[BTC-TC] Deprived Mining Speculation (DMS)

[Deprived]

I haven't bothered taking a management fee for the few sales yesterday/today prior to BTC-TC's announcement.  Obviously there'll be no management in future unless/until sales of PURCHASE reopen.

BTC Balance (BTC-TC)   1142.774967
9071 LTC-ATF.B1    90.71000000
CIPHERMINE Bonds    360.61000000
Coinlenders CD 27/9   203.0881027
Coinlenders Cash   0
Just-Dice Balance    153.86146722
TOTAL ASSETS    1,951.04453736
   
Outstanding MINING   210981
Outstanding SELLING   210981
Outstanding PURCHASE   14397
Effective Units   225378
   
Block reward   25

Difficulty   112,628,549
Hashes per MINING   5000000
   
Daily Dividend    0.00002233
50 days (Min Liquid)    0.00111629
100 days (Forced Close)    0.00223259
365 days (Buyback)    0.00814895
405 days (IPO)    0.00904199
400 days (Post SELLING div)    0.00893036
410 days (Pre SELLING div)    0.00915361
   
NAV Post MINING Div    1,946.01277294
NAV/U Post MINING Div    0.00863444
Days Dividend Post Div   386.75
SELLING Dividend    -         
NAV Post SELLING Div    1,946.01277294
NAV/U Post Selling Div    0.00863444 << Now there's no investments/sales this is what MINING+SELLING should add to (less any discount you believe needs to be applied to CIPHERMINE bonds.
PURCHASE selling price    0.009066
PURCHASE buy-back price    0.008462

[FloatesMcgoates]

Dear All,

This turn of events is unexpected and I shall not lie: almost certainly pretty bad for most of our shareholders.

As Giles said, we are looking at options as to how to proceed. The options under consideration are (in no particular order):

a) Move to a friedcat-style direct share ownership scheme
b) Migrate to a different exchange such as crypto-trade or Havelock
c) Create a new exchange (can't go into details right now but this is a possibility)
d) Forcibly buy back all shares (at a rate decided by the major shareholders, ie. me, Giles and a couple of others)

However, I must forewarn you that I do not think it is going to be practical to give all shareholders the same levels of attention in this transition. I am committed to looking after our major shareholders (eg. those with >500 or perhaps >1,000 share) but it may not be practical to switch to a friedcat-like system of direct share ownership with the large numbers of shareholders we have, nor to migrate all of you to a new exchange.

I therefore encourage those of you with a small number of shares to take what you can over the next week to get some value from the shares you have (ie. sell them) to avoid potentially being left with nothing at all should we end up in a situation where we cannot look after you all.

To be blunt, this experience has resulted in me getting royally screwed (I have significant holdings in addition to CipherMine on these exchanges). I am angry that this has come to pass and am tempted to take steps to close the door, taking CipherMine in-house with a very small number of investors. In practice, it would be simplest for us to walk away at this point (and with the exchange closing one could deem our contract as coming to a natural end) but I am going to take at least some steps to make good.

Anyway, the above is just me sharing some early, probably emotional, thoughts. I will be discussing the matter with our major investors (both in CIPHERMINE and CIPHERMINE.B1 the BTC bond) in due course. Unfortunately I have other pressing matters to attend to for the next 48 hours so please excuse a lack of comms in the mean time.

Kate.

That was a message from Kate regarding how she is going to proceed with the situation, hopefully Deprived is considered "Major" enough such that the bonds are still worth face value.

[Deprived]

Craziness on J-D today BTW.

Think it hadd dropped to about -1500 when we withdrew (I didn't make a note of it).  It then fell to worse than -3K but the guy has proceeded to give a chunk back and looks like he just ran out of his current batch of cash with J-D house back up to nearly +3k.  So terrible timing for us - but such is life (I wouldn't have pulled our cash if it wasn't for BTC-TC closing of course).

[Deprived]

DMS' J-D funds have now been withdrawn BTW.

I gave link to the address earlier, here's the transaction ID with the withdrawal : 040ff50735e1c8946f5d038b45b277c69fd68f63989897dd909b34dba718b433

It doesn't show up on blockexplorer yet but my wallet already picked it up so it definitely went.

[001sonkit]

I totally don't trust Bitfunder, both for the laughable security bugs found in the past, and for the terribile terrible step of using the horrible weExchange (worse than the inputs.io crap to use coinlenders, lol).

That said, I'm no longer holding DMS shares, simply because I think they matched their real value now, so my opinion in this matter shouldn't have as much weight as that of someone who still has them.

Let's say that if DMS moves to Havelock I might trade it again if in future the price becomes inbalanced again and I see opportunity for profit, while if it moves to Bitfunder I won't touch it no matter what.

Agree with that, Bitfunder sucks on UX UI, Security, how it works blah blah blah. On havelock the seems there isnt fee except withdrwal if i am still up to date... anyway thanks for whoever dropped 0.0045 DMSSELLING on my hand. My Pleasure

[NineLives]

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update.  I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

[Lohoris]

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update.  I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

Try reading the last few pages, maybe?

[Rannasha]

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update.  I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

There's some discussion about this on the last few pages. The gist of it:
- Most of the funds assets are coins. Only 360 BTC worth of CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds are uncertain.
- The entire fund may move to a different exchange, motions may be posted about this.
- If the fund doesn't move and gets closed down, Deprived will divide the coins in the fund over the shareholders (ratio MINING:SELLING to be determined).
- Trading of MINING & SELLING will continue for 2 more weeks, but PURCHASE has been locked.

Read the last few pages for more info.

[NineLives]

Hi guys,

Please can someone give me an update.  I'm a bit lost to whats going on?

BTCT.co is closing so what happens to our shares?
I doubt I goto sell off before it closes so what do I need to do?

Can someone advise pls..

Ta..

There's some discussion about this on the last few pages. The gist of it:
- Most of the funds assets are coins. Only 360 BTC worth of CIPHERMINE.B1 bonds are uncertain.
- The entire fund may move to a different exchange, motions may be posted about this.
- If the fund doesn't move and gets closed down, Deprived will divide the coins in the fund over the shareholders (ratio MINING:SELLING to be determined).
- Trading of MINING & SELLING will continue for 2 more weeks, but PURCHASE has been locked.

Read the last few pages for more info.

Great update.  thank you.

[Deprived]

Just a point for anyone struggling to work out how to price the shares with uncertainty over what will happen with CIPHERMINE bonds.

If you valued those bonds at 0 then NAV/U for PURCHASE would be : .00703442
That's pretty much the worse case scenario - and it's VERY unlikely the bonds will be worth nothing.  So don't panic sell where MINING+SELLING would come to less than that.

I'll sling some of my cash on and try to keep the price at least at that - so those who desperately want out now don't lose out too horribly.  But I'd seriously not recommend selling even that cheap.

Once we have the Coinlenders cash back (in my wallet or here) then the fund itself can buy back at those prices - until then I can't buyback with the fund itself even that high just in case a load of TF's cash happened to be in BTC-TC securities that crashed or whatever (which I don't rate as at all likely).

I won't be selling any DMS shares I buy up (or any I already hold) - I'm just doing it because I'd hate to see investors panicking and selling at stupidly cheap prices.  I'll only be moving 100 BTC on initially - if anyone's desperate to sell large amounts I could sort something out but I don't recommend it.  Right now the trading ranges seem reasonable - amounting to a fairly small discount on NAV/U.

I'm also about to put up advisory motions on relisting.  My personal viewpoint is moving more and more towards relisting - as much as anything so I can duck out of defining prices for MINING/SELLING   But also because at an absolute minimum there's going to be cash left for SELLING after the 2 week period - I can't see any likelihood of the CIPHERMINE bonds being cashed out within a few months (when I bought them the plan was always just to gradually sell them to keep them at ~20% of capital, which we'd been doing fine - with about 10% of them sold already without really trying).

[Rannasha]

A relevant quote from Kate Woodrake (Ciphermine):

I am more inclined to offer as a discounted, or possibly forced, buy-back of CIPHERMINE.B1 (the bond issued on BTC TC). At least 50% of the bondholders are investment funds who will likely want their money ASAP; I can't see how their funds can survive this unfortunately.

(the actual quote is larger, but I only copied the part relevant for DMS)

Obviously DMS can survive "this" with a move to another platform. A forced buy-back at a discounted rate would be pretty bad, but if it's at regular face value, I guess it would be good.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Wont using fund money to buy back individual shares at this rate lower NAV/U?

[Rannasha]

Wont using fund money to buy back individual shares at this rate lower NAV/U?

Deprived is using his own coins, not fund money (if I understood his post correctly).

[FloatesMcgoates]

Deprived, are you planning to offer any services where an individual might exchange a SELLING+MINING for NAV/U price (or slight discount)? I mainly ask this because you seem to be leaning towards going to another exchange while I am currently feeling way too spooked to hold any sort of bitcoin security.

[Deprived]

Wont using fund money to buy back individual shares at this rate lower NAV/U?

Deprived is using his own coins, not fund money (if I understood his post correctly).

No fund money will be used on buybacks until I have a NAV/U that I'm confident about - at a minimum a lower bound.  I'm just moving some of my own money on so I can step in and stop any really stupid panic selling.

The latest post from Kate is much better than her initial one (it's quoted above in part by Ranasha).  I just responded to it - right now the situation as I see it is:

If DMS continues on a new exchange then I wouldn't be actively seeking any change to the bond contract and wouldn't be interested in a buyback at any discount.  I would, however, consent to selling back immediately at full face value if that was what they wanted (by the contract they should pay a fairly hefty premium to do that - but I'd waive that).
If DMS closes down then I'd consider a small discount if it meant getting the cash now rather than in 3 months (which is what the contract entitles us to).

I'm not going to be pushing for resolution on it - realistically they need to decide what they're doing with CIPHERMINE then it should be obvious what they want to do with the bonds.  As neither DMS or CIPHERMINE has lost any significant assets due to BTC-TC closing there's no real reason why either party should NEED to change the contract.

[Deprived]

Deprived, are you planning to offer any services where an individual might exchange a SELLING+MINING for NAV/U price (or slight discount)? I mainly ask this because you seem to be leaning towards going to another exchange while I am currently feeling way too spooked to hold any sort of bitcoin security.

Once NAV/U is established (i.e. we know what's happening with CIPHERMINE and have the Coinlenders cash back) yes - I'd definitely be offering repurchases just as I did before, both on PURCHASE and also on MINING+SELLING pairs.  The detail of the resolution in respect of CIPHERMINE may obviously amend what value I place on it in the books at that point.  As we'd no longer have any investments I'd actually be willing to do this at a lower % reduction than we previously have - we're now in territory that the contract couldn't predict and my main intention is to try to minimise any loss people take as a result of BTC-TC closing (whilst maintaining whatever profit/loss their position had gained prior to that point).

Right now I'm personally willing to buy up pairs of MINING+SELLING at .0075 in decent quantites (10+ BTC worth) as following Kate's last posts I now believe we're likely to recover substantial value from CIPHERMINING.  But I believe if you hang on for a few days to a week it's likely you'd get back ..008+ (less whatever is paid out in dividends in the meantime).

[Lytse]

Deprived, are you planning to offer any services where an individual might exchange a SELLING+MINING for NAV/U price (or slight discount)? I mainly ask this because you seem to be leaning towards going to another exchange while I am currently feeling way too spooked to hold any sort of bitcoin security.

Right now I'm personally willing to buy up pairs of MINING+SELLING at .0075 in decent quantites (10+ BTC worth)

Can you create a tradebot that pays out when sending in a MINING+SELLING pair?

[HowlingMad]

Right now I'm personally willing to buy up pairs of MINING+SELLING at .0075 in decent quantites (10+ BTC worth)

Deprived,
Since I am the FIRST vote for relisting, I will bring up the subject in advance of the new stock exchange.  (Ha, beat the rest of you to the dms.selling motion!)

Was I supposed to be buying mining and selling as pairs?  I was just buying purchase and selling. 

Thank you for driving the keyboard so hard during all the lunacy!  It keeps us out here (mostly) sane.

[Deprived]

Right now I'm personally willing to buy up pairs of MINING+SELLING at .0075 in decent quantites (10+ BTC worth)

Deprived,
Since I am the FIRST vote for relisting, I will bring up the subject in advance of the new stock exchange.  (Ha, beat the rest of you to the dms.selling motion!)

Was I supposed to be buying mining and selling as pairs?  I was just buying purchase and selling. 

Thank you for driving the keyboard so hard during all the lunacy!  It keeps us out here (mostly) sane.

No you weren't meant to be buying up pairs - the reason teh fund always bought up pairs (and why I'm offering to) is because there's nothing subjective in the value of a pair (it equals NAV/U of PURCHASE).  And also because that ensures (when the fund does the buying) that the same number of MINING+SELLING stay in circulation (which is pretty important).

[Deprived]

I've put two advisory motions up on each of MINING and SELLING.

One motion is WHETHER you want to relist.
The other is WHERE to relist if we DO relist - expressing a view there will NOT be taken as indicating that you prefer to relist.

If there's a clear majority of BOTH Mining and Selling who want to shut down then we WILL shut down - if most people want out and are happy for me to pick the final prices then we'll do that.

The vote on where to relist would be taken into account if appropriate (i.e. if we DO relist) but ultimately it's highly likely that other factors will end up making the decision for us.

Whilst I'm not going to disclose precisely how I would split funds between MINING/SELLING if we close down (as it would likely screw up prices if we then didn't close down) I HAVE worked out a basis on which I can determine whether I got it roughly right AFTER the fact.  If I get complaints BOTH from those holding MINING AND from those holding SELLING that I screwed them then I can be pretty sure I got the price about right