MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[JorgeStolfi]

It's a huge win for lawyers and accountants who will profit when the rightful owners of Mt. Gox's bitcoins can't agree on how to settle the matter. The only way to reverse this is for depositors to somehow work together and overturn this liquidation with an out-of-court settlement.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious though--liquidation is a total "no-win" for everyone. Even Spock would agree, liquidation isn't "logical" when there can be a better way.

You mean, let Sunlot get possession of the coins and money, instead of the liquidator? 

I give up, I don't know what else to say...

[JorgeStolfi]

Please folks, what you think is fair and what you would like to happen is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT at this point.  You should GET A LAWYER competent in Japanese bankruptcy law and ask him what is likely to happen and what choices you have, if any.

I don't understand you folks.  You were royally screwed by a couple of sleazy bitcoin entrepreneurs.  Now you want to take the little that is left of your money from the hands of the law -- which WILL return most of it to you, as fairly as possible -- and give it to other sleazy bitcoin entrepreneurs -- which will probably be the same guys who scammed you, actually.

[JorgeStolfi]

PS.  My favorite theory of what happened at MtGOX is that the missing coins were bought at MtGOX by one or more people, through normal trading but with non-existing money (that is, with credit created by the exchange from thin air) and sold in China, during or after the April 2013 bubble.  But those people then defaulted on the credit, by accident or by plan; the proceeds of the sales in China were somehow lost or pocketed, and MtGOX was left without coins and without money. 

If this theory is correct, the scam probably was known and/or helped by many people besides MtGOX's management -- perhaps some of the largest clients, some friends of the management, some Chinese exchange owners, some intermediaries with business connections in China and/or Japan, ...  And those people would naturally try by all means to stop the liquidation and any investigation of the theft ...

[DrApricot]

PS.  My favorite theory of what happened at MtGOX is that the missing coins were bought at MtGOX by one or more people, through normal trading but with non-existing money (that is, with credit created by the exchange from thin air) and sold in China, during or after the April 2013 bubble.  But those people then defaulted on the credit, by accident or by plan; the proceeds of the sales in China were somehow lost or pocketed, and MtGOX was left without coins and without money.  

If this theory is correct, the scam probably was known and/or helped by many people besides MtGOX's management -- perhaps some of the largest clients, some friends of the management, some Chinese exchange owners, some intermediaries with business connections in China and/or Japan, ...  And those people would naturally try by all means to stop the liquidation and any investigation of the theft ...

Your theory makes a lot of sense to me, yet there must have been more to it such as the seemingly synchronized negative PR campaign against bitcoin timed with the closure of Mt. Gox, the DDoS and transaction malleability hacking attacks in late February on it and other exchanges, as well as beforehand the rather dubious behaviour of the company's banks in slowing down its deposits in order to create an artificial cash squeeze.

The ultimate purpose of all these coordinated actions may have been to create a situation for the company wherein a takeover would be the only possible remedy. Liquidation may be a good way to prevent a takeover, yet it will also be very difficult for customers to have to wait so long and settle for so much less than they had there on deposit. That's why I would favour a simple and quick out-of-court settlement instead of a protracted liquidation. However, a takeover seems like the worst of both worlds, and should, if possible, be avoided.

[DrApricot]

If this theory is correct, the scam probably was known and/or helped by many people besides MtGOX's management -- perhaps some of the largest clients, some friends of the management, some Chinese exchange owners, some intermediaries with business connections in China and/or Japan, ...  And those people would naturally try by all means to stop the liquidation and any investigation of the theft ...

Sound familiar?. (Hint: In the news article below, substitute the word "hackers" for "suppliers", "depositors" for "people/workers/staff", "bitcoins" for "jobs", and "Mt. Gox" for "Phones4U".)

Asset-stripping by bosses finished Phones4U
How Phones4U failed

More than 5,500 people in 550 workplaces across Britain could lose their jobs after sales company Phones4U went into administration.

Phones4U bosses have done everything they can to paint themselves as victims of duplicity by its ruthless suppliers. They are less keen to talk about their own role.

Former boss John Caudwell made £1.5 billion when he sold it to private equity sharks.

It is currently owned by BC Partners, which bought it with money it didn’t have then milked it dry to pay off debts.

This meant that Phones4U had little “commercial flexibility” as its massive profits went towards paying its creditors. This led to it losing out in the cutthroat competition between rival companies.

BC Partners still made a 30 percent profit out of the scam. But the staff who made their success possible have been kept in the dark then thrown to the wolves.

One shop worker told Socialist Worker, “I knew for about six months that things were coming to an end, but was told I was wrong.

“Upper management were chopping and cutting back staff levels to an unmanageable degree and expecting everyone to do more. They cut commissions massively last year, then again in July.

“The messages from the top were inconsistent and contradictory. They knew this was coming.”
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art/39005/Asset-stripping+by+bosses+finished+Phones4U

[freedombit]

If this theory is correct, the scam probably was known and/or helped by many people besides MtGOX's management -- perhaps some of the largest clients, some friends of the management, some Chinese exchange owners, some intermediaries with business connections in China and/or Japan, ...  And those people would naturally try by all means to stop the liquidation and any investigation of the theft ...

There are too many people that have a significant interest in this case, and the Bitcoin value doesn't disappear, it just transfers. Mark Karpeles, Nobuaki Kobayashi, and probably others have key pieces of information that can easily be made public:

1) The total Bitcoin and fiat lost
2) The destination addresses (in the case of Bitcoin) and SWIFT accounts (in the case of fiat) where the cash and assets were pulled (or transferred)

Any government official that has the authority to enforce the release of this information and fails to do so will fall into great public scrutiny and I think not fair well as it only hurts the Japanese economy. I just don't think that the Japanese society will allow this to be brushed under the table. Too many eyes are watching worldwide, and if Bitcoin becomes a world currency and it's value strengthens, then the actions today will be further scrutinized in five or ten years.

Nazi war criminals from WWII are still being chased today:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130507-nazi-war-criminal-holocaust-auschwitz-hans-lipschis-simon-wiesenthal-center-demjanjuk/

As much as many Bitcoin fans would like to see the MtGox issue go away, anything short of the truth will only damage its reputation amongst the very core people that helped it get to where it is now.

[Newar]

Some reading material (it really starts from about page 25):

http://k.lenz.name/LB/?p=10916

I have written a short book on Bitcoin regulation in Japan. A free PDF file is here:

Lenz Japanese Bitcoin Law

[vayvanne]

it would be interesting to back track btcs are dumping on okcoin to check are they origin from mtgox or not.

[bitcoinvest]

what can we expect from this?

http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/court-partially-certifies-canadian-class-action-lawsuit-in-mt-gox-collapse-276974341.html

[JorgeStolfi]

what can we expect from this?
http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/court-partially-certifies-canadian-class-action-lawsuit-in-mt-gox-collapse-276974341.html

So the Canadian victims too agreed with the Sunlot plan? All of them?

IMHO, if the Japanese court agrees to turn MtGOX over to Sunlot, you can expect that the management of MtGOX will walk away free and keep all that they got, that Sunlot will distribute some part of the remaining 200'000 BTC to the victims (after taking their cut),  that there will be no criminal investigation, and that the new MtGOX will flop so those 16.5% equity will be worthless.

[iikun]

what can we expect from this?
http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/court-partially-certifies-canadian-class-action-lawsuit-in-mt-gox-collapse-276974341.html

So the Canadian victims too agreed with the Sunlot plan? All of them?

IMHO, if the Japanese court agrees to turn MtGOX over to Sunlot, you can expect that the management of MtGOX will walk away free and keep all that they got, that Sunlot will distribute some part of the remaining 200'000 BTC to the victims (after taking their cut),  that there will be no criminal investigation, and that the new MtGOX will flop so those 16.5% equity will be worthless.

or Sunlot, after taking over, could just as easily claim the problem was bigger than they thought & arrange to wind the company up. As according to the equity split at that time they would then walk away with the majority of 200,000btc (against their investment of 1btc). I don't trust Kobayashi even to wipe his ass after he goes to the toilet so I can easily see him "overlooking" adequate safeguards as would prevent this kind of thing from happening.

[hgmichna]

… I don't trust Kobayashi even to wipe his ass after he goes to the toilet …

Japanese toilets have auto-clean warm water jets. So no problem, at least not for him. 

[bitcoinvest]

after so many months why no response from Tokyo Police? what are the investigation results? why no updates on mtgox.com from Kobayashi?

[IIpeBeD_MeDBeD]

after so many months why no response from Tokyo Police? what are the investigation results? why no updates on mtgox.com from Kobayashi?

because we dont see our bitcoins
NEVER 

[JorgeStolfi]

after so many months why no response from Tokyo Police? what are the investigation results? why no updates on mtgox.com from Kobayashi?

Most likely, the police will not go public until they (a) identify the criminal, try to arrest him, and are ready to file charges; or (b) decide that they cannot solve the case, and archive it.

Think of how long it took for the FBI to come open on their investigation of Charlie Shrem and Ross Ulbricht. 

[OhShei8e]

If you like to participate. Letter to Bankruptcy trustee:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678457.msg9096145#msg9096145

[freedombit]

If you like to participate. Letter to Bankruptcy trustee:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=678457.msg9096145#msg9096145

Thanks OhShei8e!

This is an important effort for the entire cryptocurrency community. Without knowing what happened at MtGox, and without doing our best to have MtGox depositors reimbursed, trust in exchanges and cryptocurrency will be mild at best. If we want cryptocurrency to become ubiquitous, we, the early adopters, must protect it.

Please do not pass judgement until the truth is known. There is no good reason why Japanese authorities and the administrator shouldn't release the "Last Known Bitcoin Addresses" that held MtGox deposits. Same with FIAT.

We are in uncharted waters. There is no law or enforcement authority that can handle this like we can as a community. Any help is welcomed!

[bitcoinvest]

I just visited http://www.bitcoins.com

and after the American Court has blocked the sale of this domain what i saw was that THEY SELL IT AGAIN!!!!

How can they do that? Who? Mark is doing this? or Kobayashi?

What is going on???

See for yourself!: http://www.bitcoins.com/index.html

BITCOINS.COM is for sale
Please contact us if you would like to purchase BITCOINS.COM.

This domain was created on Thu 30 Mar 2000 10:48:38 PM JST and can be bought from us. Alternatively you can register your own domain from KalyHost and get a server from FOREVER.net.*
Other domains for sale

    PEERDB.COM
    FAR-REALMS.COM
    CASHFLOW-CENTRAL.COM
    REDCRISTIANA.NET
    BITCOIN.HN
    PAPERBITCOINWALLET.COM
    KUMO.GD
    DBDYNAMICS.COM
    MGINC.COM
    WROTEIT.COM


Contact Details:
By postal mail
Tibanne Co.,Ltd.
11-5 Shibuya 2-Chome
150-0002 Shibuya Tokyo
Japan
P: 03-4520-6200
F: 03-4520-6299



* IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW: FOREVER.net belongs to Mark Karpeles... Read here :http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-avoids-bitcoin-launches-web-hosting-service/

EDIT: kalyhost.com : Powered by Tibanne Co. Ltd. - Copyright 2009-2014 - Legal

So along with the Sale of the Domain they also making marketing for new customers for Forever.net....

That means they took our BTC, we don't know what we are taking back or what is going on... and they do whatever they like.... They even taking more profit with every way they can... and we stay behind screens and just monitoring Perfect !

[macsga]

I just visited http://www.bitcoins.com

and after the American Court has blocked the sale of this domain what i saw was that THEY SELL IT AGAIN!!!!

How can they do that? Who? Mark is doing this? or Kobayashi?

What is going on???

See for yourself!: http://www.bitcoins.com/index.html

BITCOINS.COM is for sale
Please contact us if you would like to purchase BITCOINS.COM.

This domain was created on Thu 30 Mar 2000 10:48:38 PM JST and can be bought from us. Alternatively you can register your own domain from KalyHost and get a server from FOREVER.net.*
Other domains for sale

    PEERDB.COM
    FAR-REALMS.COM
    CASHFLOW-CENTRAL.COM
    REDCRISTIANA.NET
    BITCOIN.HN
    PAPERBITCOINWALLET.COM
    KUMO.GD
    DBDYNAMICS.COM
    MGINC.COM
    WROTEIT.COM


Contact Details:
By postal mail
Tibanne Co.,Ltd.
11-5 Shibuya 2-Chome
150-0002 Shibuya Tokyo
Japan
P: 03-4520-6200
F: 03-4520-6299



* IN CASE YOU DON'T KNOW: FOREVER.net belongs to Mark Karpeles... Read here :http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-avoids-bitcoin-launches-web-hosting-service/

EDIT: kalyhost.com : Powered by Tibanne Co. Ltd. - Copyright 2009-2014 - Legal

So along with the Sale of the Domain they also making marketing for new customers for Forever.net....

That means they took our BTC, we don't know what we are taking back or what is going on... and they do whatever they like.... They even taking more profit with every way they can... and we stay behind screens and just monitoring Perfect !

First of, I think that it's not a bad thing for MK to sell this domain. As he stated back in July:

“We are hoping, with the sale of Bitcoins.com, to provide some relief to the people impacted by the Mt. Gox bankruptcy and will be putting at least half of the sale amount toward that purpose.”

(1)

The fact that lead the auction to a halt was nothing but CoinLab – which agreed to support Mt. Gox’s bankruptcy plan – moved to prevent the sale back then (2)

Now, there's always the chance Coinlab has risen their objections on the sale, maybe primarily due to the fact they saw from the auction course that there's a significant amount to be acquired, secondly, because their objection lead to nothing useful to the people who lost their assets from the Mt. Gox. I foresee that the 200K btc plus some extra cash will make a lot of people STFU and don't force their hands towards either Tibbane or MK.

Further reading:
1. http://www.coindesk.com/mark-karpeles-sell-bitcoins-com-domain-name/
2. http://www.coindesk.com/auction-bitcoins-com-domain-halted-us-court/

[bitcoinvest]

i totally disagree with you because since there is:

No police investigation results
No comments from Kobayashi about that


...and i have many more to tell you.

 Imagine what would happen if the court along with the police have found all the mising coins but the domain is sold....
Assets of the company would have gone away....

All the actions must take place AFTER final word of court and police investigation.



EDIT: the further reading link is part of the past... and we all know what happened....
What we need is news on what is happening NOW