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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756263 times)
bitcoinpaul
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March 09, 2014, 09:22:42 AM
 #42261

Play nice, kids, we are all on roughly the same side.
+1

Quote

 Get the White Paper and Audit done.
Any new on the ongoing audit?

Quote
Make a simple payment module for the Web. Get merchants on board, sell/buy stuff with NXT as a first gen currency.
Any news on that?

Quote
Think more about marketing. The crypto market is maturing, we need branding to succeed and achieve mass adoption. (I hate to say it....but I think it's true)
+1

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I was going to suggest that we invite one/both of the Cointropolis guys to act as extra members on the Marketing committee.....but that seems to have ended in tears. Pity, I hated SoL, but they did seem to have some really good input otherwise, loved the Star Trek convention currency idea. Is that still happening ?
It is really sad that the decision to leave was based on one statement of another guy. Especially, since not getting elected for the committee (unclaimed coins!) doesn't mean the community doesn't want or need one to work on Nxt. I think this is the biggest fucked up misunderstatement. Think about it for a moment and your head will explode.
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March 09, 2014, 09:24:38 AM
 #42262

are you guys still buying more nxt or just waiting for it to finally go up?

im thinking of buying more but there is no buy support? why? seems like lots of good development
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March 09, 2014, 09:27:09 AM
 #42263

Hi, I really like your idea and wan't to implement that in Offspring (actually already did that with the Eglish list). It seems there are lists of words for most languages http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html available.


thanks, I can't offer suggestions because I don't know programming. There are some online generator that use the diceware dictionary, like this one: https://entima.net/diceware/
The first client who uses such feature, I'll recommend it to all friends and newbies

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March 09, 2014, 09:28:13 AM
 #42264

I imagine a passphrase generator integrated in Nxt clients, similar to the one used in Electrum client for Bitcoin, with state of the art random generator and possibly a larger dictionary (Electrum uses 1600 words).
Passphrases are as strong as random alphanumeric passwords but are much easier to write and to learn by memory.

It could work in 3 steps:




Ok, I want exactly THIS in the NRS Client with wesleys user interface. Maybe an optional encrypted wallet file. Who's with me? Raise your +1s.
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March 09, 2014, 09:31:01 AM
 #42265

Random thought on my previous musings...

Could it be that BCNext original plan plus something as simple as capping 'effectiveBalance' would prevent centralization of pools?

I use 'effectiveBalance' as the amount that may forge, and includes leased plus owned NXT.

For example, set the cap to 1MIL, and you would force minimum of 1,000 pools/supernodes if all NXT were used in forging.

Revisiting an old idea. But yeah, what's up with that?
igmaca
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March 09, 2014, 09:37:31 AM
Last edit: March 09, 2014, 09:52:02 AM by igmaca
 #42266

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

Okay, I'll admit it...  I'm confused.

Why is there a big push to steer away from some of the original goals for Transparent Forging, Instant Transactions, and Leasing Forge Power?

With all tradeoffs being discussed, I see a lot of genius in the original BCNext plan.

Original plan, as I see it:
* Forging power may be leased to pools by discretion of NXT owners.
* NXT owners may transfer their leased forging power at any time to another pool.
* Pools will exist as 'Supernodes', which are better protected from network attacks, and can achieve high transaction rate.
* Thusly, reliable pools can also be better prepared to authorize Instant Transactions.
* An unreliable pool (or any forger, for that matter) will be temporarily penalized (1 day) if it does not include a valid block when required.

Risks:
* Pool centralization

I personally think the pool centralization risk is overstated, and worth the risk if it otherwise means we cannot achieve 90% secure transparent forging and reliable instant transactions.  I would expect NXT businesses to offer pools as well as community-driven efforts, so should be plenty of choice in where to lease forging power of your NXT.

Final thought:
If leasing rewards are distributed equally by the architecture of Nxt core (and NOT individual pool providers), the incentive to choose one solely on returns would be limited (ie: ghash.io).


What other risks or drawbacks might I be missing?



Quote
@ jl777

Quote from: jl777 on March 08, 2014, 01:59:10 PM
Quote
We need high TPS and also support lightweight nodes


This proposal would make sense?
what do you think?



ultra hight TPS = 1000 TPS?
How Tps can drive a raspberry pi node?
if we limit the power of forging 1,000,000 nxt accounts then we have 1,000 nodes maximun and we can do the following with this 1.000 especial nodes;

can distribute the fees if a Raspberry pi node gets forge
can exchange fiat currency
can handle 1000 TPS

one Raspberry pi node to forge must be active.
if a raspberry pi node gets forge shares its fee with other nodes Raspberry Pi grouping. (which are grouped in one of the 1,000 nodes ultra hight TPS)

if blocks are forged 1440 per day means that a Raspberry Pi node with 10 nxt who shares his chance to forge receives fees every day since the probability to forge a grouping of 1,000,000 nxt is approximately 1 day.

therefore

Raspberry Pi node belonging whether to a grouping gets forge the grouping node also forging

the grouping node forges a block ultra hight TPS blok
And the Raspberry Pi node forges a lighter block

what happens if you attack one of the 1,000 nodes?

as the power to forge remains in raspberri pi nodes the network security remains unchanged.
it may happen that momentarily not reached 1,000 TPS

note the criteria to limit the power of forging an account 1,000,000 nxt is due to 1440 blocks are generated in a day and therefore the chance is about one day.

if the number of blocks per day for example increase to 14400 per day the criteria to limit the power of forging change to 100,000 nxt account as tantamount to a chance of about one day.

why one day?
because all accounts that they want to forge if they are always active every day receive fees
keeps the interest in forging and maintain the active node
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March 09, 2014, 09:37:44 AM
 #42267

I've got a lot of catching up to do in this thread, also.  For now, I will say a few things off the top of my head.  

First, we have got to pay more attention to NXT as a 1st generation coin, and call it a coin, without "quotation marks" or apologies.  We need vendors to accept it and people to want it.  NXT cannot be mined and the ability to forge it requires one to buy it on an exchange first.  We have to give people a reason to buy NXT.  That reason cannot be as a stake to forge more NXT because without exception newcomers are dramatically disappointed when they figure out the true numbers that underlie NXT forging. Doge has a fun factor.  NXT has zero fun factor.  It is a frustrating experience all the way thru - getting a client set up and running, dealing with a super long password or losing all your NXT if you don't, realizing you're not going to make anything of true value by forging with small stake quantities, asking yourself what can you do with this coin you just bought....  Repeat:  NXT is frustrating, Doge is fun.  WE MUST LEARN FROM DOGE AND BE FUN.
[...]

Well, NXT as well as bitcoin will have a long way to be accepted by groceries.

However, paying servers, webspace etc. is feasible. I would like to see these serivces accepting NYXT first. From that we can expand. (my 2 cents)
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March 09, 2014, 09:42:33 AM
 #42268

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

This proposal would make sense?
what do you think?




Sorry dude, I have a feeling not many guys read your long hard to understand posts.
bitcoinpaul
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March 09, 2014, 09:43:07 AM
 #42269

I think NXT's best chance of achieving fast transactions is to offload them onto a parallel blockchain which is secured selectively by large stakeholders using high end hardware.

I would like to offer up a suggestion as to how the Nxt project could move forward in a way that can please both those wanting high performance and those wanting forging on low-grade hardware whilst at the same time solving the initial distribution *problem*.

The suggestion is NXG (Nxt Green or Nxt Gen if you prefer) which would be a separate currency to NXT but still based on NxtCore.



So what are the current ideas?

  • Implement TF (which are the different options?) or not?
  • Pool forging or not
  • Parallel Blockchains (with NXT as mainblockchain snapshot function and base currency) for different purposes/countries
  • Parallel Blockchains for different currencies and forging incentives (NXT = high speed, high TPS)

I'm a little overwhelmed. Could somebody help out?
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March 09, 2014, 09:43:47 AM
 #42270

Well, I am back from Texas Bitcoin Conference and it was an extremely interesting experience.

Marketing NXT at TBC was a frustrating experience.   Wed night late I went around and put the NXT brochure out on literally 1600 chairs in preparation for the next day.  At noon on Thurs I went around and picked up the unused ones.  We probably only had 100 or so that were kept.  Of course the conference only had around 600 people, far less than expected.  I have made arrangements to ship the rest out to NxtMinnow for San Francisco.  

The exhibitor area was kind of a joke.   Very few tables, very few people went through it.  I was wrong to push for a separate NXT table earlier, it would have been a waste.    

I was on the cryptocoin panel discussion which I think went very well.  The video will be out in a few days and I'll post a link.  There were maybe 30 guys in the audience and on a show of hands probably only 5 had even heard of NXT.

I made a lot of good contacts, including a writer for Bitcoin Magazine with whom I had a very long talk about NXT.  He is going to write an article on us.  This is probably the number one positive thing for NXT that has come out of the conference.

The interest in Etherium in the Bitcoin community is extremely strong.  This is a trend to watch.

People want to hear confident leaders on a stage.  People want to hear confident leaders  on a stage.  People want to hear confident leaders  on a stage. 

The thing that has surprised me most, the biggest insight of all, is how few people care about the technical side of Bitcoin.  Over 95% of the people there view Bitcoin as a social/political phenomenon and wouldn't care if it were powered under the hood by three witches cackling around cauldron of witches' brew.  Talking about the advantages of transparent forging over competitive mining or PoW vs. PoS or trusted gateways or pretty much anything we discuss in this forum is totally irrelevant to them and actually to the future of NXT.

We will only get the attention of the mass community of Bitcoiners if we come up with a marketing theme / campaign that engages people to adopt NXT.  The will not adopt NXT because it is better or technically superior.  They will only adopt NXT if it meets a need of theirs that Bitcoin does not already currently meet.  

This is why Doge is so popular and is even surpassing Bitcoin in many ways.  Doge meets a social need to feel connected to something warm and fuzzy that Bitcoin does not.

I am at a loss to figure out how NXT can pull off a similar viral meme feat.  But we need to figure that out, fast.



If and when NXT launches its decentralized exchange and when that exchange actually allows people to trade crypto back and forth for next to free, THEN NXT will get a lot of attention. That couple with a large marketing campaign in China would draw a lot of interest. Momentum feeds momentum in this industry.

Ethereum has excitement now because its new. That's the only reason why. No one really understands it. What NXT needs is utility, an exchange where people can freely trade peer to peer. If we get that it could be a game changer.  People are interested in what they can use, not in theories.

Once Etherium launches it will be in the same boat as NXT now. It will eventually have to have utility.

Look at Namecoin. It's all theoretical. And thus it is stagnant.
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March 09, 2014, 09:50:39 AM
 #42271


If and when NXT launches its decentralized exchange and when that exchange actually allows people to trade crypto back and forth for next to free, THEN NXT will get a lot of attention. That couple with a large marketing campaign in China would draw a lot of interest. Momentum feeds momentum in this industry.

Ethereum has excitement now because its new. That's the only reason why. No one really understands it. What NXT needs is utility, an exchange where people can freely trade peer to peer. If we get that it could be a game changer.  People are interested in what they can use, not in theories.

Once Etherium launches it will be in the same boat as NXT now. It will eventually have to have utility.

Look at Namecoin. It's all theoretical. And thus it is stagnant.

+1

Edit: Things don't always go according to rosy plans...we all saw what happened to Etherium's IPO.


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March 09, 2014, 09:51:25 AM
 #42272

I imagine a passphrase generator integrated in Nxt clients, similar to the one used in Electrum client for Bitcoin, with state of the art random generator and possibly a larger dictionary (Electrum uses 1600 words).
Passphrases are as strong as random alphanumeric passwords but are much easier to write and to learn by memory.

It could work in 3 steps:




Ok, I want exactly THIS in the NRS Client with wesleys user interface. Maybe an optional encrypted wallet file. Who's with me? Raise your +1s.


Will do (diceware first).
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March 09, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
 #42273


Did mintpal refund people the money?

Demand your money back if you paid them for listing Nxt

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March 09, 2014, 09:54:28 AM
 #42274

I imagine a passphrase generator integrated in Nxt clients, similar to the one used in Electrum client for Bitcoin, with state of the art random generator and possibly a larger dictionary (Electrum uses 1600 words).

Hi, I really like your idea and wan't to implement that in Offspring (actually already did that with the Eglish list). It seems there are lists of words for most languages http://world.std.com/~reinhold/diceware.html available.

I would like some input on the algorithm to combine the words and if and how to generate entropy with the mouse. It does for sure look really interesting to the average user (moving your mouse around to generate a password) but does it make a difference in the case of Curve25519 between doing that and using SecureRandom?

Also great care is put into correctly providing a seed to the PRNG in SecureRandom and you are warned against providing your own seed (which is basically what you do when you move your mouse around and call SecureRendom.setSeed([MOUSE MOVEMENT ENTROPY]) ), so what is more secure? Default (and optimized) SecureRandom or SecureRandom with mouse movement as seed?

Code:
DiceWords words = new DiceWords();
SecureRandom rand = SecureRandom.getInstance("SHA1PRNG", "SUN");
   
byte[] bytes = new byte[8];
rand.nextBytes(bytes); // initialize seed
   
StringBuilder sb = new StringBuilder();
for (int i = 0; i < 12; i++) {
  String word = words.getDiceWd(rand.nextInt());
  sb.append(word).append(' ');
}
sb.deleteCharAt(sb.length() - 1);
String passphrase = sb.toString();

Edit: changed the algorithm to explicitly use SHA1PRNG instead of the platform default, call to nextBytes is to force PRNG to seed itself securely

What does your implementation of words.getDiceWd look like?
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March 09, 2014, 09:54:50 AM
 #42275


Will do (diceware first).

Why bother with diceware? Pick easy word dictionary so it's easy to remember and type. Use Electrum dictionary

https://raw.github.com/spesmilo/electrum/master/lib/mnemonic.py

By the way, you don't need more than 1626 words to get 128-bit entropy with 12 words, so words should be short and easy to type and remember

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March 09, 2014, 09:57:21 AM
 #42276

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

This proposal would make sense?
what do you think?




Sorry dude, I have a feeling not many guys read your long hard to understand posts.

I'm thwarted at not being able to provide possible solutions  Undecided
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March 09, 2014, 10:00:28 AM
 #42277

What does your implementation of words.getDiceWd look like?

It picks directly from an array of words. Why?


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March 09, 2014, 10:02:09 AM
 #42278

  • Implement TF (which are the different options?) or not?
  • Pool forging or not
  • Parallel Blockchains (with NXT as mainblockchain snapshot function and base currency) for different purposes/countries
  • Parallel Blockchains for different currencies and forging incentives (NXT = high speed, high TPS)

I'm a little overwhelmed. Could somebody help out?

It is a lot to take in and what I am proposing is a way to try and "satisfy everyone" which of course will never actually work (but if we can "satisfy most" then that would be a big improvement).

The parallel blockchains is an idea that I think can help us toward our seemingly schizophrenic goals (to be both a Raspberry Pi friendly "eco-coin" and a "blistering TPM monster") as well as help TF in places where internet to the "outside" is at times blocked or generally slowed down.

It also makes sense that if we decided to launch a parallel blockchain for a non-TF coin then we could also address the issue of "initial distribution" that seems to bug a lot of people (and has led to various clones).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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March 09, 2014, 10:03:02 AM
 #42279

Alright guys. Ready to test. I have no Idea how an Asset Exchange should work so if I can manage to trade there we are good  Tongue

Please send some; 13446574264376578657

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March 09, 2014, 10:06:42 AM
 #42280

Quote

I'd just like to make a statement about the "initial distribution problem" if I may.

The initial stakeholders don't owe anyone here a goddamn thing. They took the huge risk by buying in early while everyone else called NXT a scam coin. They are under NO obligation to re-distribute the wealth to all those, including me, who missed out because of cynicism or ignorance or whatever. If NXT becomes a huge success, they and they alone deserve to be hugely rewarded for taking that risk. they have every right as free citizens of planet earth to do damn well whatever they please with their windfall.

That being said, if these stakeholders hope to see their investment mature to the point where they'll be able to perhaps buy a trip on Branson's Spaceship one day, they should invest in the future health of NXT in whatever way they see fit based on their own rational self interest.

There's no shortage of affordable NXT on the market. If you want some it's ripe for the picking on an exchange at mere pennies apiece. It's not too late to possibly book your own seat on a future Virgin voyage by simply not making the same mistake twice, taking a risk and buying some NXT. Then and only then will it will be your turn to decide how to invest your hard won investment in a way that you feel will make NXT grow even more.

I'm not a libertarian personally, but I really can't think of anything more free market than the way NXT has unfolded. I have no problem with the original folks being HUGELY rewarded because if they do then I'll be doing pretty good myself. It surprises me to see so many people in this community asking for socialism and redistribution of the wealth.

I am not saying that they should give out charity to all of us, I am saying that they should invest into product that they are also holding and holding by far the most comparing to all of us here. I mean this is a common sense. People that won't do that are by definition selfish, they don't want to part ways with one cent of their money and they don't want to contribute anything to the community by working here with us.
Sorry, but to me all of this makes no sense!
For example, Klee is definitely not one of those people!!
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