NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[klee]

Nodecoins are a cancer - time will tell if I am right or wrong...

Cancer? Why? Nxt is meant to have coins built on top of it.

There are coins made by using the AM feature (see CfB's abandoned effort), parallel chain coins and nodecoin.
Nodecoin is parasitic IMO..

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[LiQio]

Crypto Review Completed, please read.  Thanks to Jesse James for completing with thorough review and BloodyRookie for reference.
...

Bloody big thanks to both of these awesome people!
Thank you very, very much! 

+1000

[albefero]

can i please haz some testNXT?

thanks

879518353350760929

7,5K sent. Enjoy!

[wesleyh]

Nodecoins are a cancer - time will tell if I am right or wrong...

Cancer? Why? Nxt is meant to have coins built on top of it.

There are coins made by using the AM feature (see CfB's abandoned effort), parallel chain coins and nodecoin.
Nodecoin is parasitic IMO..

If you think so, however, it's not a cancer, it cannot kill Nxt. It's simply 1 coin.

[Eadeqa]

Crypto Review Completed, please read.  Thanks to Jesse James for completing with thorough review and BloodyRookie for reference.

From Jesse James:

"I spent some quality time reviewing the core crypto NXT relies on.  As part of my review I re-implemented the relevant algorithms https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 using a different approach in a different language to make sure I understood everything deeply.  Although the implementation NXT uses doesn't follow certain algorithm specifications to the letter, the deviations noted (motivated by simplicity and/or performance) seemed reasonable and in general nothing stuck out as a red flag.  There was one bug in the signature generation function (that NXT is aware of and currently working around) for which I've provided a patch (or more precisely tweaked BloodyRookie's proposed patch).  It should be should be safe for devs to incorporate this patch at their convenience.

Review: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521116

Code: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 "

Wow.

I trust this guy more than C++ converted to Java implementation that we are using right now.

I talked to both the original C++ author and Java converter and both seem to be clueless, really.

[Zahlen]

Hey everyone. I'd like to clarify my understanding of Nxt's TF approach to proof of stake. I wrote it out in the TF part 2 thread, hope folks can comment/correct and help me improve my understanding. I'm unable to keep up with the main thread, sorry if all this has been brought up before. Thanks!

[rdanneskjoldr]

I am quite surprised at some people who are worried that nodecoin will take over NXT.

+1

I just dont want to see Nxt, basing its security on a PoW coin. I think we should first think how make Nxt safe for itself.
And other coins people will create will help protecting the network too.

[igmaca]

I am quite surprised at some people who are worried that nodecoin will take over NXT. I am writing software to make it look like a coin, act like a coin and it seems I've done a pretty good job

I plan on using my 180+ servers to implement Ddos protection and guarding of the pool server and multigateway servers from direct contact with random clients. While this wont be as good as a 20,000 node NXT network, it should pose quite a barrier to Ddosers who want to disrupt the pool server or multigateway servers.

Since I will be incurring real world costs for the servers to host pool servers and one of the multigateway servers (need to find two non-USA hosts for the others) and I will be getting 1% of nodecoins mined for pool costs and 1% as royalty, it is in my interest to make nodecoins worth more than nothing. After all, if I cant make it self-funding, who will pay for the 180+ servers? Therefore, I liked the suggestion of pricing multigateway services and any other services that the servers I am paying for provide, in nodecoins. Assuming a .01NXT value for a nodecoin, the 2% will generate around 2000 NXT per day. This will be far short of covering the server costs, but at least its a start. nodecoin is a private token that just happens to reward people who operate NXT nodes and . Already there is an account that is trying to get more nodecoins by submitting once per second. I need a way to prevent spam and charging nodecoins is a good way. For normal usage, all the nodecoins you need to be able to use the services will be obtainable just by running nodeminer.

It is clear that nodecoins are very polarizing, I might as well call it a globalwarming-coin!

Like it or not, if ~10% of the people run nodeminer, I estimate EVERYONE with an active node will get their nodecoins. Around 5 per day! just imagine the giant market dumps the big holders will be able to do. A sell wall of 50 nodecoins. The horrors.

nodecoin is a subset of multigateway, with a simple PoN (proof of node). Anybody can do this in a day or two like I did. nodecoin cannot replace NXT. That is like saying that Delta airline bonus miles will replace USD. At 100,000 coins per day, it will take 10,000 days to be fully released, thats 27 years.  You can believe the people that claim that somehow nodecoin will magically replace NXT even though it is built on top of NXT, or you can believe me.

A few weeks back there was all this angst and worry that with transaction fees dropping there would be no incentive to forge. I said I know of an idea that will fix that. I did.

James

P.S. If somebody wants to pay me to kill nodecoin all you have to do is pay the server costs.

That I understand your thought is to defray the costs of active nodes using active nodes for multigateway services.
That means to lease the node for several services and receive node coins for this services


I'm wrong?

[rdanneskjoldr]

can i please haz some testNXT?

thanks

879518353350760929

10k sent

[mcjavar]

A bit of positivity !

Here some donation I did




I usually don't say it, you know... because I want to stay anonymous

Thank you, stranger! Keep up the good work!!

[pandaisftw]

@wesleyh: Did you see my PM's regarding asset aliases and categorizing? Obviously, it's not a super-priority right now, but would be good to have it integrated into your client before AE is released on mainnet.

[grandpa_seth]

Nodecoins are a cancer - time will tell if I am right or wrong...

Cancer? Why? Nxt is meant to have coins built on top of it.

There are coins made by using the AM feature (see CfB's abandoned effort), parallel chain coins and nodecoin.
Nodecoin is parasitic IMO..

If you think so, however, it's not a cancer, it cannot kill Nxt. It's simply 1 coin.

1 coin can't kill Nxt. But nodecoin is like a huge pimple or a rash of pimples on a gorgeous beautiful girl.

The analogy of airline miles don't threaten USD is incorrect to me because the dollar is established and used by everyone. Nxt is not. Nxt is new and struggling/hoping for
mass adoption and integration one day. Nodecoin because given to us for free will take the luster and value from Nxt like the pimples do.

[L5Society]

these are questions for which it would be nice to have clear and concise answers:

1) why is the forging mechanism insufficient for protecting the nxt network?

2) what behavior does the nodecoin encourage? is it possible to encourage this behavior through a modification of the forging mechanism?

3) who will pay for nodecoins once they are mined? why will they pay for nodecoins?

4) the answer to #3 above, should also help to answer this question: does the existence of nodecoins dilute the value of 1 nxt?

[pandaisftw]

I don't even think it was supposed to be this big, for all we know this actually might have started as a get rich quick scam by BCNext.

R u sure that u r not Emule?

This is just to clarify, I AM NOT EMULE.

I am someone who had hopes for NXT as the crypto 2.0, but not anymore.

I invested a large amount of fiat into it, I want NXT to be succesful but seeing how this community actually works has turned me off.

What about you? Are you sure you're not BCNext posing under a different surname?

If you'd like heres a little about me:

At 15 I taught myself HTML (yes I can code whole website systems just with notepad), Flash 5 (I'm old), some Python, Java, and even a bit of C++.
I taught myself fine arts and have become a master artist since then.
I have also been an electrician, electronics engineer (not quite good), was majoring in electrical engineering but recently my studies have refocused to Biology, Biotechnology, and Physics.

So no, I am not emule. I am just a well rounded human being that wants the current economic structure to be reset to something that will help all of humanity and not just the chosen few.
NXT seemed like a good idea up until now that the community can't even get together to decide on something as simple as "Is it a coin or an exchange or a potato or a banana?"

Good day

Hm... for someone so "educated", you either cannot see the bigger picture, or are deliberately trying to ignore it. When you first came into this thread, did you even read the first post? Because that should have signified that NXT is not simply a "coin". It can be used as one, but it also can provide many other decentralized services. The Asset Exchange has already encouraged a ton of economic activity (look at the IPOs, nodecoin, etc.) despite not even being released yet.

[jl777]

Nodecoins wall of text *snip snip

James

Sorry for the scissors. Trying to keep the walls under control.

I read nearly, but not quite every page in this thread. Despite that, I have to say it was up to this point and sort of still is mysterious as to how exactly nodecoins are to be implemented and what their role will effectively be in the grand scheme. Your post clarifies some things and that helps. I suggest writing out a FAQ to briefly cover the biggest concerns and misunderstandings that have been brought up here.

 I still believe a fee system being integrated into the core to reward nodes would be the smartest choice. It seems like your way just replaces one problem with another. If someone or a group were accumulate large amounts of nodecoins over time, then when we want to increase the infrastructure by buying up/pumping the nodecoin price in any which way, if thats even functionally sustainable, in order to incentivise growing out operational nodes, the accumulators dump on the market and essentially steal the incentive. Then the system of nodes is at the whim of nodecoin market behaviour, including manipulation.... seems like a contorted version of the selfish miner issue, but maybe worse. The network needs to be dynamic and flexible, but not at the great expense of stability.

I have no control over what goes into the NXT core.

For someone to acquire any meaningful amount of nodecoins, they will have to buy them via AE. This means NXT being paid for nodecoins, indirectly supporting the NXT network. If there are people like this, odds are that the NXT network is strong. At current network size, I estimate that the average people will get is 5 to 10 nodecoins per day.

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

[rdanneskjoldr]

Nodecoins wall of text *snip snip

James

Sorry for the scissors. Trying to keep the walls under control.

I read nearly, but not quite every page in this thread. Despite that, I have to say it was up to this point and sort of still is mysterious as to how exactly nodecoins are to be implemented and what their role will effectively be in the grand scheme. Your post clarifies some things and that helps. I suggest writing out a FAQ to briefly cover the biggest concerns and misunderstandings that have been brought up here.

 I still believe a fee system being integrated into the core to reward nodes would be the smartest choice. It seems like your way just replaces one problem with another. If someone or a group were accumulate large amounts of nodecoins over time, then when we want to increase the infrastructure by buying up/pumping the nodecoin price in any which way, if thats even functionally sustainable, in order to incentivise growing out operational nodes, the accumulators dump on the market and essentially steal the incentive. Then the system of nodes is at the whim of nodecoin market behaviour, including manipulation.... seems like a contorted version of the selfish miner issue, but maybe worse. The network needs to be dynamic and flexible, but not at the great expense of stability.

I have no control over what goes into the NXT core.

For someone to acquire any meaningful amount of nodecoins, they will have to buy them via AE. This means NXT being paid for nodecoins, indirectly supporting the NXT network. If there are people like this, odds are that the NXT network is strong. At current network size, I estimate that the average people will get is 5 to 10 nodecoins per day.

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

But wont all coins people run on top of Nxt,help the network in that aspect??Why not let it happen naturally with Nxt being safe by itself??Instead of relying in one coin artificially put there,and making Nxt dependent on Nodecoins.

[wesleyh]

@wesleyh: Did you see my PM's regarding asset aliases and categorizing? Obviously, it's not a super-priority right now, but would be good to have it integrated into your client before AE is released on mainnet.

yes i will reply to you tomorrow, sorry for the delay!

[Eadeqa]

Crypto Review Completed, please read.  Thanks to Jesse James for completing with thorough review and BloodyRookie for reference.

From Jesse James:

"I spent some quality time reviewing the core crypto NXT relies on.  As part of my review I re-implemented the relevant algorithms https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 using a different approach in a different language to make sure I understood everything deeply.  Although the implementation NXT uses doesn't follow certain algorithm specifications to the letter, the deviations noted (motivated by simplicity and/or performance) seemed reasonable and in general nothing stuck out as a red flag.  There was one bug in the signature generation function (that NXT is aware of and currently working around) for which I've provided a patch (or more precisely tweaked BloodyRookie's proposed patch).  It should be should be safe for devs to incorporate this patch at their convenience.

Review: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521116

Code: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 "

Wow.

I trust this guy more than C++ converted to Java implementation that we are using right now.

I talked to both the original C++ author and Java converter and both seem to be clueless, really.

Can we at least fix signing now?

public static final boolean sign(byte[] v, byte[] h, byte[] x, byte[] s) {
    // v = (x - h) s  mod q
    int w, i;
    byte[] h1 = new byte[32], x1 = new byte[32];
    byte[] tmp1 = new byte[64];
    byte[] tmp2 = new byte[64];

    // Don't clobber the arguments, be nice!
    cpy32(h1, h);
    cpy32(x1, x);

    // Reduce modulo group order
    byte[] tmp3=new byte[32];
    divmod(tmp3, h1, 32, ORDER, 32);
    divmod(tmp3, x1, 32, ORDER, 32);

    // v = x1 - h1
    // If v is negative, add the group order to it to become positive.
    // If v was already positive we don't have to worry about overflow
    // when adding the order because v < ORDER and 2*ORDER < 2^256
    mula_small(v, x1, 0, h1, 32, -1);
    mula_small(v, v , 0, ORDER, 32, 1);

    // tmp1 = (x-h)*s mod q
    mula32(tmp1, v, s, 32, 1);
    divmod(tmp2, tmp1, 64, ORDER, 32);

    for (w = 0, i = 0; i < 32; i++)
        w |= v = tmp1;
    return w != 0;
}

This would also apply to javascript version that wesleh would use.

[jl777]

Cfb

I claim the 100,000 NXT bounty for finding the fatal flaw in NXT.

nodecoin!

yes, nodecoin will kill NXT. As soon as nodecoin comes out there will be no need for NXT. Lets ignore the fact that without NXT, nodecoin cannot exist, but the consensus is that nodecoin is a NXT killer. It doesnt exist outside of NXT, but it kills NXT.

Quite magical actually.

James

[jl777]

I have no control over what goes into the NXT core.

For someone to acquire any meaningful amount of nodecoins, they will have to buy them via AE. This means NXT being paid for nodecoins, indirectly supporting the NXT network. If there are people like this, odds are that the NXT network is strong. At current network size, I estimate that the average people will get is 5 to 10 nodecoins per day.

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

+1

James, please ignore the trolls and keep up the fine work. 

I did not like the fact I was making pimples and cancer, so I deleted all the code. Its all gone

James