plasmoske
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The realist
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November 08, 2013, 06:00:16 AM |
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Make a bitbet for 'Possibility of either 16nm, 18nm or 20nm bitcoin miner appearing in 2014'.
You say 16nm is impossible. I agree with that now. You say 20nm is impossible. I say maybe.
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Minor
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November 08, 2013, 06:48:16 AM |
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Well TSMC 20nm line starting in 2014 is CLN20SOC, for low powered devices (think mobile phones, <10W, system on a chip type designs). TSMC high performance 20nm line won't be available til Q3-2014 and even then prices are extremely high and availability very limited. So yes I would say impossible not a stretch but we will see.
By the time 20nm Bitcoin mining ASICs come out, energy consumption will probably be a higher concern than computing power, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them being designed using the Low Power recipe. |
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Minor
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November 08, 2013, 06:53:38 AM |
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I'm starting to be scared by the fact that everyone will ask for a refund because they will be unable to ship by the end of this year.
If this happens (at this point i really hope not), they will go bankrupt. (again, this will result in the first open source 28nm bitcoin chip! ftw!).
HashFast going bankrupt is no guaranty that their IP will go Open Source, on the contrary. Some firm will be charged of selling their IP to the highest bidder to try to extract the maximum value for their creditors. I think it goes something like: employees first, suppliers next, then official investors and finally, if anything is left, customers asking for a refund. |
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Minor
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November 08, 2013, 06:57:28 AM |
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The MPP comes as complete boards (not raw chips).
Do we know that for a fact? I thought that that announcement had been said to have been premature and never officially confirmed. (But I will admit to not having read all the 130+ pages of this thread so I might have missed the confirmation.) |
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HashFast_CL
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Merit: 100
HashFast Community Liaison
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November 08, 2013, 07:02:47 AM |
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The MPP comes as complete boards (not raw chips).
Do we know that for a fact? All HashFast MPP ASICs come as complete boards, not raw chips. This was confirmed here earlier and posted on HashFast's blog. https://hashfast.com/official-update-on-the-miner-protection-program/Official Update to the Miner Protection Program™
Posted on October 14, 2013
by John Skrodenis
in Uncategorized
We have received such a positive response to the added benefit that the MPP will provide full modules for batches 2 & 3, that we have officially decided to extend this benefit to everyone covered by the HashFast Miner Protection Program™ in Batch 1.
This means that full modules will be made available to cover any MPP obligation to Batch 1 Baby Jet customers. At that time, Hashfast will make empty rigs available for sale at competitive prices.
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"Bitcoin enables ordinary people to fight back, to avoid and evade snooping governments, which enact, use and abuse laws that allow them, without due process, to investigate, tax, control and seize privately owned assets." - Leon Louw
“We can say without equivocation that firms like MasterCard, Visa and the TBTF banks like JPMorgan and Goldman hate the idea of ever having to compete for business again. They have grown comfortable in their corrupt world of writing laws for themselves without any regulatory oversight. They enjoy the exorbitant privilege of bilking the American economy with extortionary transaction rates. They are scared of Bitcoin. And they should be. It offers transparency, cost efficiency and anonymity.” - Max Kaiser
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defcon23
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November 08, 2013, 07:57:36 AM |
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Aside from the terrible use of English and bad formatting of the update, the key area is of course the substrate information.
"We’ve made key improvements to the design that can be incorporated even into those substrates that are already in manufacturing"
You have substrate in manufacturing and now realise you have an issue with it? Regardless you think you can modify those substrates with the 'improved' design.
"Even so, the latest delivery estimates for the modified, improved substrate design are three weeks from today. This means that we would be shipping our first rigs mid-December."
And you didn't know this 2 days ago when I emailed asking for a shipping update. You didn't know this 2 weeks ago when you were 'on schedule' for October shipping.
Most importantly you didn't know this 4 weeks ago when I placed a large order. But wait, what is this I see in your email?
"So for the last several weeks, we've been engaged with an additional team to work on an additional substrate"
Ahhh you did know! But knowingly lied to me about it.
So what it boils down to is this:
"Essentially, we now have two teams racing to produce the best and fastest substrate. As soon as that is done, we'll marry the substrates to the finished wafer and begin assembly of the rigs."
Where have I heard this before... that's right... 2 weeks ago.
In reality... you still have NO CONFIRMED SOLUTION and are allegedly working with two teams to try and save your ass and ship something before the end of December.
So the fact remains, you DO NOT have a working substrate and CAN NOT advise when you will thus have NO IDEA when you will ship.
But hey, at least you are building the best quality machine... that will be one hell of a paper weight by January.
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smoothie
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Merit: 1474
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
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November 08, 2013, 08:54:53 AM |
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Is anyone actually surprised that this would happen?
I'm not accusing them of scamming or anything but I had a choice to purchase their first gen machines back in Aug and when I thought about it it just didn't seem worth the wait.
Now that their original deadline for shipping units has past, it is clear I've made the right decision.
Good luck to those who purchased a unit from them.
The ROI of invested BTC back then likely will never be recouped in terms of BTC.
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| . ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM My PGP fingerprint is A764D833. History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA BITCOIN GRIM REAPER SILVER COINS.
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RoadStress
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November 08, 2013, 12:04:46 PM |
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Gen2 sometime in march, altech/knc announcing work already underway on 16/20nm designs.
Yes it was an assumption on my part. It may not be 16nm (looking now - too early/costly) but I think knc will have something to announce soon for 2014. 20nm in march might be a stretch but nothing is impossible.
Gen2 will be a better 28nm chip. Gen3 will be 20nm/16nm. Simple. There is no 20nm or better in March. |
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aerobatic
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November 08, 2013, 12:25:36 PM |
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Gen2 sometime in march, altech/knc announcing work already underway on 16/20nm designs.
Yes it was an assumption on my part. It may not be 16nm (looking now - too early/costly) but I think knc will have something to announce soon for 2014. 20nm in march might be a stretch but nothing is impossible.
Gen2 will be a better 28nm chip. Gen3 will be 20nm/16nm. Simple. There is no 20nm or better in March. tsmc's schedule is discussed here... quite a lot of detail (14 pages) http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1319679confirms customers are taping out 20nm designs now and they've done quite a few already, and will start 16nm in 2014. |
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Syke
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November 08, 2013, 03:23:48 PM |
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confirms customers are taping out 20nm designs now and they've done quite a few already, and will start 16nm in 2014.
Yeah, but none of those 20nm designs are bitcoin miners. |
Buy & Hold
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aerobatic
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November 08, 2013, 03:36:51 PM |
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confirms customers are taping out 20nm designs now and they've done quite a few already, and will start 16nm in 2014.
Yeah, but none of those 20nm designs are bitcoin miners. that doesn't mean they couldn't be. actually, bitcoin mining asics would be an ideal asic for them to prove their fab and processes, as the bitcoin asics are very yield tolerant. most of the die surface is repeated hashing engines, and if one or more is knocked out due to a defect it doesn't take down the whole chip... so its actually advantageous for them to try out their new 20 and 16nm processes... -- Jez |
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Puppet
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November 08, 2013, 03:49:51 PM |
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actually, bitcoin mining asics would be an ideal asic for them to prove their fab and processes, as the bitcoin asics are very yield tolerant. most of the die surface is repeated hashing engines, and if one or more is knocked out due to a defect it doesn't take down the whole chip... so its actually advantageous for them to try out their new 20 and 16nm processes...
-- Jez
I was thinking the same. Plus power efficiency is (or will) be even more crucial than with almost any other application and sales margins -for the time being at least- are higher than any other asic I can think off. The key question is what margins (for a more energy efficient chip) will be like next year, but if they can sell them soon enough, Im also inclined to believe that it can happen. |
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Syke
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November 08, 2013, 03:53:40 PM |
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Yeah, but none of those 20nm designs are bitcoin miners.
that doesn't mean they couldn't be. Yeah, and I could find a bitcoin block with my CPU mining today. Sure, it's possible. |
Buy & Hold
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m3sSh3aD
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November 08, 2013, 06:46:16 PM |
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That probably is the least of your worries. BFL hasn't even shipped all minirigs from last year.
One more lie, added to the books! I will never understand why, with lots of legitimate complaints people have against BFL, some people feel the need to lie about it and make up information. It's absolutely mind boggling. Shit man, your full of verbal diahoria you are ain't you josh! Just like the monarch by November... I mean December..... I mean January... I mean, oh fuck it, July 2014! Be honest josh, your equipment stinks just like you and bfl |
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dopamine
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November 08, 2013, 08:37:37 PM |
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So whats the update on refund? I dont see them meeting their next deadline and want a refund? How much BTC are we losing because they lied? If they said end of year shipment or late nov I would of never would think about buying a babyjet... end of oct was a risk but why would a customer take a loss when a company is gonna make millions without even shipping a product?
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Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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cedivad
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November 08, 2013, 08:52:39 PM |
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You are right. What they did, laying on the TSMC projected tapeout timing, is unacceptable. We gave them money only because of this lay.
So what? I personally can't even find a lawyer!
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My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive: Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers |
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iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
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November 08, 2013, 09:05:41 PM |
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So what? I personally can't even find a lawyer!
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Monero
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| "The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect." Adam Back 2014
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joshv06
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November 08, 2013, 10:56:03 PM |
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When will we get out Baby Jets? |
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j03
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November 08, 2013, 10:58:55 PM |
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Volume just means non-prototype. The article I linked to was a month old. There are plenty of similar ones only days old. The number of 20nm designs for the entire year is a couple dozen. Did KNC secure one of those coveted slots I doubt it given the number of industry giants who likely will be excluded from 20nm in 2014. Still your first claim was: KNC also looking to come out with their 16/20nm miner around March 2014. I think we can agree a) KNC said nothing of the such b) March isn't even a possibility for 20nm. c) 2014 isn't even a possibility for 16nm. I put money on 2015 at the earliest you may disagree but at least you admit than any 1620nm in March sometime in 2014 is your assumption not a statement by KNC. The most recent information on KnC and < 28nm is in the 5th paragraph of their latest news update. |
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