NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[bitcoinpaul]

Hey guys this is NiftyNikel

While I would be more than happy to be part of a team with a dev to field questions, I feel that me alone would not be a good idea. While I am technically minded, I am no where near a dev level to be able to articulate the inner workings of the protocol or it's advanced features. Since this is more geared towards the technical side, I say we need to get a dev out there for the panel.

I would be willing to chip in to get a dev there and be on the panel with them, but time is limited and something needs to happen soon. Like others have said, this is an amazing opportunity for Nxt and we should do everything possible to get a dev there.

So guys, 10 minute break of this pay-or-not-pay-stuff.

Let's wangle this! Thoughts, comments, ideas?

Please.

Let's not forget about this folks!

Anyone able to help NiftyNikel out? This is a pretty critical opportunity for the public perception of Nxt. I think it's highly worth a developer taking a break for a day or two... or someone who is generally knowledgeable about Nxt. Maybe even just to identify key topics and write out some point-form notes for Nifty.

Time is running

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[Armando]

"...

It seems to me that the distribution of wealth in a bitcoin economy can be altered much more easily in comparison to a 100% PoS coin economy simply because of the fact that spent coins do not somehow reappear in the wallet of the spender just because he happens to own a lot of coins.

..."

From a discussion in my FB page (I quote the other guy).
What are your thoughts?

Here's my take on it klee, complete with example economies.

That guy has some good thoughts, but he doesn't consider the fact that with PoW, due to economies-of-scale, it will always be easier for the rich to secure an increasingly greater percentage of the profit from mining. For example, the average joe will have to spend top dollar to buy one miner, but someone (or government/corporation) who has a lot of money can either buy them en-mass and receive a huge discount, or manufacture them directly at an even larger discount. This means that the little guy's slice of the PoW pie will get increasingly smaller because it will always cost him more to maintain his hash rate, while the rich who are already making a much higher ROI will always be able to maintain their advantage at a discounted cost.

In PoS the ROI is the same regardless of how much money you have. As a simple example, suppose we have a PoS network of 100 people, and they all have their accounts open for forging 100% of the time. The richest person has 5% of the total wealth, the poorest person has 0.01% of the total wealth, and everyone else has something in between. For simplicity's sake, let's assume this is a closed system and no new wealth enters the economy. Let's also assume the the richest person decides to be a "parasite to society and offer NOTHING back", i.e. he just sits on his 5% and collects fees from forging. Now, the poorest person doesn't have this option, so he decides to be industrious and starts a business that provides him a moderate amount of income that allows him to earn more than his cost of living/doing business. After one year in this economy the poorest person will still have no less than 0.01% of the total wealth thanks to the interest he earned on forging, and will in fact have gained wealth thanks to his successful business. Let's say he now owns 0.02% of the total wealth. Now let's look at the richest person. After one year of doing nothing except collect transaction fees from forging, he still owns no more than 5% of the total wealth thanks to the way PoS forging works. However, he had living expenses, so we must subtract that from his total wealth. Let's say he was wise and didn't exceed the amount that he earned from forging; however, when you subtract his expenses from his forging profits, his net income for the year is obviously less than 5% of all profit earned from forging that year. Since everyone else was also forging 100% of the time, this means he now has LESS than 5% of the total wealth in the system. Suppose this continues unchanged for the next 10 years. Each year the richest person has a little bit less, and each year the poorest person has a little bit more. This is just a little scenario to illustrate that in PoS, while the rich may be able to sustain their lifestyle by doing nothing but forge, their wealth will decrease over time so long as everyone is forging. Forging is a trivial task, so there is no reason why everyone shouldn't be able to forge. Who is rewarded the most in a PoS system? The industrious, just like in every other healthy economy.

Now let's take a look at a simple PoW economy. Again, let's suppose this is a network of 100 people, the richest person has 5% of the wealth and the poorest person has 0.01% of the wealth, and no new wealth enters the system. Lets be optimistic and assume everyone is committed to mining, and they all set aside 10% of their wealth to pay for mining hardware and electricity costs. The poorest person can only afford one of the newest ASIC miners, and since he is only buying one, he pays the full retail price. The richest person realizes that he can save a lot of money by manufacturing his own ASIC miners, and he can even sell some to the other members. So he sets up a nice little ASIC farm of 1000 miners for himself which he was able to finance for much less than full retail, and he pockets the money the poorest person and many of the other members gave him to buy one of his miners. So, at the end of the year, the richest person owns a large percentage of the 10% everyone set aside to pay for their mining costs,  and he was also able finance and operate his miners much more cheaply, giving him a much higher ROI. So the richest person has earned much more than 5% of all mining profits for the year, and the poorest person has earned much less than 0.01% of all mining profits for the year. The poorest person is a pretty industrious guy though, so he has his own business which has enabled him to earn a small profit, and he's doing okay, and he might just be able to justify upgrading to one of the new model of ASICs that the richest person is releasing for next year. His neighbor is not so industrious though, and he is thinking he won't be able to afford a new mining rig next year. Obviously, the richest person in this example is also industrious, because he set up an ASIC manufacturing business, but this is an opportunity that is only afforded to the rich. Lets say his neighbor, who is not quite as rich, and not as industrious, simply bought 800 ASIC miners from him at a 40% discount rate from full retail, and then sat back and did nothing all year except to be a "parasite to society and offer NOTHING back". Well, he is still receiving a MUCH higher ROI than the poorest person who could only afford one miner at full retail.

So, your guy was right in saying "the distribution of wealth in a bitcoin economy can be altered much more easily in comparison to a 100% PoS coin economy". It can be altered much more easily in favor of the rich than a purely PoS economy.

I like PoS MUCH more then PoW without a doubt. Of course it's a good idea to buy ASICs and figurally "print money", but from the other hand, you are investing in hardware and power, doing nothing usefull. With PoS, you can use your investment in coins to generate an extra profit. I realy like this idea.

But, your example is "little" unfair. In first situation, rich guy is "parasite" just spending his money, but in second he is ASICs manufacturer, that is I believe is not the easiest business and I am sure that at least 99% of bitcoin holders would not be able to effectively control such enterprise. So you are compairing, let's say CryptoRockefeller's grandson spending millions on drugs, drinks and girls to a CryptoRockefeller himself)

[salsacz]

Is there a listing of open NXT bounties anywhere?

see my signature - last posts of Nxt Marketing thread or GoogleDoc - NxtMarketing

[salsacz]

Let's not forget about this folks!

Anyone able to help NiftyNikel out? This is a pretty critical opportunity for the public perception of Nxt. I think it's highly worth a developer taking a break for a day or two... or someone who is generally knowledgeable about Nxt. Maybe even just to identify key topics and write out some point-form notes for Nifty.

In the interest of expediency, I think writing out some key aspects would be the most attainable.
It's only one day away.

Let's focus on what we can get done asap instead of pouring energy in getting someone to go and having no one at the end.

Thís can be done more easily and will also help.

Since I don't want to send him a full 50 pages long draft for my NxtMyths book, I will try to make new chapters during the night.

[PeercoinEnthusiast]

Already lining up meetings before the Miami conference for Nxt (and Peer). This is about to get interesting.

[allwelder]

Disclosure: I'm actually homosexual so it makes it ok for me to the use that word in the same way Jews can call each other Jews.

Your disclosure doesn't make it any more okay than the fact that you dropped the word in a negative context, with no personal or cultural context provided until prompted.  You can't do that, any more than I or anyone else can.

I don't mean to derail this thread more than I already have this morning, but I have lines I won't let people cross.  I understand you meant well, but intention and perception are not the same thing and you need to be more careful.

In other news, so I don't feel like I wasted a post to be a complainer: hurray for version 0.5.10; and last night I made a bunch of updates to the draft whitepaper that I hope someone will look at because I'm not terribly confident in my understanding of the source code.  Peek at http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Whitepaper:Nxt

No option for translation to Chinese?

[mercenar1e]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

[Damelon]

I've been playing a game: "Try to make a sentence using all words that would either make the bitcoin thread people throw a fit or just slam their heads into their keyboards in frustration"

So far I have:

"Maybe we need a vote about the fees that should go towards an academic white paper about an open source full feature client"

I'm sure something better could be made.  

[NxtChg]

Ive got an idea for tracking down if this windows based close source vanity program is the source of the theft.  If the user who was stolen from  can pull the installer from his hard drive and send it to me, I can install it and use ethereal (IP Packet sniffer) to see if the program phones home anywhere.

It must be originally pulled from the users HD.  I dont want to DL it from anywhere where it may have been changed.

Obviously I will blow the PC away with a fresh OS load after im done testing

If nobody sends you their versions, I have one from Jan 10. Never used it, it just lays there in an archive.

I looked at it briefly in a hex editor when people reported and didn't notice anything particularly funny, though it seems like it has some network functions, but that might be from OpenSSL.

And you can run it in VM, no need to ruin your PC.

[bithic]

I like PoS MUCH more then PoW without a doubt. Of course it's a good idea to buy ASICs and figurally "print money", but from the other hand, you are investing in hardware and power, doing nothing usefull. With PoS, you can use your investment in coins to generate an extra profit. I realy like this idea.

But, your example is "little" unfair. In first situation, rich guy is "parasite" just spending his money, but in second he is ASICs manufacturer, that is I believe is not the easiest business and I am sure that at least 99% of bitcoin holders would not be able to effectively control such enterprise. So you are compairing, let's say CryptoRockefeller's grandson spending millions on drugs, drinks and girls to a CryptoRockefeller himself)

This is why I also included an example of the richest guy's neighbor, who is a "parasite":

Obviously, the richest person in this example is also industrious, because he set up an ASIC manufacturing business, but this is an opportunity that is only afforded to the rich. Lets say his neighbor, who is not quite as rich, and not as industrious, simply bought 800 ASIC miners from him at a 40% discount rate from full retail, and then sat back and did nothing all year except to be a "parasite to society and offer NOTHING back". Well, he is still receiving a MUCH higher ROI than the poorest person who could only afford one miner at full retail.

[BitAddict]

can someone request http://www.cryptmarketcap.com to add NXT??
I twitted with him/them, he/they said everything was ready but when it as announced ppl start complaining -_-

That website was made in response to delete non mining cryptos because PoW mining mafia was too scary about competition. It is completely normal that now they don't want them to add NXT.

[msin]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

Hi, there will be advanced options where you can lend your Nxt to a forging pool without the Nxt ever having to leave your account.  At this point, don't send your Nxt to any account claiming to be a pool.

[BitAddict]

People crying that with PoS you make little money forging don't realise that your ROI as a particular in PoW mining usually is -50%.

You shoould tell them that the main advantage of PoS forging is that you're guaranteed to not lose anything (also you won't get high profits). Instead in PoW you're guaranteed to being fooled by the ASIC sellers...

I think we should make a list with the ROI you get if you buy PoW rigs to show all the new people how they will lose money.

[mercenar1e]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

Hi, there will be advanced options where you can lend your Nxt to a forging pool without the Nxt ever having to leave your account.  At this point, don't send your Nxt to any account claiming to be a pool.

damn that actually sounds amazing.. does anyone know what the founders typically get per day forging?

[mercenar1e]

People crying that with PoS you make little money forging don't realise that your ROI as a particular in PoW mining usually is -50%.

You shoould tell them that the main advantage of PoS forging is that you're guaranteed to not lose anything (also you won't get high profits). Instead in PoW you're guaranteed to being fooled by the ASIC sellers...

I think we should make a list with the ROI you get if you buy PoW rigs to show all the new people how they will lose money.

Im not crying lol i make more money mining on alt coins per day (on my gfx card) and between the two it is a huge difference

[salsacz]

People crying that with PoS you make little money forging don't realise that your ROI as a particular in PoW mining usually is -50%.

You shoould tell them that the main advantage of PoS forging is that you're guaranteed to not lose anything (also you won't get high profits). Instead in PoW you're guaranteed to being fooled by the ASIC sellers...

I think we should make a list with the ROI you get if you buy PoW rigs to show all the new people how they will lose money.

I will! (tell)

[BitAddict]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

Hi, there will be advanced options where you can lend your Nxt to a forging pool without the Nxt ever having to leave your account.  At this point, don't send your Nxt to any account claiming to be a pool.

damn that actually sounds amazing.. does anyone know what the founders typically get per day forging?

You get about 1NXT/24h per 100,000 NXT. You will realise no one will get rich forging, the main point is securing the network for your own benefit.

[Damelon]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

Hi, there will be advanced options where you can lend your Nxt to a forging pool without the Nxt ever having to leave your account.  At this point, don't send your Nxt to any account claiming to be a pool.

damn that actually sounds amazing.. does anyone know what the founders typically get per day forging?

Probably around 10-100 Nxt max

[msin]

Should i join a forging pool? at my current amount i won't ever get anything lol

Hi, there will be advanced options where you can lend your Nxt to a forging pool without the Nxt ever having to leave your account.  At this point, don't send your Nxt to any account claiming to be a pool.

damn that actually sounds amazing.. does anyone know what the founders typically get per day forging?

A lot of the stake holders don't forge, but it really depends, you can click on some of the top accounts to see what some accounts have forged in total.  Obviously there aren't a ton of transaction fees yet, but that will increase. 

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

[ZeroTheGreat]

You mentioned that PoS is not going to stay with Nxt forever.

What is coming after the Proof of Stake?

I dunno. BCNext once said that at final stage Transparent Forging would become so transparent that we wouldn't even need it.

What do you mean? To sign a block anyone'll need proof of... what? Instead of stake. Equal chances to all forgers? It'll decrease natural PoS-protection — attack'll become cheaper, won't it?

For klee:

From what I've understood the rig doesn't matter. What matters is how many coins you have in your wallet. And unless you have millions I don't think you will be forging much of anything. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1 coin = 1 perfect rig. Almost 0 amortization, we've to keep entropy as low as possible, haven't we?

but how does rewarding the rich for being rich (Proof of stake algorithms) make any sense at all?

That's not about reward. Mining or forging needed for keeping crypto run. Reward is stimulation, forging takes so small effort, so I'd forge even for free, if it would set that way. But balances+txs+fees=0 make sense, so makes sense >0 fee to make both txs'es senders compete and avoid spam. Maybe 1 NXT soon will be too much though.

In POS they just keep generating more out of thin air. That is just ridiculous.

That's incorrect point with Nxt.

It's just not a good way of distributing value.

Do the math. For eye's estimation current distribution of wealth almost the same for bitcoiners and nxters.

Now with POScoin you acquire a 1% position in the coin the first month and basically have to do nothing to maintain that position in the future except not sell.

Valid. It's an equation: at some point big amount of coins hurting you versus potential scenarios. How much? Well, Satoshi's funds doesn't stop Bitcoin from spreading so far, so u can estimate deadly %. Even XRPs are trading, for God sake  

I'm going to have to provide value to other people in society for them to pay me it.

U can't provide value. It's generally relative thing. And PoW just getting oldtech as block's signing system: too much effort, same result.

They won't be rewarded just for owning coins either and that is also a good thing.

Excuse me? They will. If Bitcoin'll get even higher success (as u suggest — to spread the word, for myself I was going to non-profitable-Bitcoin-mining as form of supporting the idea until I read about Nxt), any holder'll become richier.

One huge thing that bitcoin has going for it is that it is already very well established.

"Outcome bias", bro. One of the cognitive ones.

And 2 cents about ROI%:
ROI% of mining PoW-currency (any) can be very high. There's already market of rigs for BTC for example. But it's not a passive income. For profitable in long-term mining u'll need or arms race (CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, ASICs — check, what's next?   ), or coins-to-mine race (BTC, LTC, 5 more, 10 more, 50 more — check), where u've to be with or most powerful rig, and/or to be in best currency to mine at that moment. And we'll get some field of decisions (rig/coin in dynamic) for "+" ROI% of mining.