N.B. The amount of people who have asked today how long it takes from tape out to unit production indicated that "very few" and not "everyone" know the dates and deadlines for these sorts of things.

edit, by the way i didn't even read ANY of the posts i quoted of yours...
I thought so, which is why I didn't go into detail.  Anyway, I hope you are glad to get some attention  Grin

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March 05, 2014, 10:44:31 PM
 #30653

A skeptic would say that Knc timed their tape-out announcement to slow down refund requests.

If the tape-out was completed in February, why wait until March 5th to announce it when more are more refunds are being requested everyday? I don't get it.
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March 05, 2014, 10:50:12 PM
 #30654

<snip>

I'll add I was *not* the one making statements of fact knc would never deliver a physical 20nm product and that they never planned to make one in the first place. Nothing to do with me.

</snip>

That would be me, lol.  And yes, I still stand behind my prediction.  I am absolutely stunned that so many people believe anything written in this press release. This wouldn't be the first time KNC has deceived us.

They taped out sometime in February.  Why is this the first we're hearing of it, why so secretive?  The lack of communication with the unexplained absence of Bitcoinorama is very unsettling to me.  Have they really taped out or are they just trying to stem the tide of refunds so they can continue to fund the building of the world's largest, most fabulous bitcoin datacenter?


Prediction: at the end of Q2 they will make a big announcement that will go something like this..

"We are sorry to announce that the design of the Neptune is fatally flawed and we have to discontinue further development because of the lack of funds.  To honor our agreement for Neptune preorders we will continue to offer our Plan B and will extend the offer to 'X' months and increase your hash rate from 3THs to 'Y'THs.  We understand your frustration but we hope that our generous offer is enough to keep you from suing our asses into the ground.  Oh by the way, we will no longer honor refunds."

Again, I hope I am wrong but I still fail to see any logic behind the development of a 20nm miner.  It just doesn't make any sense especially now that they are projecting power consumption that isn't miles ahead of other 28nm (and above) competitors.  Bitfury and ASICMiner are likely to beat that with their next gen ASICs and with much more affordable process technology than 20nm.

And by the way, I haven't refunded my CA order for a single Neptune... so make of that what you will, lol.
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March 05, 2014, 11:02:51 PM
 #30655

A skeptic would say that Knc timed their tape-out announcement to slow down refund requests.

If the tape-out was completed in February, why wait until March 5th to announce it when more are more refunds are being requested everyday? I don't get it.
It's a very good question.

A cynic might point out things like this - the difference between the last alchip press release and the latest:

LAST:
Quote
announced today that they have cooperated in design completion and manufacture of the world’s first 28nm Bitcoin mining AISC for KnCMiner’s flagship mining machine; "Jupiter" in just four months. The fastest 28nm ASIC created in any industry to date.

LATEST:
Quote
KnC partnered with Alchip and its representative, Advanced Semiconductors Technology (AST), to deliver
this advanced 20nm technology ASIC. This tapeout is the 2nd generation of the bitcoin mining ASIC following
the success of the 1st, which was delivered in a record time of 3.5 months.

Go KNC! They've taken 1/2 a month off the time it takes! It's cool to change history.

Not that I'm suggesting they might do such a thing so someone with a neptune order might try to use the figure to estimate when Neptune will be delivered and delay their decision on a refund.

Only a classic FUDster would suggest such a thing Grin

Although the fact remains 1/2 month has disappeared from history  Shocked Are KNC building time machines with the neptune money?  Shocked Maybe they sent bitcoinorama back to the 1960's and he's stuck there and that's why he stopped posting - they internet hasn't been invented yet.

 Tongue

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March 05, 2014, 11:36:39 PM
 #30656

but in spite of the silly speculative doom and gloom that has swept over this thread, there still might be reason for optimism among those with outstanding Neptune orders.

Silly speculative doom and gloom? I normally respect what you have to offer on these forums but I find this comment slightly insulting.

I'm pretty sure Bitcoinorama and Bitconorama are not the same person..

Run a Bitcoin node, support the network.
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March 05, 2014, 11:45:32 PM
 #30657

A skeptic would say that Knc timed their tape-out announcement to slow down refund requests.

If the tape-out was completed in February, why wait until March 5th to announce it when more are more refunds are being requested everyday? I don't get it.

Last summer they taped out in june/july for their 28nm-Asics,but they confrmed tape-out in september after several people asked in the thread.
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March 05, 2014, 11:49:27 PM
 #30658

A skeptic would say that Knc timed their tape-out announcement to slow down refund requests.

If the tape-out was completed in February, why wait until March 5th to announce it when more are more refunds are being requested everyday? I don't get it.

Last summer they taped out in june/july for their 28nm-Asics,but they confrmed tape-out in september after several people asked in the thread.

If you look back through the thread, what's happening now and over the past month is almost exactly what happened then. KnC are actually staying true to form and following a very similar pattern to the October launch.

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March 06, 2014, 12:01:06 AM
 #30659

but in spite of the silly speculative doom and gloom that has swept over this thread, there still might be reason for optimism among those with outstanding Neptune orders.
<snip>

I was really curious to hear your take on recent KNC developments when you finally popped back up and am now quite disappointed...

</snip>

Please note:  BitCONorama is not the same person as BitCOINorama.  BitCOINorama is still M.I.A.
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March 06, 2014, 12:10:14 AM
 #30660

but in spite of the silly speculative doom and gloom that has swept over this thread, there still might be reason for optimism among those with outstanding Neptune orders.

Silly speculative doom and gloom? I normally respect what you have to offer on these forums but I find this comment slightly insulting.

I'm pretty sure Bitcoinorama and Bitconorama are not the same person..

DOH! Thanks Cheesy
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