[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

V12.1 (Non-binding) Wallet Terms Vote:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/non-binding-wallet-terms-vote.8715/

[Kienbui]

First sentinel command. My brain is exploding from what this thing is capable of .

12:08:38 {master} ~/Desktop/projects/sentinel$ ./sentinel-cli --create="user" --name="blockchain-contract-evan-2016" --revision=1 --subclass="employee" --dash_monthly=233.32 --first_name="evan" --last_name="duffield" --address1="123 w. main ave" --address2="#123" --city="Phoenix" --state="Arizona" --country="US"

12:25:04 {master} ~/Desktop/projects/sentinel$ ./sentinel-cli --events_process=1
Processing queued events
('17', '7', '1461350402', None, None)
loaded event successfully
loaded govobj successfully
prepared
 --cmd :  
        mngovernance prepare  1 1461352124 blockchain-contract-evan-2016 5b227b226c6173745f6e616d65223a20226475666669656c64222c202263697479223a202250686 f656e6978222c202266697273745f6e616d65223a20226576616e222c202276657273696f6e223a 20312c2022646173685f6d6f6e74686c79223a20223233332e3332222c2022636f756e747279223 a20225553222c20226164647265737331223a202231323320772e206d61696e20617665222c2022 6164647265737332223a202223313233222c20227374617465223a20224172697a6f6e61227d225 d;

LoL care to explain what this is to us mere mortals  

Let me try to get a stab at why this is cool.
#1 This is a contract  ... this is where most coins would start jumping up and down spewing Ether and Gas and sending out press releases....Evan says not good enough
#2 This is a contract tied to an identity(user)
#3 Since an identity is verified by name/address/city/state it opens the door for a loan against that identity.

Now we are closer to what Toknormal is pushing for, flowscripts, like what is described in the "proof of labor" proposal.  Basically, this allows a future contract tied to an identity.  Or a way to start production with funds now payable in labor in the future.  (I barely grasp this myself, but it is the start of something very big.)

See how it is cool now?

anyone out there from kickstarter?  

anyone out there want to start a DASH powered kickstarter?

What I actually figured out how to do is create a decentralized relational database application using crypto, that's what sentinel is. So then we can create new types and setup relationships between them. But we'll be able to do that on the python side and on the fly.

Just to show you how insanely powerful this system is, I'll document how to setup 12.1 under the new system. First we'll create a governance object type of User(firstname, lastname, address1, address2, city, state, country), then we'll create subclasses of Employee and Manager.

So then to get network employment under this model we'll require Employees be managed by a primary and secondary manager. Employees will pick their primary and secondary managers, then negotiate a salary. Once each of them agree, they will be employed by the network.

Next there are no generic funding proposals or contracts anymore, there's only expense reports. These are reimbursed if the managers agree. So if I fly to a conference I would submit separate expense reports for each of the items (plane ticket, car rental, etc). What's really nice about this is it also solves the tax issues with working for the network. We'll be able to query the network and print out an exact report of what happened to file. In most countries we shouldn't be paying taxes when we're being reimbursed for a company expense.

This system can also assign reputation to users, companies, groups. We can start building the framework for evolution. The plan is I would have a record like "user-eduffield" that's also an employee and in the record there's a url to my personal server. We'll have Amazon AMIs and other images of a full-node based private server, these will allow you login and see your balance in Dash and USD. Then we can use robots to move money between USD (cryptocapital) and Dash (polo). After the transactions happen, the money is removed from the exchanges and stored locally.

Then we'll add user accounts to this system, so I could add my wife for example and then restrict her spending or something   .

This is like "Phase I" of our development (~6-10 months from having this thing below) , something like a generic decentralized bank-like entity. We want everyone to be able to take part of masternode shares programs and earn interest. I calculate the network should be able to pay in excess of 5% interest rate. It's far better than investing in the stock market at this point.



Phase II is where we'll have multiple user GUIs, masternode GUIs, business GUIs, etc. We want everything to be highly accessible and easy to use. The whole reason all of this will work well is because we'll be able to just query the database locally and get whatever data we want. How many active users are there? How many businesses? How much is being spent on holiday X?

Sound ambiguity!

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

[Cryptorials]

This Sentinel thing looks very exciting and interesting - great work! It could really increase productivity and make the governance system more like a real business structure. Great alternative to Ethereum's DAOs too, which are becoming popular and getting a lot of attention at the moment but still don't have such varied roles and structures.

But it could also lead to rampant corruption, cronyism, and people just living off their reputation rather than doing the actual work. I think this is a question that must be considered carefully:

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

Because in a real business managers answer to somebody (the CEO), but here there will be no CEO and I presume many of the employees will end up (at least at first) being people with other jobs and other business interests who work for DASH part-time, which only increases the risk of conflict of interest and so on.

[ddink7]

First sentinel command. My brain is exploding from what this thing is capable of .

12:08:38 {master} ~/Desktop/projects/sentinel$ ./sentinel-cli --create="user" --name="blockchain-contract-evan-2016" --revision=1 --subclass="employee" --dash_monthly=233.32 --first_name="evan" --last_name="duffield" --address1="123 w. main ave" --address2="#123" --city="Phoenix" --state="Arizona" --country="US"

12:25:04 {master} ~/Desktop/projects/sentinel$ ./sentinel-cli --events_process=1
Processing queued events
('17', '7', '1461350402', None, None)
loaded event successfully
loaded govobj successfully
prepared
 --cmd :  
        mngovernance prepare  1 1461352124 blockchain-contract-evan-2016 5b227b226c6173745f6e616d65223a20226475666669656c64222c202263697479223a202250686 f656e6978222c202266697273745f6e616d65223a20226576616e222c202276657273696f6e223a 20312c2022646173685f6d6f6e74686c79223a20223233332e3332222c2022636f756e747279223 a20225553222c20226164647265737331223a202231323320772e206d61696e20617665222c2022 6164647265737332223a202223313233222c20227374617465223a20224172697a6f6e61227d225 d;

LoL care to explain what this is to us mere mortals  

Let me try to get a stab at why this is cool.
#1 This is a contract  ... this is where most coins would start jumping up and down spewing Ether and Gas and sending out press releases....Evan says not good enough
#2 This is a contract tied to an identity(user)
#3 Since an identity is verified by name/address/city/state it opens the door for a loan against that identity.

Now we are closer to what Toknormal is pushing for, flowscripts, like what is described in the "proof of labor" proposal.  Basically, this allows a future contract tied to an identity.  Or a way to start production with funds now payable in labor in the future.  (I barely grasp this myself, but it is the start of something very big.)

See how it is cool now?

anyone out there from kickstarter?  

anyone out there want to start a DASH powered kickstarter?

What I actually figured out how to do is create a decentralized relational database application using crypto, that's what sentinel is. So then we can create new types and setup relationships between them. But we'll be able to do that on the python side and on the fly.

Just to show you how insanely powerful this system is, I'll document how to setup 12.1 under the new system. First we'll create a governance object type of User(firstname, lastname, address1, address2, city, state, country), then we'll create subclasses of Employee and Manager.

So then to get network employment under this model we'll require Employees be managed by a primary and secondary manager. Employees will pick their primary and secondary managers, then negotiate a salary. Once each of them agree, they will be employed by the network.

Next there are no generic funding proposals or contracts anymore, there's only expense reports. These are reimbursed if the managers agree. So if I fly to a conference I would submit separate expense reports for each of the items (plane ticket, car rental, etc). What's really nice about this is it also solves the tax issues with working for the network. We'll be able to query the network and print out an exact report of what happened to file. In most countries we shouldn't be paying taxes when we're being reimbursed for a company expense.

This system can also assign reputation to users, companies, groups. We can start building the framework for evolution. The plan is I would have a record like "user-eduffield" that's also an employee and in the record there's a url to my personal server. We'll have Amazon AMIs and other images of a full-node based private server, these will allow you login and see your balance in Dash and USD. Then we can use robots to move money between USD (cryptocapital) and Dash (polo). After the transactions happen, the money is removed from the exchanges and stored locally.

Then we'll add user accounts to this system, so I could add my wife for example and then restrict her spending or something   .

This is like "Phase I" of our development (~6-10 months from having this thing below) , something like a generic decentralized bank-like entity. We want everyone to be able to take part of masternode shares programs and earn interest. I calculate the network should be able to pay in excess of 5% interest rate. It's far better than investing in the stock market at this point.



Phase II is where we'll have multiple user GUIs, masternode GUIs, business GUIs, etc. We want everything to be highly accessible and easy to use. The whole reason all of this will work well is because we'll be able to just query the database locally and get whatever data we want. How many active users are there? How many businesses? How much is being spent on holiday X?

Somebody has read Daemon =)

http://www.amazon.com/DAEMON-Daniel-Suarez/dp/0451228731/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1461437768&sr=8-1&keywords=daemon

[eduffield]

But it could also lead to rampant corruption, cronyism, and people just living off their reputation rather than doing the actual work. I think this is a question that must be considered carefully:

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team. As for stopping abuse, we're talking about having to get your primary and secondary manager to "sign off" on expenses. This means if you can't come to an agreement between the three of you, nothing gets paid. In the end it'll allow us to move really fast and keep abuse down to a minimum. So managers are responsible for reviewing and approving expenses, if the employee and two managers pay for something the network doesn't like, the network can talk to the management team and voice the concerns. These are going to be the primary point of contact for the network, so that's how we direct the ship.

The employees are agreeing to do a specific amount of work with their manager, so they can't just live off of the system. You have to work to get paid for it under this model. The budget system money is a scarce resource that we need to be careful about to avoid the situations you're talking about.

The nice thing is that we're going to be moving to sentinel, which is the "brain", so every part of this can be tested with trial and error. We can roll out test implementations, then revert them or tweak them. I imagine we'll be pivoting pretty quickly as we realize different goals.

[Cryptorials]

But it could also lead to rampant corruption, cronyism, and people just living off their reputation rather than doing the actual work. I think this is a question that must be considered carefully:

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team. As for stopping abuse, we're talking about having to get your primary and secondary manager to "sign off" on expenses. This means if you can't come to an agreement between the three of you, nothing gets paid. In the end it'll allow us to move really fast and keep abuse down to a minimum. So managers are responsible for reviewing and approving expenses, if the employee and two managers pay for something the network doesn't like, the network can talk to the management team and voice the concerns. These are going to be the primary point of contact for the network, so that's how we direct the ship.

The employees are agreeing to do a specific amount of work with their manager, so they can't just live off of the system. You have to work to get paid for it under this model. The budget system money is a scarce resource that we need to be careful about to avoid the situations you're talking about.

The nice thing is that we're going to be moving to sentinel, which is the "brain", so every part of this can be tested with trial and error. We can roll out test implementations, then revert them or tweak them. I imagine we'll be pivoting pretty quickly as we realize different goals.

Thanks for the answer. Its the managers just living off the system that I would worry about rather than the employees. Managers keep the employees in check, but structuring it like that seems to encourage coin holders to delegate the task to keeping check on employees to the managers - so the question remains of who will keep a check on the managers? I think its a recipe for having less oversight from MN owners on projects, but with nothing to make sure that managers are actually doing their job properly.

[eduffield]

But it could also lead to rampant corruption, cronyism, and people just living off their reputation rather than doing the actual work. I think this is a question that must be considered carefully:

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team. As for stopping abuse, we're talking about having to get your primary and secondary manager to "sign off" on expenses. This means if you can't come to an agreement between the three of you, nothing gets paid. In the end it'll allow us to move really fast and keep abuse down to a minimum. So managers are responsible for reviewing and approving expenses, if the employee and two managers pay for something the network doesn't like, the network can talk to the management team and voice the concerns. These are going to be the primary point of contact for the network, so that's how we direct the ship.

The employees are agreeing to do a specific amount of work with their manager, so they can't just live off of the system. You have to work to get paid for it under this model. The budget system money is a scarce resource that we need to be careful about to avoid the situations you're talking about.

The nice thing is that we're going to be moving to sentinel, which is the "brain", so every part of this can be tested with trial and error. We can roll out test implementations, then revert them or tweak them. I imagine we'll be pivoting pretty quickly as we realize different goals.

Thanks for the answer. Its the managers just living off the system that I would worry about rather than the employees. Managers keep the employees in check, but structuring it like that seems to encourage coin holders to delegate the task to keeping check on employees to the managers - so the question remains of who will keep a check on the managers? I think its a recipe for having less oversight from MN owners on projects, but with nothing to make sure that managers are actually doing their job properly.

I don't think we need more than 2 tiers of management at this point. There's probably about 20-30 people that will be in the current system. Research shows that communication starts to break down when there's more than 8-10 people reporting to one, after that people do a really poor job. The obvious choice to keep managers in check is to allow the network to talk to them and part of their job is making sure communication isn't breaking down and that the network knows exactly what's going on and why... they need to keep you guys happy in order to continue working the network.

Eventually this model won't be big enough. At that point we'll move to the next phase of the system, with some sort of elected board, which is responsible for hiring the managers and directing the project. Centralized control, but the network again will have control over the elected board. So control always comes back to the network.

[WastedLTC]

.....
So control always comes back to the network.

Some fantastic stuff...    I love when someone gets sparked by the endless possibilities of the thing they are working on...   

good times!

[Solarminer]

But it could also lead to rampant corruption, cronyism, and people just living off their reputation rather than doing the actual work. I think this is a question that must be considered carefully:

Who can be manager? And how can we incentivize managers to make right decision?

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team. As for stopping abuse, we're talking about having to get your primary and secondary manager to "sign off" on expenses. This means if you can't come to an agreement between the three of you, nothing gets paid. In the end it'll allow us to move really fast and keep abuse down to a minimum. So managers are responsible for reviewing and approving expenses, if the employee and two managers pay for something the network doesn't like, the network can talk to the management team and voice the concerns. These are going to be the primary point of contact for the network, so that's how we direct the ship.

The employees are agreeing to do a specific amount of work with their manager, so they can't just live off of the system. You have to work to get paid for it under this model. The budget system money is a scarce resource that we need to be careful about to avoid the situations you're talking about.

The nice thing is that we're going to be moving to sentinel, which is the "brain", so every part of this can be tested with trial and error. We can roll out test implementations, then revert them or tweak them. I imagine we'll be pivoting pretty quickly as we realize different goals.

Thanks for the answer. Its the managers just living off the system that I would worry about rather than the employees. Managers keep the employees in check, but structuring it like that seems to encourage coin holders to delegate the task to keeping check on employees to the managers - so the question remains of who will keep a check on the managers? I think its a recipe for having less oversight from MN owners on projects, but with nothing to make sure that managers are actually doing their job properly.

I don't think we need more than 2 tiers of management at this point. There's probably about 20-30 people that will be in the current system. Research shows that communication starts to break down when there's more than 8-10 people reporting to one, after that people do a really poor job. The obvious choice to keep managers in check is to allow the network to talk to them and part of their job is making sure communication isn't breaking down and that the network knows exactly what's going on and why... they need to keep you guys happy in order to continue working the network.

Eventually this model won't be big enough. At that point we'll move to the next phase of the system, with some sort of elected board, which is responsible for hiring the managers and directing the project. Centralized control, but the network again will have control over the elected board. So control always comes back to the network.

Evan,

We are already at the next stage with the elected board.  The board members are the masternodes.  They have a stake in the company(investment in Dash) so they make the best decision for Dash.  I see the only way this works efficiently is to keep the masternodes in control of voting for how funds are allocated to which projects, which is really the only driver to make people work anyway.

There is no need to worry about expansion.  We pay a company/person directly to do a job - they internally manage themselves.  They know that if they are not productive they will not be paid.  And if any of their employees fail they can be replaced as an internal decision.  I suggested that we could add the option to split this payment up into several dash addresses with a ratio determined by the proposal owner.   This would allow the funds to go directly to all company personnel at once without needing additional involvement from the proposal owner.

A typical company will have a board of directors, but many are inside directors with stock options or a share in the company. This encourages them to act in the best interest of the company.  If we have the employers/project managers/elected board the only worry they have is not getting their salary.  If there are 10 members of this proxy voting party, each one would have the equivalent to the vote of 360 masternodes(total risk of $2.3 Million) - their risk is only losing future income.

I also see an issue with the concept of a consensus with a management decision to determine if an expense is covered.  The entire premise of this cool voting system that we have now is that the masternodes vote on what we fund.  If managers start making decisions, no doubt the 'budget' they need to pay these expenses will keep increasing and expenses will always be paid...because managers don't have any collateral on the line.  And who would make the decision to buy something in advance if the expense could be rejected.  All potential expenses and projects should be voted in upfront so there is no question about if they will be paid or not.  The entire reason we vote is because some projects or expenses will not be paid.

And the last point, if you have set of managers/employers hiring all the 'employees' what traits do we look for in these people?  Isn't this a total guess?  If we fund a solar farm powering X11 ASICs to donate to the foundation, would any of them have a clue where to start.  Do we now need to hire a manager expert to manage that project?  It seems crazy right?  It would make more sense to take bids from several companies - they all submit projects to the budget system.  Look at the past history, pricing, and products they propose installing.  Then masternodes vote on the best option and leave the micromanaging to the company experts that are paid for doing the work.

[toknormal]

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team

Oops.

Roadmap off the rails.

This isn't my idea of a base monetary asset, though I realise it happens to creative people from time to time.

I just would be testing my ideas out before I went public with them

[Jestah]

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team

Oops.

Roadmap off the rails.

This isn't my idea of a base monetary asset, though I realise it happens to creative people from time to time.

I just would be testing my ideas out before I went public with them

I have to admit, I'm a bit confused now.  What is DASH?

[tungfa]

DashRoundTable #5 - Evan Duffield LIVE -  April 24, 2016
Streaming live on April 24, 2016 In Episode five the guys interview Evan Duffield, Founder and Lead Developer of DASH. v12.1 is right around the corner and Evan is going to tell us all about the effort he and the rest of the team have been putting in.
He says 'This is turning into a huge deal, it should be exciting.'

http://www.dashroundtable.org/episodes/ep05/

 

[iCEBREAKER]

The new way is radically simple, the network hires managers, then managers hire employees. You guys will negotiate pay with the managers, then you're delegating much of the day-to-day operations to the project management team

Oops.

Roadmap off the rails.

I have to admit, I'm a bit confused now.  What is DASH?

The hazards of centralized Dash governance's arbitrary and random approach to development have come up before.

The sudden rebrand and pivot from Darkcoin's privacy to Dash's high tps showed everyone how things work in the Evan's Gate cult.

The High Priest receives visions, and the followers rejoice.

Dash is whatever Duffield does.  No more, no less.

IIRC that's why vertoe left the project's dev team in disgust.

NXT/JL777 unicorn/blue-sky/holy-grail scam-projects display the same bait-and-switch pattern of lofty goals being set and used for price pumps, only to be abandoned for some new shiny thing Because Reasons.

Dash investors should be asking if/when the latest Layer 2 scaling tech will be integrated.

Without segwit, Lightning, and sidechains Dash is going to be obsolete long before Evolution is done.

[splawik21]

NEW MASTERNODES ATH 3741 !

[tombtc]

Anyone else is getting confused with all this new ideas:
In a simple words: I will never ever let any managers or any other people to decide for me on what and how I am voting with my masternodes.

[Gi01]

While I agree that MN voting is a great tool, we don't have to be carried away with it

Competence is hard to develop. We can't be competent in the 100% of the fields - I don't understand a word regarding all the tech stuff but I know about mktg and mgmt.

It's extremely important for a long-term project that we are NOT all expert on anything

Delegate to win

[tungfa]

Will PinIdea unseat iBeLink in the X11 ASIC Battle?

http://dashpaymagazine.com/index.php/2016/04/15/will-pinidea-unseat-ibelink-x11-asic-battle/

[Lebubar]

Anyone else is getting confused with all this new ideas:
In a simple words: I will never ever let any managers or any other people to decide for me on what and how I am voting with my masternodes.

I agree with what you are saying. I love the budget system so much, I don't want it to change it too much, the concept is great like it is.

But I don't think, MN will only vote on manager, other wise this will look really to much to a corporate company where share holders only vote for ceo.

I think that this will help managing team, for wining (elected by MN) budget. I think Evan is throwing some idea he have during devlopment.

@Evan, I think I'm not alone here but as say before, it seems that those managers will have to much power, and this can lead to lot of problems (as say coruption, also internal war to have the power, bad decision made from a spmdof (single point of man decision failure .
But I know you, you found some interesting stuff, and nothing is definitive, you are just exposing some posibility of this sentinel system, and all will be discuss. Dash should remain decentralized budget system

[qwizzie]

The way i see it Evan is just trying to think of practical usage concepts for Dash Evolution, one of these concepts involve multiple party's that can use a relation-system within Dash Evolution
to come to an agreement or settlement.

This could be something like processing traveling expenses for salesmanagers from all kind of different corporations through our Dash system where a
corporation will just define its own corporation in Dash Evolution, add its regional salesmanagers and process the settlements in either crypto tokens or in FIAT (USD / EUR).
Salary agreements between freelancers and corporate businesses is another example and it can even include agreements between Dash as virtual corporation and people doing work for Dash.

It is however one concept, i'm sure there are a lot of other concepts that can be implemented with this new system. Concepts like formal contracts, subscriptions, token exchange,
focussed advertising, group savings, discussion groups. Concepts people or businesses will think of once Dash Evolution is up and running. All it really needs is additional coding and having it
implemented in Dash Evolution, which makes Dash Evolution an ever evolving system.

With regards to forming central panels (to be supervised by the network) in a later future, to help with managing the increasing budget proposals over time : lets just see how it goes for now.
Its way too early to worry about that i think.

[AlexGR]

I think the focus should be more on mainstream features. Funding is pretty much ok right now. Whether by a contract or MN voting, it should be ok. The bottom line is that people don't care if it's self funded or not, they care about what dash can do for them.