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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756319 times)
Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 06:42:41 PM
 #42061

I would be a lot of money that if crypto goes mainstream, mixers will be made illegal. I base this on imagining what would happen if I started a FIAT mixing service. I'd find myself on a fast train to federal pound me in the ass prison. It's money laundering 101.

I do not believe anonymity should be built into any protocol because of this. It should be a layer on top that can be removed or altered for compliance, leaving the network intact.

I don't believe complete anonymity is necessary for crypto. In fact it's the best way to get it banned completely. As long as average users could only be tracked through heavy forensics by authorized officials examining bank records and following a trail, I think crypto provides plenty enough anonymity.

Law enforcement do need certain tools for tracking terrorists and criminals. There needs to be sensible laws put in place for all of this.

You mind telling me how they will ban it?

And if they did 'ban' Nxt because of mixing, how would that be a bad thing? Probably be great publicity...

They could ban it from being accepted for trade, Both for exchanged fiat and for products or services. If You can't exchange it, it becomes worthless. Brian is right, in my opinion. There is going to have to be a level in the community that operates in full view. This will be a needed mode of business, not just for legal reasons. It will help to make people more trusting in using cryptos if there are options for conducting transactions that don't put off the shady vibe of a craigslist transaction.

It's going to come down to what people want more. Do they want a currency that is going to comply with a bunch of regulations, or do they want a currency that is going to provide stuff like anonymity and other free market tools. I don't know exactly what's going to happen as far as regulations go, because it seems like it will be impossible with all the different arbitrary laws all over the world. I think cryptos in general are going to open up a HUGE can of worms for the entire world. I'm excited about it.

I think you are right. And I think that there is going to be no way to avoid regulation. There are going to have to be levels of the crypto community that will be forced to operate in plain view. There is no way that government is not going to do there damdest to get there share. But there will still be levels of anonymity. Regulations will be more focused toward business. They will find a way to tax what tax.
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March 08, 2014, 06:43:58 PM
 #42062

Any online nodes have enabled APICors? (for ajax cross domain)
Voluntold
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March 08, 2014, 06:50:43 PM
 #42063


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

Nxt:  NXT-5BHG-9VRE-QGW6-DRZVQ
igmaca
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March 08, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 11:14:42 PM by igmaca
 #42064

Only TL;DR version, coz noone would read a full one.

@ jl777

We need high TPS and also support lightweight nodes

perhaps are absurd ideas but I throw these


ultra hight TPS = 1000 TPS?
How Tps can drive a raspberry pi node?
if we limit the power of forging 1,000,000 nxt accounts then we have 1,000 nodes maximun and we can do the following with this 1.000 especial nodes;

can distribute the fees if a Raspberry pi node gets forge
can exchange fiat currency
can handle 1000 TPS

one Raspberry pi node to forge must be active.
if a raspberry pi node gets forge shares its fee with other nodes Raspberry Pi grouping. (which are grouped in one of the 1,000 nodes ultra hight TPS)

if blocks are forged 1440 per day means that a Raspberry Pi node with 10 nxt who shares his chance to forge receives fees every day since the probability to forge a grouping of 1,000,000 nxt is approximately 1 day.

therefore

Raspberry Pi node belonging whether to a grouping gets forge the grouping node also forging

the grouping node forges a block ultra hight TPS blok
And the Raspberry Pi node forges a lighter block

what happens if you attack one of the 1,000 nodes?

as the power to forge remains in raspberri pi nodes the network security remains unchanged.
it may happen that momentarily not reached 1,000 TPS

note the criteria to limit the power of forging an account 1,000,000 nxt is due to 1440 blocks are generated in a day and therefore the chance is about one day.

if the number of blocks per day for example increase to 14400 per day the criteria to limit the power of forging change to 100,000 nxt account as tantamount to a chance of about one day.

why one day?
because all accounts that they want to forge if they are always active every day receive fees
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March 08, 2014, 06:56:14 PM
 #42065


IMHO I think mixing stands a high chance of being made illegal in the future. Tread with caution.

I struggle to see how they would be able to define a "mixer". If they outlaw a certain type, just make another slightly modified one.
They would have to downright outlaw anonymity then...

Law is very much the art of defining things and it is done with near mathematical precision using language. There's no reason in the world that legislation couldn't be crafted defining what mixing is and then declaring it as an illegal activity in the interest of national security.

In the future there will probably be whole departments dedicated to this sort of thing. I believe it's important to play life like chess and look six or so steps ahead so an unforseen knight or Bishop doesn't come along and fuck you up the ass.

I am a pragmatist. I try to separate what I want to happen from what I believe is going to happen.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 06:57:06 PM
 #42066

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.

This is why the military stratifies into organized groups: a single soldier is assigned a duty or task within a team, at team is assigned a duty or task within a platoon, a platoon is assigned a duty or task within a company, ETC...

If coordinated and disciplined, a large group will have a weakness in mobilization time compared to an individual, but carry a lot more momentum and capacity to do work. And It is possible and KEY in large group settings to still maintain a  sense of individualism by tasking and setting expectations for individuals and clearly defining these tasks and expectations.

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March 08, 2014, 06:59:08 PM
 #42067

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.

This is why the military stratifies into organized groups: a single soldier is assigned a duty or task within a team, at team is assigned a duty or task within a platoon, a platoon is assigned a duty or task within a company, ETC...

If coordinated and disciplined, a large group will have a weakness in mobilization time compared to an individual, but carry a lot more momentum and capacity to do work. And It is possible and KEY in large group settings to still maintain a  sense of individualism by tasking and setting expectations for individuals and clearly defining these tasks and expectations.



Ego is the enemy of order. Organization is the remedy. -Brian Nowhere

NXT: 4957831430947123625
rriky92
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March 08, 2014, 07:03:39 PM
 #42068

New iNxt version 1.0.8 in AppStore

Changelog:
New exchange:Cryptsy, Poloniex
Now exchange are sorted for Volume (03/03/14)
App now uses POST instead of GET (more secure)
New API to know if account is forging
Bug fix


Download link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/inxt/id802351888?l=it&ls=1&mt=8


Donations:
4894174904569783391
BrianNowhere
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March 08, 2014, 07:07:12 PM
 #42069

So it is about TPS (or TPM).

Some random thoughts:
Should we aim high and make TPS one of the big distinction form other crypto currencies? Are we realistic with such a high TPS - do we really need it? It could be a VISA alternative. Do we get there? Maybe only if great things are made on top of Nxt the next months. Will there be great things on top of Nxt if we are called the next ripple, which is mostly a negative conjunction in the crypto world? Do we ever get there when we cannot market the super-decentralized-idea, raspberryPis and nice things? Are we the business solution of crypto currencies? Do businesses need cryptos? The business world is still very hesitated in regards to crypto currencies - if we fail in the business world in the next month and decided today to go this route, Nxt would be dead? How realistic is it to establish Nxt big in the business world? Are there other possibilities with ultra hight TPS, if not business related? Can we aim for both worlds? Maybe 200 TPS? (Could parallel blockchains help?) Can we aim high with all the other stuff without hight TPS?

How important is ultra hight TPS? What are your opinions? What did I forgot?

I want a big discussion about this.

The system that provides the fastest transactions securely will surpass Bitcoin as the number once currency. TF and high TPS is the #1 reason for the recent surge in interest in NXT in my opinion. In fact many people think it's already implemented and are out there talking around 'the water cooler' about this. The other factor will be easy FIAT conversion, which means being somewhat friendly to the banking system. Ease of use for regular people is also very very important. Ripple is beating NXT already in all of these areas. So to beat ripple and the others NXT needs to win on these fronts AND be more decentralized and free-standing.

The real question is if the goal is for NXT to be the currency that takes Bitcoin's place, or if it's happy as a 2nd or 3rd tier system that co-exists with other Alt currencies and becomes known as merely a decentralized platform to trade your fake money for different fake money that no one wants or needs or can use except for speculation. Once the current coin boom ends there will probably be a few cryptos that survive and interest in exchanges will die down. People may exchange real world assets with the AE but it's really hard to get people to change old habits. And unless AE gets accepted by the banking system AND the government, centralized exchanges will still be needed for FIAT conversion. The one way around that problem is to be so awesome as a form of currency that easy conversion to FIAT is not needed. That means popular usage amongst buyers, suppliers and consumers. Then everyone can HODL their NXT and not worry about converting. Volatility/Stability is also an issue here, where BTC is obviously lacking.

There's a VERY limited amount of people who dream about issuing their own currency or starting an IPO or even investing in one, but EVERYBODY needs to spend money and EVERYBODY would consider using an alternative that works easier and better than credit and debit cards and also protects against identity theft. EVERYONE also needs a way to perform fast, secure MICRO-TRANSACTIONS on the internet. Being able to quickly send .25 can potentially solve music and movie piracy, revive the online newspapers and allow people to monetize internet content.

Once these important fronts are won, then people might start looking more closely at the other features, such as AE, Aliasing, etc. But if no one is using NXT for the everyday stuff, no one may discover them or they will discover them on another platform like Ripple, Ethereum, EMunie etc. It's a very darwinian thing going on right now. The fittest will survive.

My two cents, or should I say .5 NXT


I don't know. It depends on why people want a fast transaction. If the sole reason is for point of purchase sales slow transaction speed of the network could potentially be overcome be other means. I think that the overall structure of NXT allows for more responsiveness and flexibility of use, and that fact will allow for people to identify more innovative ways to solve problems. NXT has more uses than Bitcoin does. This is what we have to make people aware of. This is the strength of NXT, and should be the focal selling point.

Ripple (which puts these selling points first as well) has been around longer than Bitcoin or at least nearly as long I believe. Which one is getting more attention? It's the one that is known for it's potential to revolutionize remittance and payments. It's the sexiest feature and I believe it is downplayed at our peril.


I agree that it is an attractive feature, but I think that there may be other ways for NXT users to accomplish instant point of purchase transactions without the network being able to accomplish instant transactions. Unless there is another reason for needing the network to have these types of transaction speeds, Point of purchase transaction speed could possibly be accomplished by other means.

For example, prepaid credit cards. If it were possible to load a prepaid credit card from a NXT account and use the card at point of purchase, there would be the one loading transaction that may take a while, but he point of purchase transactions would be like credit card transactions.

If point of purchase is the only reason for needing high speed transactions, there may be more efficient solutions than trying to speed up network transactions.

It really boils down to who the target is when it comes to marketing. The Ripple approach is more geared toward the individual user; which can be an expensive and time consuming approach. By taking the approach of marketing to businesses (like credit card/ ach providers) it gives the business some of the workload in spreading the usage of their product. Some may argue that this marketing strategy is contrary to decentralization, But businesses would have the same desire for a decentralized platform to engage in business as individuals do.

Bitcoin also has a solution to the slow transition speeds which is off chain processing ie: Centralization and trust. If Bitcoin and NXT use similar approaches to solving this problem then NXT loses an important advantage.

I'm not sure if "loading" pre-paid credit cards are possible except for being a cosmetics/perception sort of thing. It's still just a public key and a private key and needs to be confirmed via the block-chain.

I am very much hoping for the target to be everyone, everywhere. IMHO the best way to attract new customers is with the stuff that's easiest to understand and that is useful in everyday life for everyday people. "Come for the instant transactions, stay for the AE."

NXT: 4957831430947123625
Emule
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March 08, 2014, 07:09:09 PM
 #42070

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.


I shall tell you what is wrong in this community!

If you pay one person 40,000 NXT /month for stealing more nxt and sit on his ass whole day typing crap that get us nowhere, and hard working members getting nothing

what do you think other members will do? Right nothing than waiting to sell out and leave nxt behind


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March 08, 2014, 07:10:20 PM
 #42071

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

Man I just typed out a huge response as to why this doesn't make any sense and in so doing realized why it makes sense. That is brilliant. Yes it makes perfect sense. Though you dont need a 24 hour limitation. You only need to time limit it to as many blocks as we expect a merchant to need in order to feel secure. 6 maybe 10. 24 hour time lock would allow you to do thinks like buy your own private island with an instantly secure transaction but there is a tradeoff there. is it really worth locking people out of spending their funds for a full 24 hours just so a couple of guys who do HUGE transactions can feel instantly secure. Or is the better trade off to not let people make instantly secure HUGE transactions but also not have to have their nxt locked away for so long.

*edit* note that its still vulnerable against an attempted quintuple spend attack Cheesy.

I agree, its a great idea to hold NXT for instant transactions, I just put a response in the linked thread to see why it can't be done using a reserve balance on the normal account otherwise we have further complexity for the user.

also note that transparent forging would have to be proven first before this could be proven to be 100% secure.

I do not think both relate to much to each other. Instant transactions rely on the network distributing unconfirmed transactions faster than the merchant selling.

There is still no such thing as TF. The current implementation of consensus finding is susceptible to 33% attacks.
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March 08, 2014, 07:11:52 PM
 #42072


And you might not want to insult the libertarian community too much. They're a bigger part of crypto community than you probably realize.

Why, what's going to happen to me? Are you going to beat me up? I'm not a libertarian and I have a right to my opinion.
I'm not running for class president.

My age: 46, I own my own business and don't have to commute to and from work.

I'm not a libertarian either. I'm just saying you shouldn't insult people. You said you were a cool guy. You sure haven't been acting like it in any of your responses...

I am pragmatic. I see clearly that ideology and finance need to be separated because finance is math and ideology is opinion.
I am not insulting anyone, only imploring people to not let ideology cloud judgement. I'd say the same sorts of things to a liberal or a communist who tried to inject theirs into this technology.

Cool people are confident enough in themselves not to need validation from others, so your opinion on my coolness is very much irrelevant. You don't know me at all and you never will.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
Jerical13
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March 08, 2014, 07:12:41 PM
 #42073


FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

James is a machine Grin

looking forward to first delivery of that machine Grin

bla bla bla
https://github.com/jl777/multigateway

and what exactly do i buy with this multigateway what is its purpose, and its centralized

apperently this is of no value for nxt as price is declined even more. actualy i can do nothing with your code.

Actually, from what I understand about it, the code and what it does is pretty smart. It does have several uses and can be implemented in decentralized ways.

Go back to sleep Emule.
Passion_ltc
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March 08, 2014, 07:15:53 PM
 #42074

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.


I shall tell you what is wrong in this community!

If you pay one person 40,000 NXT /month for stealing more nxt and sit on his ass whole day typing crap that get us nowhere, and hard working members getting nothing

what do you think other members will do? Right nothing than waiting to sell out and leave nxt behind



Who gets 40k NXT per month? Cheesy

chanc3r
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March 08, 2014, 07:16:01 PM
 #42075


IMHO I think mixing stands a high chance of being made illegal in the future. Tread with caution.

I struggle to see how they would be able to define a "mixer". If they outlaw a certain type, just make another slighty modified one.
They would have to downright outlaw anonymity then...

I agree... if I pay in cash... no one Id's me..

Mixed transactions will 'stop' some parties transacting through the mixers e.g. businesses because of the legislation applies to them.

Governments might come after the 'mixer' because of the use it is put to - they don't like ToR for example.

Is a mixer 'illegal' - it is if YOU use it for a transaction that it is illegal for YOU to perform in this way e.g. where you must by law have full KYC of the buyer or seller.

Is the mixer a problem where the law doesn't proscribe the buyer and seller are fully identified... No
Is the mixer at fault because its used for illegal transactions - if you knowingly aid criminal activity using the mixer - Yes
If the mixer is simply used to protect an individuals privacy on a public block chain - I don't know - I would argue 'Not'

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March 08, 2014, 07:16:23 PM
 #42076

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

I think we will need instant transaction in future
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March 08, 2014, 07:18:49 PM
 #42077

Hello, I think I is necessary a new API getDeadline(Account) to be used instead of doing all the time "getForging(secretPhrase)".
Is not good to be all the time sending the secretPhrase, just to get the deadline.

Nearly no difference between getForging(secretPhrase) and startForging(secretPhrase), both are "secretPhrase" not safe.

Code:
public final class StartForging extends APIServlet.APIRequestHandler {

    static final StartForging instance = new StartForging();

    private StartForging() {}

    @Override
    JSONStreamAware processRequest(HttpServletRequest req) {

        String secretPhrase = req.getParameter("secretPhrase");
        if (secretPhrase == null) {
            return MISSING_SECRET_PHRASE;
        }

        Generator generator = Generator.startForging(secretPhrase);
        if (generator == null) {
            return UNKNOWN_ACCOUNT;
        }

        JSONObject response = new JSONObject();
        response.put("deadline", generator.getDeadline());
        return response;

    }

    @Override
    boolean requirePost() {
        return true;
    }

}

Code:
public final class GetForging extends APIServlet.APIRequestHandler {

    static final GetForging instance = new GetForging();

    private GetForging() {}

    @Override
    JSONStreamAware processRequest(HttpServletRequest req) {

        String secretPhrase = req.getParameter("secretPhrase");
        if (secretPhrase == null) {
            return MISSING_SECRET_PHRASE;
        }
        Account account = Account.getAccount(Crypto.getPublicKey(secretPhrase));
        if (account == null) {
            return UNKNOWN_ACCOUNT;
        }

        Generator generator = Generator.getGenerator(secretPhrase);
        if (generator == null) {
            return NOT_FORGING;
        }

        JSONObject response = new JSONObject();
        response.put("deadline", generator.getDeadline());
        return response;

    }

    @Override
    boolean requirePost() {
        return true;
    }

}

They could do something more simple? Smiley
or is the only way?


I have not reviewed java code but if we can t send passphrase each time that would be great
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March 08, 2014, 07:21:07 PM
 #42078

Guys, review this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316104.0 - plz. I don't want to implement it and then see that the idea is flawed. Would be great if u did it ASAP.

sorry - over my head ..


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March 08, 2014, 07:22:25 PM
 #42079

Found an interesting link. Nxt community became a victim of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringelmann_effect, IMHO.

This is why the military stratifies into organized groups: a single soldier is assigned a duty or task within a team, at team is assigned a duty or task within a platoon, a platoon is assigned a duty or task within a company, ETC...

If coordinated and disciplined, a large group will have a weakness in mobilization time compared to an individual, but carry a lot more momentum and capacity to do work. And It is possible and KEY in large group settings to still maintain a  sense of individualism by tasking and setting expectations for individuals and clearly defining these tasks and expectations.



Ego is the enemy of order. Organization is the remedy. -Brian Nowhere

Ego is a tool that can be used to some effect, depending on the ego. Some people just have difficult egos.
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March 08, 2014, 07:24:11 PM
 #42080


IMHO I think mixing stands a high chance of being made illegal in the future. Tread with caution.

I struggle to see how they would be able to define a "mixer". If they outlaw a certain type, just make another slighty modified one.
They would have to downright outlaw anonymity then...

I agree... if I pay in cash... no one Id's me..


This is largely true, but I am applying how cash is legislated (at least here in the U.S) to crypto and I'm pretty certain that setting up a USD mixing service would be stopped immediately and the proprietors would possibly be prosecuted for violating money laundering laws.

No one is going to care about small transactions. But if there's a way to make large amounts of money untraceable (which is also very very difficult to do with cash as well) using crypto-currency then I can guarantee that powerful forces will put a stop to it or at least make it a very dark and dangerous activity to engage in. I'm not risking my freedom so I can buy a beer with my cell phone.

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