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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755952 times)
BrianNowhere
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March 18, 2014, 04:00:14 PM
 #45721



Allowing the issuance of assets with the same name will most probably hinder us to sell our assets on the Nxt AE as we don´t want to have anyone creating assets with the same name as ours. We will work hard to get our shit together and to convince the community that our shares are worth buying, but if anyone can come and issue assets with the same name, we will most probably not use Nxt as scamming would harm our reputation, too.


EDIT: I am talking about a real life project we would like to fund using Nxt.


if we have a verification system there should be no issue, right? (with non unique names)

Well, I thin kthat the average user will go after the name...
I see some discussions between friends:
"I bought ABC shares on Nxt"
"Really? Cool! I will also buy one when I get home."
"But take care as there are hundreds of shares with the same name..."

This IS confusing..isn´t it?
Anyway, looking forward to the decision of the wise counsel.

Is it?

On many places where stuff is exchanged there are multiple items with the same name, but issued by different users.
As long as it is distinguishable that both items are issued by different users, there is no problem.

Non-unique names should not be a problem as long as it clear they are from different users.



To use ripple as an example once again they have Bitstamp BTC, Peercover BTC etc. Don't see why that's an issue. It provides arbitrage opportunities and allows buyers to shop around for the best price on the exchange.

However, XRP has an infinitesimal transaction fee, which allows these centralized exchanges to set their own fees. In Nxt, if any similar exchanges wanted to use Nxt in this way, traders would either have to pay both Nxt's fee and the Exchanges fee. Therefore Nxt has pretty much eliminated the motivation for centralized exchanges to use Nxt at all. Unlike XRP, NXt comes preloaded with lots of friction.

We're basically left with individuals selling "shares" in their companies. I'm starting to envision a future where the Nxt platform looks like bitcointalks' alternative currency section. Lots of noise, confusion and scam artists hawking digital penny stocks.



So are you refusing to acknowledge that the fee can be changed as the situation dictates?

Or that you want us to match ripples fee right now?


Sometimes I don't see the benefit of some posts in moving things forward.

I don't want to base a decision to use a platform on some arbitrary decision that may or may not happen in the future. I have no faith in the decentralized developers to make this decision correctly in the future. I want to know now what would happen in the future before I decide to waste any more time believing in this product's potential.

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March 18, 2014, 04:02:24 PM
 #45722

However, XRP has an infinitesimal transaction fee, which allows these centralized exchanges to set their own fees. In Nxt, if any similar exchanges wanted to use Nxt in this way, traders would either have to pay both Nxt's fee and the Exchanges fee. Therefore Nxt has pretty much eliminated the motivation for centralized exchanges to use Nxt at all. Unlike XRP, NXt comes preloaded with lots of friction.

You are going way too long again and again on tx fees. This is not an issue. TX fee will be changed to 0.1  and they can be lowered even more if nxt prices go up.

This is not an issue.

TX fees exists to prevent spam and flooding.



In my opinion .1 fee is way too much for spam protection. basing it on transaction size makes way more sense. The competition is going to eat Nxt's lunch.

You are not bringing any new info. As I told you it was already agreed that 1 nxt fee is too  high 1 month ago when reddit tipping bot was developed.. There was consensus to drop it to 0.1 Nxt, but it requires some work in the core. This is already being done. This is an old topic. What else do you want?


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March 18, 2014, 04:02:39 PM
 #45723

The FUD is deep in here right now.
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March 18, 2014, 04:03:03 PM
 #45724


I don't want to base a decision to use a platform on some arbitrary decision that may or may not happen in the future. I have no faith in the decentralized developers to make this decision correctly in the future. I want to know now what would happen in the future before I decide to waste any more time believing in this product's potential.

Then you must also have to believe that the Devs are immune to/don't understand the effects of market forces.

Do you honestly think the fee won't change if it costs $620,000 to issue an asset (to use your example)?

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March 18, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
 #45725

First of all, it's nice to see the trolls have gone to bed, please ignore them when they post, it's hard to read this thread as is.  

I don't think it's a good idea to change the issuance of Assets whatsoever.  If someone wants to register BTC and squat on it, then so be it.  We can't police someone registering CIYAM who isn't CIYAM.  I assume we will have a registration process similar to Alias, where the highest bidder will get the Asset name when the block is forged.  This will help prevent spam Assets as well.

I do think it's a good idea (as James suggested) to have a reputation system, voting +/-, and perhaps linking Alias name with Asset to verify within Wesleyh client.  We need freedom to register Assets and I don't like the idea of someone telling me when I can trade my asset or what name I can use.  I don't think it's a big deal to have BTC or 1BTC or zBtc as the standard for Bitcoin in Nxt AE.  I don't imagine anyone will be buying Assets for Crypto other than through James' DAC.  Buyers need to beware and Wesleyh can put in a warning screen for people who click on Asset Tab "Please verify Asset owner before buying ANY Asset in exchange"

We still need a couple Java guys to help CIYAM with AT code port and Parallel Blockchain, this should be a priority!  Please register at http://ciyam.org/open and help him.
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March 18, 2014, 04:04:37 PM
 #45726


I don't want to base a decision to use a platform on some arbitrary decision that may or may not happen in the future. I have no faith in the decentralized developers to make this decision correctly in the future. I want to know now what would happen in the future before I decide to waste any more time believing in this product's potential.

The network is decentralized, but the core software development isn't. The lead developer is Jean Luk.  There is nothing decentralized about the core software development.

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March 18, 2014, 04:11:46 PM
 #45727


The network is decentralized, but the core software development isn't. The lead developer is Jean Luk.  There is nothing decentralized about the core software development.

And if Jean-luc gets hit by a bus? (Buddha Cosmos forbid)

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March 18, 2014, 04:15:04 PM
 #45728

Someone would have to learn Java! Cosmos forbid! Or we clone the whole system and move.

BrianNowhere, please put together a proposal to help Nxt find Java coders and submit it to the appropriate committee.


The network is decentralized, but the core software development isn't. The lead developer is Jean Luk.  There is nothing decentralized about the core software development.

And if Jean-luc gets hit by a bus? (Buddha Cosmos forbid)
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March 18, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
 #45729

Unfortunately @Wesley left out the context.

Please check out testnet now and look for the Asset called CIYAM.

It was not created by me - but I have 50% of the shares (as the imposter *sent* them to me).

This is our problem (not the UI).

I dont understand why you dont just send the imposter asset to genesis acct if it bothers you so much

Can you send asset to genesis? Interesting. How do you do it?
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March 18, 2014, 04:17:57 PM
 #45730


The network is decentralized, but the core software development isn't. The lead developer is Jean Luk.  There is nothing decentralized about the core software development.

And if Jean-luc gets hit by a bus? (Buddha Cosmos forbid)

What if asteroid hits Earth in a week?? Relax man, everything will be good. Fees will be lowered as needed, as many have said before me. Nothing prevents us to lower fees to even 0.00001 and lower in the future.

Sudden growth about which you are speaking - well let's all hope will happen. It would be nice to get into that situation that current fees prevent our growth in the future, but for now on leave the fees alone.
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March 18, 2014, 04:18:03 PM
 #45731

Does anyone else have their 0.8.x client, when forging, run off on its own fork and generate every single block?  This happens to me multiple times per day.  At first my client would just stop receiving new blocks; I thought it was caused by forging behind TOR, but I stopped using TOR and now every so often I just go off on a fork all by myself.  0.7.7 works fine though.

I rebooted, same thing.  Im using ubuntu.

Any ideas?  I enabled debugging but the log file doesnt really show anything.  What other diags/debugs can I enable?
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March 18, 2014, 04:20:59 PM
 #45732

CIYAM, What do you see the value of NXT being longterm? I partially agree with you, but only to a certain extent, I think the value of NXT can be a few USD max in the next 2-4 years, I'm sorry guys but 500USD isn't going to happen, unless supply is cut off.

Salsacz, I watched your video! Great work! We think a lot alike, I really appreciate the work you're doing. I'll send a tip your way when I get to a safe computer.

MyNxt.info works great, who created it? I will be passing it along to friends and family so they don't complain in a year when they "missed out" because it was too difficult to create an account.

At this moment in time the most important project for NXT's success is automated multisig gateways for the AE. Is there currently a group working on this? I can help out if you guys need a cross-language dev. If I can buy LTC or BTC with NXT I would never use BTER/Cryptsy/BTC-E again. There is a massive market here.

No outsiders care about it all anymore, development has halted, frustrated discussions without any results, prices are going to the bottom and everyone except the initial IPO holders have lost a large amount of their invested money --- is it as good as dead?

No, pull yourself together man.
I am the only one coding the core of the multisig gateway, but antanst who created NXT tipbot and http://testnet.nextblocks.info/ is helping with the web side, including google authenticator verification of withdrawals

I am a simple C programmer, so it would be great to have somebody who can refactor it into a different language. I am currently doing a total refactor now that I got the proof of concept working. Based on antanst's feedback (he didnt like the single gateway reliance for 1 second on deposit into sweep acct), I am in the process of abstracting and generalizing acct creation so it will be possible to manage a separate multisig acct for each user's deposits. As they trade assets, their deposit acct balance wont correlate to their holdings, so the deposit accts add up to being a single virtual acct for the entire gateway.

I plan on balancing the multigateway deposits so that over time, it will be evenly spread out across the accounts to provide minimal incentives for hackers to try to crack multiple hardened server locations at the same time. Fragmented multisig!

If there was an independent implementation of the multisig gateway, then when all three servers come to consensus as to a withdrawal, any bug in my code wont be replicated on all the servers, so while it might take a while to totally synchronize the algorithms, it will provide yet another redundancy.

As far as NXT price goes, It is hard to imagine that NXT wont reach $1 USD at some point in the future, however NXT is under attack as evidenced by the large amount of recent trolling, some a lot more convincing than emule. Expect volatility ahead as the anti-NXT guys that have accumulated a large amount from previous spikes and dumps still have reserves. NXT represents a big threat to the establishment, bitcoin and fiat, and it does not take much to double the price or halve the price. A volatile price shakes confidence. Look at what the fiat guys did to bitcoin!

As far as active developers on major crypto goes the following is my ranking:
1) Bitcoin - not sure, but assuming there are quite a few
2) NXT - I know of at least a dozen devs, probably a lot are working in stealth mode
3) Ripple - 10 devs/tech guys https://www.ripplelabs.com/team/
4) etherium - Huh
5) counterparty - 3 devs
6) mastercoin - 3? devs not as good as counterparty but they have thousands of BTC)
7) DRK - 1 dev + 1
8  Anoncoin - 1 dev maybe 2?
9) emunie - 1 dev

There are other coins with a couple of devs, but most altcoins dont even have a single fulltime developer! I apologize to things like colored coins and others that I am sure exist, but I only use coinmarketcap to get candidates (other than ETH and emunie)
<rant>
Those of you that are not programmers, I ask a favor. Please stop complaining. It really doesnt help morale at all and it is counterproductive. If you want to help, test. If you cant test, then just lurk instead of bitching. You do want to help dont you?
</rant>
Now if you are invested in NXT to quickly double your investment, please join emule. The scope of NXT is quite a bit larger than a 3 week project. If you do not understand this, I suggest sell. If you like centralized organization, there is mastercoin and emunie for you. They are very centralized. You could always invest in XRP, but then again there is that 55 billion they have promised to giveaway, but that still leaves another 45 billion that could hit the market at any time. People complain about a few accts with 50 million NXT??? What is a few people having 5% each compared to a single organization controlling 93% of inventory???

NXT price will not go in a straight line. People will buy the rumor and sell the news, like what happened with mastercoin. It is no surprise that the price goes down when they release. The reason is that it was preannounced, everybody knew it was going to come out. So everybody who is into that sort of thing already purchased it before the release, who was left to buy it? Nobody. That is why the price went down. Day trading 101.

NXT is a currency. Yes of course it is. Everybody can see their NXT balance. There is a price in the markets. You can send NXT to people. Anybody that says NXT is not a currency is being silly.

NXT is a platform. Yes of course it is. I built nodecoin not out of thin air, but on top of NXT. It took a day of coding. This shows the power of NXT, I am just a simple C programmer. Imagine what somebody with real skills could do!

NXT is a decentralized asset exchange. Yes of course it is. We can all see it on testnet.

NXT is a <fill in the blank>. Yes of course it is. NXT enables things. NXT is like the internet. Does anybody say that email IS the internet or that the internet IS email? Is the internet http? Is http the internet? Is bittorrent the internet? Is the internet bittorent? Is ...

I hope you get the idea. There are literally a thousand things that can be built on top of NXT. One of the reasons why I starting coding again is that I wanted to create a developers kit to make it easy for other simple C programmers to create stuff. I was a little rusty at first and all this crypto decentralized stuff was new so I had a steep learning curve, but I am getting in to gear so if I can stop getting distracted by all this nonsense in this thread I could be pretty productive.

However, when there is a serious threat to NXT, I need to respond and the level of insidious undermining of confidence in NXT that is going on has gotten to a point where I have to take time out of programming.

If NXT is dead, then everything other than bitcoin is dead. BCNext is gone, but was he ever really here? Actually I dont think he was ever on this thread. In any case, jean-luc is our BCNext now. He is here to stay and if you havent noticed, he keeps cranking out release after release. His code is so nice and clean, I am even tempted to learn Java! If jean-luc was the only developer, NXT would still survive. However, we have so many more contributors. True many left for other projects, but that only makes sense if you are after the big score. Going from nothing to a few millions. Sure, nice if you can get it, but what happens when the price of the new fantastic NXT clone comes out and ** gasp ** nobody becomes a millionaire? The people that jumped ship wont stick around long as they have proven that they are quick to abandon.

Anyway, we all know that the initial distribution wasnt great. However, it is much, much better than ripple. NXT isnt perfect, it is what it is. If you dont like it, please sell and leave us in peace. For whatever its worth, it is my opinion that NXT is better than any of the alternatives and my multisig gateways and other add on services will not be available for any NXT clones, regardless of who makes them. Without real world gateways, NXT is confined to crypto land. With real world gateways, NXT can expand into the real world. The multigateway to other cryptos is just a start.

Anyway, please bookmark this or whatever and use it for anti-FUD. I am tired of repeating myself. gotta get to work

James

P.S. back to the NXT is like the internet analogy. Assuming you agree with me on that, please estimate how much owning some percentage of the actual internet would be worth. Owning NXT would be like that. Long term real estate thinking is what you need to have. NXT is raw land now, bulldozers, construction workers, big mess. If you dont like messy things, sell NXT Smiley

James you have my vote for the best post of this entire thread! Cheesy
This should be put up on the front page so everybody can see it and no one forgets it.
Thanks for everything you are doing for NXT!
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March 18, 2014, 04:22:57 PM
 #45733


It should not only tied to the size of  the blockchain but also to the computational effort a node must perform to include this transaction.

EXACT

"Keep incentivized network"

interesting... what do you mean by computational effort?  It seems I am missing an aspect of something here.

must be distributed the cost of maintaining stimulated the "green, secure and decentralized network"

for example

Nxt% Fee per current transactions
Alias ​​Fee services (For example per bytes)
Nxt% Fee per AE transactions

and so on ....

How The network is worth to maintain?

How many minimum nodes are needed?
How much electricity does it cost?
How many minimum transactions contemplated

Well explained. Smiley
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March 18, 2014, 04:24:37 PM
 #45734


I don't want to base a decision to use a platform on some arbitrary decision that may or may not happen in the future. I have no faith in the decentralized developers to make this decision correctly in the future. I want to know now what would happen in the future before I decide to waste any more time believing in this product's potential.

Then you must also have to believe that the Devs are immune to/don't understand the effects of market forces.

Do you honestly think the fee won't change if it costs $620,000 to issue an asset (to use your example)?



Well the stance some of us are trying to make is to move to .1 as lowest fee and scale up from there based on a multiplier of how much bigger in bytes a transaction is compared to byte size of a NXT transfer.  Then in the future we just have to change 1 figure to scale everything.

But everyone  HAS to admit that .1 is high, at least for long term.  Consider BTC now and how extremely low fees are.  This is because BTC is still in mining phase now; consider what BTC will look like is 2140 when no more coins are generated and miners are then paid only in fees.  Hell, consider what will happen to mining soon when block subsidy is halved again - drastic ROI change.  Does anyone know when this happens again?

Anyway, yes .1 for now, and a sliding scale based on byte size is what we are suggesting.  With a vision for the long term of what those numbers should be lowered to.  The thought is that the lower the transaction fee, the higher the utility.
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March 18, 2014, 04:27:24 PM
 #45735


It should not only tied to the size of  the blockchain but also to the computational effort a node must perform to include this transaction.

EXACT

"Keep incentivized network"

interesting... what do you mean by computational effort?  It seems I am missing an aspect of something here.

must be distributed the cost of maintaining stimulated the "green, secure and decentralized network"

for example

Nxt% Fee per current transactions
Alias ​​Fee services (For example per bytes)
Nxt% Fee per AE transactions

and so on ....

How The network is worth to maintain?

How many minimum nodes are needed?
How much electricity does it cost?
How many minimum transactions contemplated

Well explained. Smiley

I dont understand a bit how these correlate to any defined computational effort.  How are some transactions more computationally intense than others?  Also, consider that AM are periodically purged, so perhaps their fee structure should be a little different somehow?  (smaller, larger, not sure)

FTR, I am 100% against charging fees based on amount of NXT being transferred.
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March 18, 2014, 04:29:25 PM
 #45736

But everyone  HAS to admit that .1 is high, at least for long term.  Consider BTC now and how extremely low fees are.  This is because BTC is still in mining phase now; consider what BTC will look like is 2140 when no more coins are generated and miners are then paid only in fees.  Hell, consider what will happen to mining soon when block subsidy is halved again - drastic ROI change.  Does anyone know when this happens again?

BTC is POW coin and will still require computation/electricity once the mining phase is over.  It costs me absolutely nothing to run Nxt software on my computer, as my system is already running regardless if I run nxt node or not, and my bandwidth is unlimited.
 

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March 18, 2014, 04:31:30 PM
 #45737


I don't want to base a decision to use a platform on some arbitrary decision that may or may not happen in the future. I have no faith in the decentralized developers to make this decision correctly in the future. I want to know now what would happen in the future before I decide to waste any more time believing in this product's potential.

Then you must also have to believe that the Devs are immune to/don't understand the effects of market forces.

Do you honestly think the fee won't change if it costs $620,000 to issue an asset (to use your example)?


Personally I value BrianNowhere's opinion.  Although I would like to see him offer some more solutions rather than state how Ripple is better in this way or that.  On a side note, I personally know several of the Ripple Lab developers here in the silicon valley.  I don't trust Ripple, they are a for profit company backed by VC's, they have a stockpile of reserve Ripple to use whenever they want.  They can issue new Ripple whenever they want.  They can be shut down by the US government at any moment and all be arrested.  They could be acquired by Google tomorrow.  They have close to zero street credibility.  They didn't release their source code until they were all but dead and completely discredited. There are no Ripple enthusiasts (other than BrianNowhere  Wink  Emunie has so many issues and the UK government can arrest Dan tomorrow and the project is dead, totally closed source, and price controlled.  I like Nxt for all the reasons they are not Ripple or Emunie.  At this point I wouldn't care if Nxt goes to $1Mil marketcap, it's about focusing on usability and projects like DAC, NxtCash, Nodecoin, AT, Parallel Blockchain, CCT get me excited.  That is my opinion.
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March 18, 2014, 04:36:54 PM
Last edit: March 18, 2014, 05:03:17 PM by punkrock
 #45738

>>> Official sales thread and more pictures<<<

Price per item: 800 NXT / 0.05 BTC
Available items: 20

Worldwide shipping from Germany.


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March 18, 2014, 04:38:09 PM
 #45739

msin, I agree with you on every point you made except the part where you said you wouldn't mind if the Nxt market cap went to $1 mil.

Nxt whales have already taken $18 million of market cap out of Nxt from 50 million to 32 million today. Nxt needs new investors and needs the market cap to grow NOW. Nxt needs that market cap (price of NXT) to grow in order to attract new investors.

NXT Whales. Stop Dumping and give Nxt time to release AE. Thanks. You've taken your profit. Now invest in the future of Nxt.
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March 18, 2014, 04:38:13 PM
 #45740

But everyone  HAS to admit that .1 is high, at least for long term.  Consider BTC now and how extremely low fees are.  This is because BTC is still in mining phase now; consider what BTC will look like is 2140 when no more coins are generated and miners are then paid only in fees.  Hell, consider what will happen to mining soon when block subsidy is halved again - drastic ROI change.  Does anyone know when this happens again?

BTC is POW coin and will still require computation/electricity once the mining phase is over.  It costs me absolutely nothing to run Nxt software on my computer, as my system is already running regardless if I run nxt node or not, and my bandwidth is unlimited.
 

It's funny the other day I was on my dedicated Nxt node forging computer (I often forget it's even on), it's a Gigabyte Brix that sits in the corner of my desk.  I decided to sync my Bitcoin wallet on the same machine.  When I opened bitcoin-qt I thought my Brix was going to explode.  CPU 100%, Fan running full blast, everything completely slow.  I quickly shutdown bitcoin-qt and let the machine relax running Nxt.  I then sent out some Nxt donations which went out instantly and sat back and drank a beer, wondering why BTC is so popular.
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