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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 908344 times)
JorgeStolfi
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September 05, 2014, 07:54:57 PM
 #6141

I'm not sure Mt. Gox should have even declared bankruptcy. Although it allegedly once held 850,000 btc, as now 220,000 have been admitted found, then the company could have continued operating on a fractional reserve basis like a bank. If the real reason for the bankruptcy was a freeze placed on their fiat bank accounts, and not "disappeared" bitcoins, then that issue should have been negotiated with Mizuho Bank before declaring bk. Mt. Gox may have been the recipient of very poor legal advice, and it would make more sense now to somehow roll back the bankruptcy proceeding instead of proposing a sale of assets.

From what I know, the purpose of bankruptcy (full name: "bankruptcy protection") is to halt all individual lawsuits by employees, creditors and investors against the company, so that a single court (1) gets to evaluate whether the company has a reasonable chance of recovering financially and paying off all its obbligations, or, if not, (2) orders that the company be closed, all its assets be sold or auctioned, and the proceeds be distributed fairly among all claimants.

I had understood that MtGOX was forced to file for bankruptcy protection because many clients were already suing it or were about to do so.  The Japanese court easily concluded that MtGOX could never recover from such big losses, even after Mark found the 220'000  BTC that he had "forgotten about", so it determined liquidation.

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DrApricot
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September 05, 2014, 08:18:45 PM
Last edit: September 05, 2014, 08:41:32 PM by DrApricot
 #6142


I had understood that MtGOX was forced to file for bankruptcy protection because many clients were already suing it or were about to do so.  The Japanese court easily concluded that MtGOX could never recover from such big losses, even after Mark found the 220'000  BTC that he had "forgotten about", so it determined liquidation.
Courts rarely do their own investigations, but rather rely upon information the parties before it present. If the Tokyo court was told 850K btc were missing, but the company only had 220k btc, then their ruling sounds reasonable. However, if the court was hoaxed too, and there were really never 850k btc, but only 220k, then their conclusion may have been unintentionally wrong. However, fractional reserves are not illegal, and as long as depositor's demands for withdrawals are met, then there is no reason to declare bankruptcy nor for the court to compel one.
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September 05, 2014, 09:00:03 PM
Last edit: September 06, 2014, 02:17:17 PM by JorgeStolfi
 #6143

2.  Bitcoin was originally not legally considered property so money laundering was technically impossible in the early days of its release.

That may be what the lawyers argued, but AFAIK it did not stick.    The concept of money laundering is more general; the money can be  (and often is) converted to non-money merchandise, such as boats, diamonds, real estate, etc.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/money-laundering.htm

According to what I understood of the charges, "dirty" money from Silk Road customers was turned into bitcoins by Charlie and his partner, sent to the SilkRoad merchants, and the bitcoins from SilkRoad's fees were to be converted to (or used as) money by Ross.  This way, they hoped, the source of Ross's wealth would appear to be legitimate (bitcoins, rather than drugs).

EDIT: typo "SilkRoad"

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September 06, 2014, 02:13:17 PM
 #6144

I think you heard the news right? if not ...

http://mtgox.gr/mtgox-com-reveiced-6-014-910-00-from-okpay-inc
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September 06, 2014, 03:45:15 PM
 #6145

I think you heard the news right? if not ...
Quote
US$ 6,014,910.00
Quote
DESCRIPTION: As a refund of the entire fund deposited in MTGOX3 account Opéned
with OKPAY less 1% of such entire fund, which is paid to OKPAY as a commission fee
for the remittance of such amount.
(typos OCR)


So, 60,149.10 USD for a wire transfer? Wow.


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bernard75
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September 06, 2014, 03:54:06 PM
 #6146

So, 60,149.10 USD for a wire transfer? Wow.
How do you come up with that no?
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September 06, 2014, 03:58:04 PM
 #6147

So, 60,149.10 USD for a wire transfer? Wow.
How do you come up with that no?

US$ 6,014,910.00 * 1% = 60,149.10 USD
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September 06, 2014, 04:11:31 PM
 #6148

I am sure that the standard fee dosnt apply to a refund of that magnitude.
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September 06, 2014, 04:41:35 PM
 #6149

I am sure that the standard fee dosnt apply to a refund of that magnitude.

Sure. Still seems outrageously high.

I have no experience moving that kind of money. If anyone does, I'd be interested to hear about it.

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smoothie
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September 06, 2014, 07:26:38 PM
 #6150

and Sturle is nowhere to be found in this thread? lol  Grin Grin Grin

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September 06, 2014, 07:53:19 PM
 #6151

Haha, ofc they stopped paying him.
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September 06, 2014, 07:55:52 PM
 #6152

and Sturle is nowhere to be found in this thread? lol  Grin Grin Grin

He is selling his car:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=643466.msg7185485#msg7185485
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September 06, 2014, 07:59:40 PM
 #6153

Haha, ofc they stopped paying him.

I liked him. But bad outcome. Nobody could have expect such a mess.
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September 06, 2014, 08:18:44 PM
 #6154

I'm not sure Mt. Gox should have even declared bankruptcy. Although it allegedly once held 850,000 btc, as now 220,000 have been admitted found, then the company could have continued operating on a fractional reserve basis like a bank. If the real reason for the bankruptcy was a freeze placed on their fiat bank accounts, and not "disappeared" bitcoins, then that issue should have been negotiated with Mizuho Bank before declaring bk. Mt. Gox may have been the recipient of very poor legal advice, and it would make more sense now to somehow roll back the bankruptcy proceeding instead of proposing a sale of assets.

From what I know, the purpose of bankruptcy (full name: "bankruptcy protection") is to halt all individual lawsuits by employees, creditors and investors against the company, so that a single court (1) gets to evaluate whether the company has a reasonable chance of recovering financially and paying off all its obbligations, or, if not, (2) orders that the company be closed, all its assets be sold or auctioned, and the proceeds be distributed fairly among all claimants.

I had understood that MtGOX was forced to file for bankruptcy protection because many clients were already suing it or were about to do so.  The Japanese court easily concluded that MtGOX could never recover from such big losses, even after Mark found the 220'000  BTC that he had "forgotten about", so it determined liquidation.
CCIs major conclusions that they have so far released state: (this is google translation)
Quote
CCI experts have focused on alleged involvement of some banks in the affair. Investigating authorities quickly found that cash transfers that were made by several different banks have not reached unattended client accounts in the system of Mt Gox.

The analysis raised the question of whether individual banks in countries such as Poland, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, USA, Canada and Britain had no prior information about the financial position of Mt Gox well before the opening of the insolvency procedure itself.

Collected by CCI information through OSINT warrants investigators to believe that some of the banks have behaved unfairly to their customers. In some cases investigative company even suspect that some banks deliberately concealed information from their customers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=bg&u=http://www.investor.bg/novini/130/a/piramida-li-e-bila-platformata-za-bitkoini-mt-gox,170327/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmt%2Bgox%2Bcci%26biw%3D1375%26bih%3D771
Usually banks  coordinate the movement of funds internationally through a network of overseas correspondent banks. Slowing down or freezing deposits similar to the way OKPay held up Mt. Gox's funds, while speeding up withdrawals would be sufficient to create  a situation in which Mt. Gox's cash flow dried up. Having to declare bankruptcy would then be a very likely result in such case.
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September 06, 2014, 08:21:11 PM
Last edit: September 06, 2014, 08:45:30 PM by DrApricot
 #6155

I'm not sure Mt. Gox should have even declared bankruptcy. Although it allegedly once held 850,000 btc, as now 220,000 have been admitted found, then the company could have continued operating on a fractional reserve basis like a bank. If the real reason for the bankruptcy was a freeze placed on their fiat bank accounts, and not "disappeared" bitcoins, then that issue should have been negotiated with Mizuho Bank before declaring bk. Mt. Gox may have been the recipient of very poor legal advice, and it would make more sense now to somehow roll back the bankruptcy proceeding instead of proposing a sale of assets.

From what I know, the purpose of bankruptcy (full name: "bankruptcy protection") is to halt all individual lawsuits by employees, creditors and investors against the company, so that a single court (1) gets to evaluate whether the company has a reasonable chance of recovering financially and paying off all its obbligations, or, if not, (2) orders that the company be closed, all its assets be sold or auctioned, and the proceeds be distributed fairly among all claimants.

I had understood that MtGOX was forced to file for bankruptcy protection because many clients were already suing it or were about to do so.  The Japanese court easily concluded that MtGOX could never recover from such big losses, even after Mark found the 220'000  BTC that he had "forgotten about", so it determined liquidation.
CCI's major conclusions that they have so far released state: (this is google translation)
Quote
CCI experts have focused on alleged involvement of some banks in the affair. Investigating authorities quickly found that cash transfers that were made by several different banks have not reached unattended client accounts in the system of Mt Gox.

The analysis raised the question of whether individual banks in countries such as Poland, Japan, Switzerland, Germany, USA, Canada and Britain had no prior information about the financial position of Mt Gox well before the opening of the insolvency procedure itself.

Collected by CCI information through OSINT warrants investigators to believe that some of the banks have behaved unfairly to their customers. In some cases investigative company even suspect that some banks deliberately concealed information from their customers.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=bg&u=http://www.investor.bg/novini/130/a/piramida-li-e-bila-platformata-za-bitkoini-mt-gox,170327/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmt%2Bgox%2Bcci%26biw%3D1375%26bih%3D771
Usually banks coordinate the movement of funds internationally through a network of overseas correspondent banks. Slowing down or freezing deposits similar to the way OKPay held up Mt. Gox's funds, while speeding up withdrawals would be sufficient to create  a situation in which Mt. Gox's cash flow dried up. Having to declare bankruptcy would then be a very likely result in such case.

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September 08, 2014, 06:16:52 PM
Last edit: September 08, 2014, 06:34:32 PM by bitcoinvest
 #6156

I think you heard the news right? if not ...

http://mtgox.gr/mtgox-com-reveiced-6-014-910-00-from-okpay-inc


and here is the confirmation grom Coindesk.com article :

http://www.coindesk.com/okpay-ordered-hand-customers-6-1-million-mt-gox/



EDIT: remember this day bitcoiners ! Smiley and listen on 0:09 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF7HxLCFMeY#t=12
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September 08, 2014, 10:36:19 PM
 #6157

EDIT: remember this day bitcoiners ! Smiley and listen on 0:09 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF7HxLCFMeY#t=12

Sounds like "We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."



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September 10, 2014, 12:48:46 AM
 #6158

I am a US citizen who had more than $5000 USD stored in MtGox at the time of its collapse.

What action can I take right now to work towards getting my money back?

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September 10, 2014, 04:29:31 AM
 #6159

I am a US citizen who had more than $5000 USD stored in MtGox at the time of its collapse.
What action can I take right now to work towards getting my money back?

Citizenship is not important.  You should file a claim with the Japanese court-appointed liquidator, Mr. Nobuaky Kobayashi.  Links and information were posted in this thread a couple of weeks ago; look for "creditors meeting".  Some information is available in the MtGOX original website http://www.mtgox.com, but that site may still be managed by Mark, I dont know.

The deadline for filing claims was Nov/2014 but has been postponed to May/2015.  There is no date yet for when the spoils will be distributed.  Be prepared to get only 1/5 of your claim, at most.

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September 10, 2014, 05:30:37 AM
 #6160

I am a US citizen who had more than $5000 USD stored in MtGox at the time of its collapse.
What action can I take right now to work towards getting my money back?

Citizenship is not important.  You should file a claim with the Japanese court-appointed liquidator, Mr. Nobuaky Kobayashi.  Links and information were posted in this thread a couple of weeks ago; look for "creditors meeting".  Some information is available in the MtGOX original website http://www.mtgox.com, but that site may still be managed by Mark, I dont know.

The deadline for filing claims was Nov/2014 but has been postponed to May/2015.  There is no date yet for when the spoils will be distributed.  Be prepared to get only 1/5 of your claim, at most.

You can't file claims yet.
Quote
The method for filing claims will be published on this site as soon as we are in a situation to announce it.

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