NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[landomata]

CIYAM, could you give a complete overview where we are right now in the thought process so other smart people can jump in and help?

Okay - well technically I think parallel chains are not going to be very difficult as we *already have one* (it's called "test net") so we are not talking about a huge amount of extra coding that would be required to be performed.

The main thing is going to be to work out what "features" are going to be made available to a parallel chain and what differences in rules (such as say fees) might apply and in particular to get community support for it.

Can't we have specific clients for each chain like we have now with Wesley's webclient for testnet.

Basically you could have NxtINDIA client linked to only NxtINDIA chain.....& NxtCHINA client to NxtCHINA chain. etc.

Maybe NxtINDIA client is for HIGH END SUPERFAST chain & NxtCHINA is for SLOW low end chain.

The CLIENT would be the gateway to specific features.

[verymuchso]

Sure, but I think it's all unnecessary.  Why not just call SecureRandom 12 times to pick 12 random numbers (range  0 to 1625 ). You can use that to choose 12 random words from array. That will be pretty simple and no security/implementation complications.  The words would be chosen randomly and entropy would be 128-bit.

Thats how I did it already. Your approach intrigues me because I don't know how to do that, I dont like that  

[CIYAM]

What else?

It would allow for TF in a country that is blocking or slowing down access to the main chain (also allowing for "local/community currencies" that might appeal to some).

Also it would mean that there is less incentive to clone Nxt (particularly if the motivation for doing that is because of the "initial distribution").

[CIYAM]

Can't we have specific clients for each chain like we have now with Wesley's webclient for testnet.

That could be a good idea - perhaps if we added a few extra APIs that control things like fees then it would make it very simple to "add a blockchain" to a client.

[bitcoinpaul]

Can't we have specific clients for each chain like we have now with Wesley's webclient for testnet.

That could be a good idea - perhaps if we added a few extra APIs that control things like fees then it would make it very simple to "add a blockchain" to a client.

This is a software problem and what's best for the user. Let's skip that for a moment.

[chanc3r]

Did mintpal refund people the money?

Demand your money back if you paid them for listing Nxt

Just for the record. I seem to have got mine back.

[bitcoinpaul]

If we go this route, we can have our global nxt chain with TF. What would be the current implementation of it?

[CIYAM]

If we go this route, we can have our global nxt chain with TF. What would be the current implementation of it?

Indeed I would be strongly advocating that the main chain does TF *with the didn't forge penalty* as planned by BCNext. The goal of the main chain would be to offer a serious competitor to Ripple (and maybe even VISA).

For the case of NXG (assuming that is its name and assuming there is enough support to do this) I would guess there would be no TF at all.

[wesleyh]

What else?

It would allow for TF in a country that is blocking or slowing down access to the main chain (also allowing for "local/community currencies" that might appeal to some).

Also it would mean that there is less incentive to clone Nxt (particularly if the motivation for doing that is because of the "initial distribution").

What is the benefit for the clones to be built on top of Nxt? Instead of standalone?

[Eadeqa]

Sure, but I think it's all unnecessary.  Why not just call SecureRandom 12 times to pick 12 random numbers (range  0 to 1625 ). You can use that to choose 12 random words from array. That will be pretty simple and no security/implementation complications.  The words would be chosen randomly and entropy would be 128-bit.

Thats how I did it already. Your approach intrigues me because I don't know how to do that, I dont like that  

Microsoft patent actually describes  how to represent any number as words (1626)

https://www.google.com/patents/US5892470

In this example, the number is 3,481,269,321. The table of words contains 1626 words, which are indexed from 0 to 1625. To encode this number, the ME system divides the number by the radix, 1626, which yields an integer quotient of 2,141,002 and a remainder of 69 (line 102). The ME system then uses the remainder as an index into the table and retrieves the indexed word, which is "BUS." The system sets the mnemonic encoding to that indexed word. The ME system then divides the integer quotient by the radix, 1626, which yields a new integer quotient of 1316 and a remainder of 1186 (line 103). The ME system then uses the remainder 1186 as an index into the table and retrieves the indexed word, which is "ART." The ME system then adds the word as the left-most word of the mnemonic encoding, which is now "ART BUS." The ME system then divides the integer quotient by the radix 1626, which yields a new integer quotient of 0 and a remainder of 1316 (line 104). The ME system uses the remainder 1316 as an index into the table and retrieves the indexed word, which is "DRUM." The ME system then adds the word "DRUM" as the left-most word of the mnemonic encoding, which is now "DRUM ART BUS." Since the integer quotient is zero, the encoding is complete. To decode the mnemonic encoding of "DRUM ART BUS," the ME system initializes the number that is represented by the mnemonic encoding to zero (line 105). The ME system then removes the left-most word from the encoding, which is "DRUM." The ME system then determines the index for that word in the table. Since the index of that word is 1316, the ME system sets the resultant number to the value 1316 (line 106). The ME system then again removes the left-most word of the current encoding, which is "ART." The ME system then determines the index for that word in the table, which is 1186. The ME system then sets the value of the resultant number to 2,141,002, which is the sum of the index (1186) and of the resultant number (1316) times the radix (1626) (line 107). The ME system then removes the left-most word from the encoding, which is "BUS." The ME system then determines the index of that word in the table, which is 69 (line 108). The ME system then sets the resultant number to 3,481,269,321, which is the sum of the index (69) and of the resultant number (2,141,002) times the radix (1626). Since the encoding is now empty, the current value of the resultant number represents the number for the mnemonic encoding. Each word in the mnemonic encoding corresponds to a radix position in the numbering system. For example, the mnemonic encoding "DRUM ART BUS," which has indices 1316, 1186, and 69, respectively, represents the number that is the result of 1316 * 1626.sup.2 +1186 * 1626.sup.1 +69 * 1626.sup.0.

[CIYAM]

What is the benefit for the clones to be built on top of Nxt? Instead of standalone?

The benefit for "clones" is not needing to hire devs and that we could also make the creation of a "new coin" a very simple procedure.

The benefit for Nxt is to not have a divided community - each group could have their own NXG and the Nxt community as a whole will be stronger.

[ZeroTheGreat]

The entire point of the crypto movement is to code it so you don't come to the crossroads where you need to rely on a person or group of people making a good or bad decision. Figure out the best method to prevent these situations and put it in the core of the protocol. The math and code rules all.

Code don't just appear. So u're constantly relaying on code writers. Plus: on code reviewers and on code installers (1st and 2nd jobs can be done by yourslef, but it's not an option for vas majority of people; 3rd job - system can be crashed without your participation or even with your active counterreacting).

I don't see anything bad in relying on hubs or on gateways. Bad hub? Cancel leasing. Bad gateway? Don't use it, pick another.

[bitcoinpaul]

If we go this route, we can have our global nxt chain with TF. What would be the current implementation of it?

Indeed I would be strongly advocating that the main chain does TF *with the didn't forge penalty* as planned by BCNext. The goal of the main chain would be to offer a serious competitor to Ripple (and maybe even VISA).

For the case of NXG (assuming that is its name and assuming there is enough support to do this) I would guess there would be no TF at all.

1. What about the idea that the main chain only stores snapshots of every parallel chain?
2. The parallel chains can choose to have TF or not?
3. What are the characteristics of those parallel chains that they don't need / want TF? Or other way around: What are the characteristics of TF so that some parallel chains don't want to use it?

[landomata]

Can't we have specific clients for each chain like we have now with Wesley's webclient for testnet.

That could be a good idea - perhaps if we added a few extra APIs that control things like fees then it would make it very simple to "add a blockchain" to a client.

It would be a lot easier to market specific "clients" for specific "functions"....the inner working of the chains themselves don't have to be communicated to the average joe.





 

[CIYAM]

Microsoft patent actually describes  how to represent any number as words (1626)

How fucking ridiculous that they would try and patent something as obvious as that.

It's a bit like IBM's RLE patent (run-length encoding) and one of the reasons why I went open source on a project that otherwise I probably could have made millions from.

[salsacz]

What is the benefit for the clones to be built on top of Nxt? Instead of standalone?

Clones on top of the Nxt would have a one-click installer, so the school-nerd could create a new currency for his class and he could sell shares for his time spent od doing homeworks for others. Or for Casino tokens. Or for Amazon points. Or for Nigeria national currency. Or for Hotels, Festivals, online games...

+ for Nxt is that clones on top of the Nxt would still be using Nxt somehow as payments

[mjrmac]

I Found a bug  in the client 0.8.8 (test)

Code:

{
    "balance": 100097400,
    "effectiveBalance": -100,
    "unconfirmedBalance": 100097400
}

Why the effective balance is :


 "effectiveBalance": -100,

Not a bug, effectiveBalance can be negative.

what does negative effectiveBalance mean?

Are you guys building a support for virtual debt?  

[ZeroTheGreat]

Ok, here's the current NXT distribution as of today.



As you can see, it's pretty horrible. The whales rule almost 85% of the whole coin, and I guess most of them are the initial investors.

Excluding the ~85% of the total NXT the whales have, here's the distribution of the remaining 15%:

Pretty horrible against what? "Fainess"? NEM? We'll see when NEM hits 10k-20k, 100k+ accs. And "fairness" simplycan't be reached, even if u'll magically distribute wealth (in any coin, if so) proportionally to everyone living now. Next seconds: some thousand "poor" people'll be born; next minute: millions'll spend there shares for nothing an so on.

Nothing horrible, IMO. Even nothing bad. It's capitalism.

[CIYAM]

1. What about the idea that the main chain only stores snapshots of every parallel chain?

That could be where this might lead to down the track but I very much doubt that it would be accepted by the community at this stage.

2. The parallel chains can choose to have TF or not?

Yes - I think they would be able to choose that (as internet *within* China is very fast so no need for NXTChina to not be able to do TF).

3. What are the characteristics of those parallel chains that they don't need / want TF? Or other way around: What are the characteristics of TF so that some parallel chains don't want to use it?

Basically TF is useful for handling very large TPM rates and not much else.

[bitcoinpaul]

Basically TF is useful for handling very large TPM rates and not much else.

I thought with TF we also have some security measurement against certain attack attempts.